Send Chorus Level FXBus 14

siebenhirter

Hello,
made me first attempts using simple GM-soundfonts with default-usage of FX13/FX14 for reverb-/chorus-effects. I was surprised to get no levels of chorus-send except synth-strings. After MIDI-program-change nearly each preset of the used soundfont is coming without chorus-level and therefore i think that must be a parameter of the soundfont.

How should i prepare soundfonts to get fixed chorus-level to be useable without controllers outside kxDSP, but with amount-sliders of FX14, FXMix and effect-slider in chorus or others within kxProject-DSP.

For example each sound should come with full level on (mono)FXBus 14 – if mixed or not only should depend on DSP-adjustments – the possibility of sound being useable for chorus should not be prevented by midi-program-change or soundfont-presets. On my opinion even manually settings of chorus-depth are resetted by program-change (?).

Russ

That is not the case, MIDI messages do not effect the Chorus/Reverb plugins themselves in any way (unless kX automation is being used for that specific purpose). If you want to add a constant additional amount of reverb/chorus, above the SF and CC91/93 levels, you can use the sliders in FxMix2 to add a portion of the dry signal to the effects (and of course custom DSP configs can be used as well).

Maddogg6

if a 'Reset' MIDI CC#121 is sent... but I have not seen this with patch changes - but possibly the sequencer sends this reset as well - check the sequencers preferences. (Which one do you use?)

Re kX Help file... MIDI Implementation...

There exists in Sonar - and I presume most Sequncers - a preference setting that will send this reset message automatically upon pressing 'stop' - so - this is possible.

there a 4 things that affect the levels coming out of the Reverb and Chorus send FXBuss lines..
1) Soundfont layer/element
2) sound font Patch (like a global applied to all layers
3) kX Router Sends C&D
4) MIDI CC91/93

Usually - if even adjusting FXMix doesnt give you enough 'wet' level - adding a GainHQ between the FXMix output and XRouting will like make it possible as well.

Lex Nahumury

@siebenhirter

Your observations are more or less correct.
kX drivers translate programmed FX Send settings in SoundFonts different than CL drivers.
(We had a detailed discussion on that topic here but I can't seem to find the thread)
In short; to get decent FX Send signals from SoundFonts with kX,
the 'right' way is to (re)program them at soundfont preset/instrument level using Vienna.

siebenhirter

@nahumury
.... the 'right' way is to (re)program them at soundfont layer/instrument level using Vienna.
Thanks - want to offer my tonights-experiences made by trials with effect-sends:
as kxProject use PRESETs of soundfonts, also chorus-/reverb-send (in %) in the fields of the relevant PRESETs should have values (not zero, not space). Best for seems to be using the section PRESET of a soundfont-editor and set chorus-/reverb-send to 100 (%).
No effect occurs with empty fields in PRESETs – in that case even effect-send-values in INSTRUMENT do not produce the desired effect.
Chorus-/reverb-sends being fully controllable with kxProject I suggest to set the corresponding fields of PRESETs to 100 (Globals and Layers).
Now again getting no levels means –> designer of INSTRUMENT renounced effect-sends! Therefore it is requested to set values of chorus-/reverb-sends of preset-involved instruments (in INSTRUMENT-section of soundfont-editor) – also prevent empty fields or a value of zero.
Overall – reason of missing send-levels using FXBus13/14 in most cases are missing send-levels of the soundfonts PRESET (and/or INSTRUMENT) – if not: set sliders in FXBus (kxRouter, Synth1, send_a/_b(13, 14)), slider FX1/2 (in FXMix2) slider Level in StereoChorus/ReverbLite to values higher zero (all sliders related using kxdefault.kx).
* PRESET and INSTRUMENT above used like terms of soundfont-guides *

Maddogg6

This also depends on what version of Veinna - older versions used 'instruments' and 'Patches' or maybe 'presets' - but - 'instruments' - as used to be listed in the explorer seperate from patches/presets - no longer exist in the latest version of Vienna. And seems they dropped that terminology in Vienna - seems, just to add more confusion

the *only* argument I have against this is that the available version of vienna from CL (that I can find from CL) is buggy.
edit - that and - to avoid potentially editing hundreds of patches/soundfonts /edit
So I understand the desire to avoid it as well.

Russ

@Maddogg6
You can get version 2.3 here (if you want it):
SoundFont Downloads - Take advantage with Vienna SoundFont Studio

Maddogg6

Actually - I have it from my SBLive disc - or on a backup.... but was saying for others.... and Id swear that was not there before - I looked high and low when I thought I lost my copy (and have since found)... but its good for others...

So thanks either way...

Lex Nahumury

Yeah that can be a PITA, but personaly I don't see why one would edit hundreds of patches all at once.
Just edit the ones you actualy need/use. (btw: there are SF batch processors)

Eitherway, I prefer quality over quantity so I would avoid using any Gain plugin to 'correct'
an initialy attenuated signal thereby causing signal deteriation bla bla bla....
Best to fix the problem at the source IMO.

(darn, were is that 'sf fx parameter calc' thread I was refering to???)

Max M.

Lex Nahumury

Aha, yes! thanks Max.
Reverb lite is too lite ;)
(hmm, yep, that was about reverb 'leaking' I see now, but is basicly the same..)

Russ

In the case of the OP, where he wants a 100% send level for all patches (which (by the way) would make CC91/CC93 useless), why bother editing the SF at all, and not just use the dry signal directly, like you would with external inputs, etc? i.e. That seems to be the way he wants to use these effects here.

BTW: The sends do not appear to be div4 applied, does anyone know (for sure) if this is the case?

Maddogg6

Well, this is my observation...(which to me indicates as you are right to me)

When a soundfont is tested (in veinna) at the instrument/sample level (as opposed to the patch/preset level) with no global layer involved at all anywhere.. and kX router SendC is at max. And the sound font instrument reverb send is 100 (max.) and CC91 set to max. (I hope these conditions are understandable?)

A dry out level of -11 (db ?? in Max's PeakX plugin) - fXBuss 13 is -5.3 - so FXBuss is actually sending a hotter signal than the dry in this case/conditions. if theres a Div/4 in there - its more then compensated for somewhere...

(tho, when I adjust CC91 - it 'glitches' and over drives the meter attached to fxbuss 13. Ill have to do some tests to see why/where this is occurring - I know I have adjusted and recorded KX reverbs and didnt notice this, but may have been an older version *edit* of kX /edit*- ??)

Russ

Well, according to the formula, CC91/CC93 does still add a small amount, even when SF_Reverb is at 100% (100 * 2.5 = 250 (out of a possible 255), which leaves 5 (as opposed to 50) for CC91/CC93) so that is probably the reason. I wonder why 2.5 was chosen instead of 2.55 or 2.05?

Maddogg6

no no - only while I adjust CC91 - it peaks only for a split second, then lowers to the values that coincide with what I reported above that... its definitly a bug in something that I see here . Ie loud crackles from the overdriving of >+3dbs out of FXBuss 13 (-erm in my case FXBuss 14 as I changed kX Router config) then settling back to -5 db

Max M.

Russ

Hmm, then I do not know... Does it do the same when adjusting CC91 with lower SF send levels (maybe just glitch from video/gui)?

Maddogg6

Well - the symptom is different - theres definitly something wrong.
Listen..
reverb_test_case-Audio 2 - eSnips, share anything

The SF has a 5% send ammount in this piano, there are no over lapping notes...
Its all the same velocity for all notes - in the beginning I ramp up from a CC#91 = 0 to 127 then back down...

This - I am almost certain - I have done similar with out noticing this - so it seems to be a newer bug introduced...

My only question is : does kX Synth Compatability Settings take immediately - or if a reboot is needed - I tried with out reboot and changed 'Legacy Decay Release' - with no change.

Maddogg6

Good to know, but seems when I make an assumption - I am wrong.. so....

Russ

I got an error (with Directshow) when trying to listen to the sound, so I was not able to listen, but some of the compatibility settings require kX mixer to be restarted (not a reboot) before they take effect. Did you rule out video/gui glitch as the cause (i.e. I am not sure how you are adjusting CC91, is it a slider?)?

Maddogg6

Well - my first post was noticed by adjusting CC91 with my MIDI keyboard, as well as adjusting the handy sliders in Vienna...(they give you MIDI controllers you can assign to any CC# that a SF would react to in a sequencer - as opposed to the send ammount that is set in the SF file its self)

The recording I posted (you can choose to D/L too now as I had to enable that) - was done in sonar - editing the piano roll and controller view to emulate what I was doing on the midi controller - just with my original SF with 5% reverb send level (I didnt save edits in veinna. as I was just testing to see what levels I would get with 100% send in SF)

edit: changing that Legacy Decay release setting made no difference - after restarting kX Mixer /edit

Russ

I listened to the recording but I cannot tell how much of that is just caused by the reverb itself (if you know what I mean)...

Maddogg6

I started a new thread on that..
10K2 kX Synth test request..

Its definitly CC#91 and using FXBuss 20+ for SENDS A&B (Sends C-H seem ok thus far in my testing)

Russ

Never mind, I think that the panning through off my testing. When panned all the way to one side, playing a single voice, the dry and send level is the same (with sf reverb at 100% and CC91 at 127).

Ahh, I do not have a 10k2 card (and I am using default routing), so...

Maddogg6