vf-

I thought that was odd him uploading that as a torrent when you can get it direct from the MS site. :o

So far I haven't had that after installing the patch Spyre posted. Then yesterday I tried installing 7.8 from the default Vista pre-installed drivers and so far haven't had it, touch wood. It's early days yet, but there was always one game that always triggered this for me which hasn't happened yet. For the short time I tested it.

Lord Dave

I've got a Q3 engine game right here and it's got both. I put it on DX, not OpenGL. Plus the box does say you need a Directx 7 compatible driver.

As for the pixel shader, I'll have to test it. Luckily for me, the Motherboard I bought with my video card has an onboard Radion XPress 200 so I can test that easily enough.
I did, however, download a program that does a large assortment of DirectX tests. Its a few years old, but it does have pixelshader 2.0 in it and I haven't failed anything yet. But I'll try switching.

Spyre

Um no Quake 3's rendering is OGL. Although the box says requires a DX7 capable card thats just because it has the feature set needed to run OGL 1.3 code. Also as OGL just handles the graphics you need Direct X for the sound and networking. Can check on Google if you like.

Which game are you talking about anyway?

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Lord Dave

Star Trek Voyager: Elite Force.
Which no longer runs. I did a reinstall of Vista to see if that might help. It didn't.
Anyway, I could have sworn theres a DirectX rendering option. I could very well be wrong.

As soon as I finish my school work, I'm going to backup all my data and wipe the HD and start fresh.

Which reminds me, does anyone have any driver suggestions for my Radion HD 2600 XT? I know there was talk about the 7.2 drivers not having the problem, but my card isn't listed in that set.

Spyre

Specs for the game:

Windows
Business Model Commercial
Minimum CPU Class Required Pentium II
Minimum OS Class Required Windows 95
Minimum RAM Required 64 MB
Media Type CD-ROM
Minimum CD-ROM Drive Speed Required 4X
Minimum DirectX Version Required DirectX 7.0a
Drivers/APIs Supported Attribute Image OpenGL
Input Devices Supported Keyboard, Mouse, Other DirectInput devices
Multiplayer Options Internet (TCP/IP), LAN, Modem
Number of Players Supported Online
Miscellaneous Attributes 3D Accelerator Required

Notice the bit about OpenGL anyway, I would most likely think its a copy protection error since Quake 3 works quite happily on Vista so that game should work without issue too. Even Quake 2 works and thats older. Use a NoCD patch and or the compatability mode of Vista to emulate a lower OS.

Vista also works with OGL 1.3 without ATI OGL drivers being installed, you can delete the ATI OGL file and Vista will play OGL games. If you delete it and the game works then its a driver bug.

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Kizo

Hi,
the first drivers I installed on my new 2600XT and freshly installed Vista Enterprise x32 were Cats 7.7. I have tried F.E.A.R., Oblivion, Tomb Raider:Anniversary, CS:S, and Lost Planet both DX9 and DX10, and so far haven't had any issues. When I tried Cats 7.8, the games locked up on me when the card was slightly OC'd, so I lowered the clocks to default, which made the games playable, but noticed that the card was getting much hotter on load (around 84-85C, while with Cats 7.7 I get 65C max).

I have to say that the majority of HD 2600XT owners have big benefits from Cats 7.8. It just didn't work out in my case (I cleaned with DriverCleaner and went back to 7.7's). So I would recommend you to go with 7.8, it is more likely that you will have better results and good stability.
Hope this helps.
Cheers

ksporry

guys, this may be interesting to try. I got it from an NVIDIA forum discussing the same problem over 113 pages!!! The last page has this post:

"Hello everyone,

I built the following system on 7/17/07:

WD Caviar 500GB Serial ATA HD 7200/16MB/SATA-3G
EVGA GeForce 8800 GTS (Video Card)
XFX nForce 680i SLI (Board)
OCZ 2028 PC8500 DDR 1066Mhz Nvidia SLI 2x1024 (RAM)
Window Vista Ultimate 64-bit
Intel Quad Core Kentsfiled 2.4Ghz Q6600 (CPU)
Ultra 600w X-Finity Power Supply

Right off the bat I did some pretty rigorous gaming on the system without any issues or concerns. Before this week I have not had any problems.

On Monday 8/13/07 I encountered my first "Display driver nvlddmkm stopped responding and has successfully recovered." Since then I have had 131 Events of the same recurrence in the Event Log. I did not install or do anything out of the norm.

-
Cooling: No heat changes occurred out of the normal, I have a dedicated extra fan card over the video card.
-
Registry Change: I have not tried any to date.
-
Link/Synced Ram: This is one area I have a few questions on, during my first boot on 7/17 it displayed my memory clock at 800Mhz, this confused me. I have not overclocked anything except in the BIOS there is an option for SLI-READY Memory I turned this to CPUOC 2% this then changed the RAM Memory clock to 1066 unlinked. After reading a few different forums and getting more desperate for a solution I decided to tweak the ram settings, first I took out one stick and changed the slot of the main chip. Surprisingly this stopped all occurrences of the problem. I let a few graphic intensive games run awhile to really give it a go. After hours of no recurrences of the problem I decided to put the other stick back in, linked 800MHz. I am still not having any problems, I will test this through the eve and tomorrow. If all goes smoothly I will up the FSB sync to 1066 and do some testing, maybe this information will help someone.
-
Aero/Classic View: When I switched to classic the problem did not change in any way.
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Hardware Exchange: Last resort.
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Turn off UAC: I have the tweak utility, but some further reading of this option comes highly not recommend.
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Drivers: I did a roll back as well as testing the latest drivers, 162.22_forceware_winvista_64bit_english_whql. This made the errors much more frequent. I also tried removing the old drivers.
"

I tink it's worth trying it out. I may have a play this weekend.

mikelll

I have an ASUS EAH2600XT and still having the same problem! Even with the hotfix from microsoft! (KB...194)

For shure I tell you...its the last time I buy an ATI product!!

I had noticed thad this thread is going on since April! And people complaining for various models of cards!

Its a shame that ATI and Microsoft cannot sit down together and fix this issues for good!

I have a solution for the problem! My product is in warranty period! So I will go to my suplier and ask for a solution or my money back! If everybody does the same ATI will fix the problem for good!!

In my opinion...for me ATI can close their doors!

ksporry

Just to let you know. NVIDIA has the same problems, which leaves you without any graphic cards... I think Microsoft should explain themselves a bit more, and as you say, together with the graphic card manufacturers, work to a solution.

mikelll

you are right...there is ONLY two graphics chip mannufacters...ist the price we pay for the globalization...

vf-

It's a wonderful OS Vista, isn't it? :sarcasm:

Th3_VVr41th

That would be nice, but according to Microshaft, (in response to my multiple requests for help) They claim is is not a fault with Vista, that it is a problem with the drivers. I've argued many times on the phone and online with them about it, considering they are suposed to CERTIFY the drivers, who the hell is doing the testing??? Point is, MS will not do anything about it since it's not "their problem", regardless of what video card you own.


The lack of competition in the market is the biggest influence in the problems we see. If there were more manufacturers, there would be more concern BY the manufacturers to resolve the problems as they come up. Unfortunately, right now being ATI and Nvidia are the only 2 major players, they can afford to run on the model of "If we can't duplicate it in our *labs*, then the problem doesn't exsist." All the while cranking out new hardware at rediculous prices, with features MOST of us will never use, or won't be implemented for at least a year or more... Whichever company, (ati/Nv) figures out wtf is going on with their hardware under vista first, and fixes the issues, will udoubtably have the potential to bury the other, as people WILL buy from the company that can actually provide solid hardware/software, and leave the glitchy, problematic products alone. Which addresses the first quote above, in that IF the companies (ati/Nv) can't find a problem in their hardware/software, then they MUST address the issue with the OS manufacturer and force them to step up, instead of just allowing them to point the finger. (Most of these companies ignore the basic fact, when you point the finger at someone else, there is ALWAYS three pointing back at you... MS is notorious for it.) which brings us to the quote below...


As with any microcrap software/OS, it does what it is supposed to, and does it pretty well... until you stress it out trying to utilize the features which made you buy it in the first place...

__________________

ksporry

1) It's not globalisation doing this, but monopolisation (which is why courts are trying to break up MS)
2) Actually, considering that I can't even start up my PC due to this problem, I can't say teh OS (Vista) is doing what it is supposed to be doing: running a PC!!!
3) As for who is responsible. They all are! MS, ATI and NVIDIA. Th eproblem is probably that MS does not release enough information for other s/w and h/w manufacturers to develop products properly. However, their mentaility is really bad. Rather than say "listen, why don't we get our heads together for a few weeks and come up with a solution", they use a very typical and childish approach, and claim it is "teh other guys problem". MS may be able tos ay it is not their problem, but in the long run it will be: When people actually stop using their Vista product, due to lack of, well, OS! Then who is teh big loser? Us consumers? Or MS?

setore

I don’t know if this solution has been mention before. Vile surfing the web I stumbled upon this blog http://www.markwilson.co.uk/blog/200...ay-drivers.htm. After installing Windows Xp display drivers on my Vista the problem whit atikmdag has gone. I can finally play more than one account of Eve-online at the same time. With the vista display driver installed I got the atikmdag just as I logged in the second account.
This is a temporarily solution for me, and I don’t mind loss of the aero in vista as long as I finally can play whit out the atikmdag.
I have been tested this for a tree days now and I haven’t got the atikmdag error. So I think I will run the xp driver until this error is resolved.

ksporry

How did you managed to do that??? I am unable to install a driver that is not vista compliant!

Spyre

The problem is as I see it that as this is the main part of the drivers any BSOD is going to point to the file as the culprit, well obviously since the display of the graphics card get used a lot in every case when the OS fails its going to get flagged since what does your PC do a lot of? ... Displaying graphics. This in some part is erroneous to a degree since the OS cant always point to what exactly went wrong and guesses or just uses the file it happens to have been using at the time. A BSOD is a BSOD but it doesn't mean they all have the same cause and same resolution.

Unfortunately what I have seen from reading this thread is that theres not one issue but multiple and people posting different things in the same thread isnt going to get any of them resolved easily.

Yes there is undoubtedly a bug in the driver for some people since the 7.3 drivers, it doesn't help when other people with similar bugs are posting issues even if they seem to be similar but in fact arent.

To use a car analogy say a car bursts into flames, yes its a serious problem but what was the cause? The end result is the same 'car in flames' but was it the fuel pump? Battery? Spark plugs ... you get the general idea why these BSOD's can be a nightmare to sort out.

Its even harder to replicate an issue, sure in theory the same hardware should produce the same results but that doesn't always happen in practice. The same hardware manufactured on different dates or by different factories can produce different results. In an ideal world that wouldn't happen but we aren't in one. In an ideal world everything would just work with everything else with no issues.

To take a different example of a bug that affects some people and not others: 2 people who know what they are talking about report an XP issue with WMP11 and WMV-HD movie playback being corrupted with X1950pro cards and WMV acceleration enabled. OK seems a reasonable trend and something that should be testable and fixable you would think right? No doubt that affects those two people they aren't going to make it up. So beta testers and ATI have a go at replicating it with the same hardware same OS and same software and have no issues at all. A standard OS with a Standard movie player playing back a standard filetype and you still run into replication issues. Doesn't make things easy or get it resolved easily either. That small example is no where near as complicated as the ones going off here obviously but just thought it may illustrate that its not plain sailing by any means.

Once you have things replicated (if ever) then you have the fun task of writing a fix for the error which then doesn't cause an issue with someone else's hardware combination which can also cause a huge nightmare in testing before the fix makes it to the public. Thats assuming that the fix is even easy to write some things can take months to sort out.

Things get more complicated by the 9th degree if there's an OS file(s) that need amending as you can imagine. Does that fix then break something else and instead of say hundreds being affected out of 100's of thousands does it cause an issue for thousands or hundreds of thousands of people instead? Makes things even more complex.

Now all the above may sound apologetic for AMD.ATI and MS etc, if you want to think that then sure go ahead no doubt your minds are already made up, but I'm just trying to show some of the 'hidden' realities behind the situation.

No doubt in time some of these issues will be fixed, the ones that can be others will just be down to other causes (faulty hardware, incompatibility etc)

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Lord Dave

Wise words, but I think your argument that this problem could be any number of problems, all causing the same visual effect is precicely why this thread should exist. Yeah, we've all put out our own theories as to what it is (me included) but in the end, its likely that we all don't have different causes. Some of us may have the same cause and by posting many different possible solutions, we have the possibility of getting a solution that works for our cause. This also helps determine what the personal problem was and maybe helps the tech guys track down the rare bug and keep it from happening again.

Spyre

By all means I'm not saying that people shouldn't post their issues as thats what us beta testers and the ATI people are here for (both of whom are helping in their free time donated out of goodwill and a desire to help people)

Just that care needs to be taken so that issues aren't confused. A hard thing to accomplish with this particular set of issues but hopefully we can get somewhere.

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Drsandman2

I, too, am having the same problem with atikmdag. However, it has been causing me problems even in Windows XP with 2 different AGP ATI cards.

My problems started after going from an ATI 800 Pro card to the ATI x1950 Pro card. At first, running a game was out of the question... I had to reduce AGP to 4x in the Bios. Even then, my computer would occasionally freeze on a BSoD or stop video output altogether. Immediately, I thought it was either a power or heat issue. I upgraded my power supply to 600w, added another fan, and upped ram up to 2GB. No change.

I went back to my trusty 800 Pro, but it has the same problem now. So I go out and buy Vista. The problem occurs far more frequently with Vista, but most of the time Vista is able to catch it and restart the driver.

After finding this thread, I ran the Microsoft update and tried running the fan at 100% with ATI Tools. No change. The ATI Tool settings reset after the driver fails.

So where do I go from here? People are saying that the Nvidia cards are having the same problem. This sucks.

Spyre

In your particular case its more of a motherboard compatibility issue from the sounds of it. Thats one of the worse things about AGP and one of the reasons I'm glad that bus is on its way out. May need to disable AGP reads and or writes or the fast writes (or a combination of all 3) option along with keeping it at AGP 4x. Another thing that can help is adjusting the AGP voltage slightly if your motherboard BIOS lets you. A Motherboard BIOS update if there is one may help but no guarantees.

The fact it happens with multiple cards on different OS's and the motherboard is the only thing you haven't changed would further indicate its a motherboard issue.

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Drsandman2

Yeah, I often think that it is the Mobo, but the fact that my 800 Pro worked just fine for over a year until I updated the drivers suggests otherwise. My BIOS is up to date and I've tried changing the read/write settings. Seeing how many people have this same exact problem, AGP and PCI alike, leads me to believe it isn't a motherboard issue.

Other people on the board have reported the same problem with the 800 Pro and x1950. I really can't imagine how the mobo would cause constant, random driver failure. I have spoken to a good 30 people who play the same MMO, and just about everyone who has installed an ATI card has problems. Seems the easiest way to deal with it is to get a GeForce card... ATI has one hell of a problem on their hands and have admitted they have no clue what is going on. I'm done.

Either way, ATI has lost another long time customer. Having to rebuild my computer around these ATI cards is totally unacceptable. If I can't resale my cards, I'll gladly be smashing them to pieces. I mean, I even stooped so low as to purchase Vista in an effort to solve the problem.

Spyre

As I have already stated if the system is unstable and going to crash then since the graphics card is fairly active then thats going to be pointed to as being the error when its not the actual cause. For that exact same reason you cant blanketly state that as other people have the same issue it must be a driver problem.

The very fact your system cant handle AGP 8X pretty much guarantees that your system motherboard has compatibility issues and needs to have the settings lowered or the hardware replaced. If you want to ignore that then go right ahead, I don't personally care what graphics card you buy in the future.

If you were interested in doing proper troubleshooting rather than complaining just for the sake of it, then the next thing to try would be your card in someone elses AGP system (who has a different motherboard to your own)

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Drsandman2

Like I already said, I was using 8x AGP ATI 800 Pro DDR3 for well over a year. With no problems. Yes, 8x setting. I know what mobo I have and what it can handle. This means that everything was running fine, no problems. I updated the drivers and then my computer went to hell. So I replaced the video card, power supply, upgraded my ram, bought extra fans, wasted money on Vista. Only to find that the driver for the new card fails over and over again.

From my other post, it is obvious I have done my best to troubleshoot correctly. It is also very obvious that I came here to seek help and not complain. Instead, I got a very condescending moderator biting my head off because I'm upset with ATI.

You are extremely condescending and I would have expected more from a moderator. I'm sure you can understand my frustration in my previous post. I think you've done a pretty good job of running people off this forum. Thanks for... nothing.

Spyre

Computer components do fail over time, nothing lasts forever. If you think its a driver issue then identify which driver version your motherboard works with AGP X8 and let me know. If its a hardware issue of some sort then there would be no driver where the AGP speed can be set reliably at 8X.

The motherboard can still be the issue regardless, for example my old ABIT KT7 motherboard (now used as a file server) works quite happily with all AGP ATI cards at AGP 2x and 4x, Try putting in a NV AGP card and it will only be stable at AGP 2x with Fast Writes off otherwise it crashes and or the mouse pointer vanishes.

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ksporry

I agree on the "proper troubleshooting" thing. But I do need to add one note: This is teh reason why I attend these forums: so that people can help me troubleshoot properly. This may well be a longer session than just 1 post. If there are few with a solution, but many with similar problems, then the string of posts can grow like this one. If everyone, or maybe even just one of us, was able to do proper troubleshooting, we would already know what the problem was.

CATALYSTCATCHER

No offense to any one but part of the difficulty is that there are many things (problems) that all end with the same result and message from Vista. There is not one problem and hence not one solution.

Everyone is looking for a single magic solution which can not exist.

Unfortunately, this makes troubleshooting extremely difficult for even a seasoned expert.

Despite the ugly nature of these problems, this thread is still not terribly long and in most cases only 1 or 2 people seem to share similar issues. (NV has a longer thread, but is in the same possition when it comes to the MS message.) This makes it very difficult for us to spot the similarity in system HW, or SW, or user approach, or graphics card so we can try to replicate the problem. (The only similarity is the message which is the subject of this thread)

I would encourage anyone who is experiencing the "stopped responding " situation to complete a feedback entry to us and provide as much detail as possible.

Or provide complete details in this thread. Please do not make a 1 liner post that says "me too". It is safe to assume that anyone posting here either has the issue or a serious interest in getting to the botton of things. It is far more useful, to give complete details of your situation and any steps that have been attempted.

Thanks

CC

ksporry

Yesterday I tried reinstalling Vista. However. at the end, after the last restart, my PC couldn't get through and crashed a few seconds after the loading progress bar came up. Black screens and subsequent restarts was all my PC could do from that moment on.
I tried a second time, with the same result.
Then I tried to install XP. I made sure I repartitioned the harddrives, and didn't do anything fancy like RAID (which is about the most fanciest thing I am capable of doing). Now XP was telling me the same story: after installation, but at the last restart, it stops at the loading progress bar and restart my pc. I tried starting up again with only 1GB RAM in the PC without any luck. My conclusion for now is that Vista has killed my graphics card. I can't do anything else but buy a new card and hope that this will solve my problem.
I am intending to buy an ATI 2600 Pro card. My PC at the moment has 420 Watts PSU. Is this enough to power my 2.14 GHz dual core PC with this ATI card, or should I upgrade to a 600 Watt PSU?

Spyre

Its not the actual wattage as such you need to worry about (although it helps to have a decent amount if you have quite a few components) but how much amperage is provided on the 12 volt rail (not peak but as standard). 30 - 36A and you will be fine for pretty much any current graphics card without issues.

As for XP not booting up before you go to the trouble of buying a new card, I discovered a similar issue with my brand new motherboard, and it turned out to be just the fact that the hard drive SATA connectors didnt go in sequence ie 1, 2, 3 (as I have 3 hard drives in that machine) I had them as 1, 2 and 4 and it totally didn't like that at all and stopped at the same point as yours. I didnt bother reading the manual and assumed that I could plug them in any old port like you would expect (and which worked quite happily on my previous motherboard by the same manufacturer) but that wasnt the case. Obviously that woudn't really apply if you havent changed the hard drives or cables etc.

You should also boot into safe mode and see what driver the OS is trying to load as that can give an indication as to where the problem lies. As the OS is a fresh install it will be using the built in MS drivers so its unlikely to be graphics card driver related.

Other things are to make sure the graphics card is firmly in the slot, the connector to the graphics card and the cards connector are clean (use an alcohol cleaning solution with the power off obviously) Make sure no pins are bent on the VGA / DVI connector.

Also before buying a new card I would test my existing one on someone elses machine. No point buying a new one if its the motherboard thats failed.

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ksporry

Well, I only have 2 SATA connectors on my MoBo for the HDDs, so I assume that one is ok. Considering I get an image at startup, I assume the connectors on the cables and ports are OK. and it does start in safe mode, but the top line is scrambled with the remains of text. It just won't start in normal mode though.
I guess it could be the MoBo, but I hope not! That'll be an expensive joke. Not to mention I don't know how I could remove the CPU from the MoBo...

CATALYSTCATCHER

Hmmmm, what spyre said.

And I will say that I had similar sounding issues in the early Vista days. 2 identical systems would not start up and run in a reliable fashion. In fact even the Vista install would fail sometimes. System had previously been running XP without a hitch. (I hated Vista, thinking it was the problem) I was running X1300 graphics and nothing fancy of any kind. These were considered the lowest reasonable system to run Vista.

Turned out to be marginal power supplys that eventually after a few frustrating weeks died completely. PSUs were replaced with reasonable Enermax 475 and the systems have been 100% reliable since. Using XP or Vista.

Even my workstation runs Vista with an X1900 and has crashed less that XP did. Which is not much considering that XP is quite reliable.

Unfortunately the only real way to be certain a PSU has enough guts is to try it for a while (without problems). Buying a good recommended brand is a good idea, with enough overhead (amps) on any of the critical voltage lines. Keep in mind that mobos and graphics cards also have onboard regulators to tailor the raw PSU voltage to their specific needs. So a mobo can also contribute to the power problems in the system. Particularly if the PSU is close to it's max.

The final ingrediant in any purchase is a reputable local dealer with a decent 10 or 14 day return policy. And hopefully close to home. Personally I don't mind spending a little more for something if the dealer meets the requirements and is located 5 minutes from home. (At least you can reach out and touch someone should the need arise :-)

Be sure to keep notes on what ever you do, so that you can continue with the "stopped responding " issue if by chance it continues once you get back into Vista.

Multiple problems in a system are real ugly to troubleshoot unless you have a lot of parts handy. And a lot of patience.

Good luck.

CC