Mogar

Hello, I'm new to this forum, and I hope that I find a solution here.

Already went to www.rage3d.com, discuss.futuremark.com and another hardware foruns, and no one know what is happening.



My brother has a Radeon 8500 64Mb Oem, built by Ati, with 3.3 ns memory and original clocks are 250/275.


Systems tested:

1st- P3 1ghz, 512mb sdram, Asus p3v4x (via apollo pro 133a chipset with updated bios), Genius sound maker, surecom Lan card. Using 4-in-1 drivers 4.30 (don't remember correctly the version tested)


2nd- P4 1.7ghz, Intel D850GB mobo (i850 chipset, tested with original bios and p18 bios ), 2 sticks of PC800 rdram in dual channel, Genius sound maker, surecom Lan card (the 2 latest are the same than the 1st system). Latest intel application acelerator and motherboard inf drivers.


OS tested (on both machines, from a fresh install for both machines): Windows XP Pro with and without SP1, Windows 98 SE with the latest updates


No background programs unless the needed for windows work.


Drivers tested: Catalyst 2.2 ; 2.3 ; 2.4; 2.5 and 3.0 updated. The motherboard drivers were the latest avaliable at the time that I tested the catalyst (so, for the 2.2 version I probably wasn't with the latest avaliable now).


Bios tested (video) : The original that came with the card, and the 1009 retail bios avaliable in Omegacorner.


Half-life version: 1.1.1.0 retail , CS version : 1.5 ( full, not update). Downloaded again to make sure that it was uncorrupted.


Video settings: OpenGL, 1024x768 (working in 32 bit by adding -32bpp to command line), Anisotropic filtering, Anti Aliasing, truform and vsync disabled in drivers, mip map and texture details set to "quality".


Changed the following variables in the game: fps_max 100; ati_npatch 0; ati_subdiv 0.


Problem:

Low performance, specially in open maps like de_aztec and de_dust 2. Sometimes even without enemies the fps rate goes to 60 fps, and when facing 2 enemies, frame rate goes down to 40 fps (in aztec). That happens in both systems, with very little performance change.

That's not only me, I know some people that have the same issues, and didn't find a fix. At least here in Brazil, the CS players are avoiding to buy the R8500 because this issue.

Tested a Geforce SDR on the first system, and got aprox. the same performance, that should have not happened. Tested also a Geforce 2 PRO on the first system (p3), and it got much better performance than the ATI Radeon 8500 (note that I tested them before I tested the R8500)..


Tested the p4 system without the sound board, and the performance is the same.




The biggest problem is that the visual sensation is if the frames per second are below than what the fps counter is showing, and it is very bad for playing this game (aiming becomes very difficult). This is not a net bandwidth problem, since the fps are the same when playing on a 100mbit Lan.





Performance in other games/benchmarks:

8000 marks on 3dmark 2001 se for the 2nd system (p4), and 6000 for the 1st system (p3). Performance is normal in UT 2003 and Quake 3 (don't have the numbers now, but compared with a similar system).



Both systems don't have any performance problem. Checked with Sisoftware Sandra with the burnin tests, and got normal results in both systems for performance and stability.



Here are screen shots of the performance slowdown (sorry for the quality of the pic, but otherwise the pic would be too big to download).

Mogar

Before I start to hear answers like "40 fps is enough", I want to explain some things.




First, that drop is not only visible on the fps counter, you can see it and it's very bad, you feel like much less than 40 fps (some games running 20 fps looks more smooth than it). It becomes difficult to aim when there are slowdowns.



Again I say that it's not a internet connection issue. I know how to identify when the connection is bad and when it's a video card slowdown, one simple test is to turn the mouse, if the images are (don't know how to say it in English, but let's say) slow (stuttering is not the best word to describe it), it's a slowdown, and if it's the scenario moves normally, that's a connection lag.



I tested a Athlon xp 1700+ with sdram and a Geforce 2 mx 400, and it performance was much better (in counter-strike of course) than the p4 system. And clearly the p4 system has more cpu power and video card power than that Athlon. In another games, the p4 system has normal performance.




And finally, here is an technical article that proves why in cinema 24 fps is enough, in TV 30 fps is enough, but in computer games only 60 fps and beyond are enough : http://www.penstarsys.com/editor/30v60/30v60p1.htm

ToshiroOC

What drivers are you running? Does a shift to DirectX resolve the problem? Is this problem replicable over multiple installs of counterstrike? Is the problem replicable over multiple computers with the same 8500? Is the problem replicable in other Quake2 engine programs? Do you get any error messages from Dxdiag? Is there any non-standard hardware in your computer? Does this happen erratically or consistently in the same spots/circumstances? Is it consistently reproducable? Have you tried accessing the .exe directly without the -32bit color command switch, then shifting to 32 bit within the program (and why do you have to do this instead of setting it at 32 bit in the OpenGL properties?) And welcome to DH

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[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

Mogar

from what I know, the HL engine is mainly 16 bit colour, and need that -32bpp command to run in 32bit color.

actually, there is no performance difference between 16 and 32 bit color, and I haven't found anything to put in the command line that help the performance (like -heap 128000 to increase the ram usage).


Yes, the slowdown consistently happens, in same spots and circumstances, for over 3 months I've been going on different foruns to find a solution. And as said I tested after that a geforce 2 pro in the system, and got almost all the time 100 fps (only drops when there are smoke granades).


I tried (as said before, but it's too boring to read all that I wrote about the testing) in 2 different systems, running in each them 2 OSes, and got the same results (as I got normal performance in another games). I get no problems in dx diag and in smartgart everything is enabled (or else I couldn't get 8k marks in 3dmark 2001 se).

I tried dx 8.1 and 9.0 in windows xp, and directx 8.1 in windows 98. I'm now running catalyst 3.0a. And I'm not the only one that is having the exactly the same issue.


About Quake2, I don't have this game, but opengl games that I tested (RTCW, quake 3) runs perfectly, as direct3d games like unreal tournament 2003, by the way, it runs very well even turning on anisotropic filtering and anti-aliasing.

ToshiroOC

Have you emailed the various manufacturers involved? This seems pretty bad...

__________________
[img][/img]
[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

Mogar

I went to the Ati website to get support, and filled a form (first time put as powered by Ati, and they asked me to contact the manufacturer, but it's buit by Ati so I sent it again).


Let's see what they will do. I think that I've made enough tests to conclude that the card isn't deffective (other d3d games and ogl are ok), and that it's not a system fault. I think that there must be a driver problem with some systems, because I've heard about of many users in the same situation.



And since the game that my brother (the owner of the card) most plays is CS, he is thinking about buying a geforce 4 ti4200 to replace it, or even buy my Geforce 2 pro, that has more performance in this game. He is only waiting if I can get some solution for him.



I think that tomorrow I will test this card in my system, that is Amd (xp1800+ kr7a, 256mb pc2700 ram and Audigy). The only thing is that I can't reformat my hdd just to test that (too much data to backup), so the driver instalation will not be as clean as I did with the 2 previous systems (that I did a clean OS install).


I would like to know if there is any Ati driver crew person here in this forum....

ToshiroOC

There are a couple of good ATI staff here in the forums, one a core designer and one a catalyst maker (the ones I'm remembering off the top of my head) - they aren't very big posters, but they are very helpful - hopefully one of them will notice this thread and come help out...

__________________
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[color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color]
Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

bulc

I have an ati 9000 pro 128 mb built by ati and get the same problems... ive tried everything, all drivers, all bioses, overclocking.. mostly everything mogar tested... i am seriously thinking about changing my card becau i get 100 fps with a geforce 2 mx 200 wich is ridculously worse than the radeon...
ati has upset me for the second time and i regret this might have been the last time i give them a chance
=(

Mogar

Maybe if I post in the windows 2k/xp drivers section of this forum I get a faster reply.....






[Edit] New info : Run 3dmark03 and got 1012 points in the first run (using the settings that I use for playing cs). From what I've heard, that should be a good score.

Mogar

well, I will try the driver cleaner and the catalyst 3.1 (mainly because if I don't have the latest drivers Ati will say to install the latest drivers before contacting again the technical support). I received a e-mail from them asking to send again the technical support request due to changes in the form....




But I really don't think that it will work. Can't understand, normal performance in Quake3, RTCW, Unreal 2003, Warcraft 3, 3dMark 2001 SE, 3dmark03 but counter-strike.


I really would like to get a answer from anyone about this problem, I posted this thread some days ago and no solution yet (at least ToshiroOC tried to help me).





[To admins] Please move this thread to the windows 2k/xp section, because it this post is also about using the card in windows xp, and that section is more popular than that.

Mystik

You say that you've tried a GeForce 2 card in the system and almost always got 100fps..

Was this with the same (or almost) settings?
32 bpp, Aniso, Anti Aliasing, Quality details?

--

Just to let you know, CS is pushing the Half-Life engine to it's limits.. the engine itself is
old and isn't quite able to handle the level of graphics that CS has been asking from it..

Hopefully when we get an engine update (i'm hoping that's what it is) when CS:CZ comes
out, the speed will scale well with today's hardware (more optimizations and such in the
code to allow games like CS (that has poor mapping and coding itself) to run fast)..

I myself run CS with Graphical Quality in mind, except I don't use Anti-Aliasing.. i'm one for
high resolutions. =)

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For as long as the sun shines, there will always be darkness. -- me.

Mogar

Solved it..... actually not really solved.


I installed the card on my athlon (that has a geforce 2). Uninstalled Nvidia drivers, put the catalyst 3.1+control panel+ refresh rate fix.


Using the same config.cfg that I used on the p4, I get 85 fps constant, running with vsync and 4x AF. The only situation where it dropped was in aztec with 1 smoke granade and 4 enemies in my view. Much better than with the p4.


Then I installed the geforce 2 on the p4. Also 85fps constant, except with smoke granades (like on the athlon), without any fresh install, just uninstalling the Ati drivers and installing the detonator.




Conclusion : Or catalyst 3.1 fixed the cs bug that I was having with the p4, or there is a bug with the p4 and the p3 systems (look the original post to take the specs) and this card. Since both p3 and p4 performed much better with the geforce 2 on counter-strike, and the athlon performed better with the R8500 in this game