Religious Debate

BWX

Nobody said God sits in the clouds. Nobody said everything revolves around the earth, nobody said the world is flat- the bible says none of these things.


These is a huge invisible elephant in your kitchen though, God told me to tell you that.

Sandok

I disagree... There are many better books out there and of course, tons which are richer and more intense that you can actually study which aren't a few gizillion pages long. Reading modern neo books are the thing to do, not teach people about some religion which is forbidden by law (in almost every country)... You don't teach boring stories to anyone...


Absolutely nothing. Never have EVER been taught a religion. My folks are hindu though so if you want, I'm remotly that though I know nothing about it.

I'm indian, born in switzerland... Answer your questions?

EDIT: Also, you'd be surprised at how many people don't know anything about christianity in CH... The thing US is a very YOUNG country (as is Canada and all) and thus, religion is still a huge thing there (explaing your tiny amount of atheism) but every country is Europe is much richer and diverse and religion has been losing power steadily (example, Holland which is now over 45% atheist according to figures). The reason nobody really knows the bible or any other "sacred" book that well

BWX

LOL- all those EU countries are so much more rich than the US, yeah.. You got some interesting views of the world man.

Sandok

Not in wealth mate... In culture. We have castles, many nationalites and many more religions and languages than all of north america put together...

How you wanna beat over 2500 years of history which just 200?

EDIT: Don't take it badly... I'm just saying from personal experience... I personally find europe much richer (middle ages, lumières, etc) in the cultrual aspect than the US...

SFOSOK

Don't bash what you haven't even read mate.

If you haven't ever read the bible then you have no say in the matter.

BWX

I would say "richer" in recorded historical events, but not culture.. After all the US is the melting pot of the entire world.

The thing is, the part of the planet that the US sits on isn't any "newer" that the part of the planet europe sits on.. It is just only been developed later in history. There were people here the whole time, just not people who recorded their history, or were as advanced as the people over there at the time. See, it's all from the point of view you take. The "Indians" or Native Americans might beg to differ that their history isn't as important as European's history just because they didn't leave a bunch of ruins around or didn't advance in technology quite as fast.

Good luck reading that, I didn't proof read it, and I am very tired.

Sandok

Exactly!!! Sry for the terms I use... I know I can be vague And the rest was correct Don't worry, I'm tired too!

OmegaRED

I've never read Darwin's Origin of the Species but I understand and can debate evolution why would I need to read the Bible to do the same? If you've lived in a predominantly Christian society your whole live it's nearly impossible not to have absorbed a great deal of the bible stories and its message.

WSJ

Ok, if that is true, what exactly would you say is the central theme of the Bible?

OmegaRED

God: "Do everything I say without question."

Maddogg6

First off - this would be argued by many because the bible is open for interpretations... So... Depends on what 'faith' you are. (Lutheran, Baptist, Mormon etc..)
are we talking new or old testament? 'whos' bible - the King James *version*?

But ok -I'll make some assumptions....

now? - its theme is all about mass manipulation and control.
Its a shield for *some* alcoholic pedophiles. For others its a motivational tool and or justification for others to kill someone for their land/resources that a religious organization would exploit.
For others its a 'security' blanket for the harsh realities that is 'man' and his propensity for greed.

But I don't think it started out that way - a poorly translated and hacked version of mans early attempt to explain what we now call 'psychiatry' and 'moral conduct' - written in (parables) a way that leaves space for translation - space as big as football stadiums - and has been interpreted to mean just as many things as how many 'fans' that stadium holds. (the inherent problem of parables)

Thankfully - we now use more clearly defined terminology that doesn't leave so much space for mis-interpretation when we communicate ideas (mostly anyway) instead of parables. But even still - imagine what someone would interpret if 2000 years from now, found a copy of 'The Matrix'... That may be the 'bible' in 4007. 'All hail Neo' ....

But - you may prefer my more 'PC' version.... 'be good or god will punish the.' But the other way more logical to me.

Freulein

to believe in the essence of religion is for me to believe in love.
thats the thing we all trying to find in the end.

i have seen people with lots of pain or on the way to die, crying for mama. they cried for love, the last hope in life.
thats so difficult to explain, and a little more difficult to live.

Freulein

thats exatly not what you can read in the bible. the newer version , that part with jesus in it.

Maddogg6

yeah - lets get the right version here... ?!? The one I like best. Ok?

Esaz666

There is only one real reason to live in a religious way and that is to help your life and help you live more harmoniously with others, by living in the right way you reduce the chaos around yourself, by helping others, you help them progress and help other people improve their conditions, which is also helping your environment through the people you are involved with.

There are lots of ways to miss in religion , just dont even bother with anything negative,in my view it is wrong to think that if you just believe, that is all you need do, Love and action is far more important than a belief or belonging to the right religion/sect.

Peace and love and being unselfish is the core value at the root of all major religions be you a Taoist / Christian / Buddhist / Islamist / Hindu / Sikh / Bahai / jainist.

WSJ

Ok, that's pretty much the common misunderstanding I was getting at.
"be good or god will punish you" is the central theme of pretty much every other religion on earth... whatever their "god" may be.
True Christianity is diametrically opposed to this way of thinking.

The Bible says that no one is good, and that there is absolutely no way of "earning" our way into Heaven. It's easy to see how far we are from God's standard of good when we look into the mirror of the ten commandments.

For example, have you ever told a lie?
Have you always honored your parents?
Have you ever stolen anything, regardless of value?
Now maybe you're not quite the filthy rotten sinner I am, but I have yet to meet an genuine person who can say they have not done those things.
And not only does God care about our actions, He is also concerned with our hearts. So Jesus further explained the commandments when he said if you look at a woman to lust after her, you've committed adultery with her already in your heart. And, if you have hated someone without just cause, you are a murderer at heart.

Unfortunately the Gospel has been twisted and distorted when it is really quite clear. We sinned. God hates sin. Jesus took the wrath of God that we so richly deserved. Whoever will repent (turn from their sin) and trust in the savior will be redeemed.

OmegaRED

Worrying about these things is why devout Christians are so messed up.

Maddogg6

Wait - so Christians don't believe in judgment day now?

Maybe the mis-understanding comes from what parts of the bible get focused on or how it is interpreted?
Say some one reads the bible cover to cover - and - because the bible isn't in straight definitive language - and thus wide open for interpretation - except for the part on gods judgment - one of the few parts that is less likely to be interpreted as anything else - becomes the focal point, or theme - is it mis-understanding if thats the impression left onto the reader?

Ok - so you maybe told to let someone else do the interpretations for you...

Say someone, for the first time goes to church - and the priest talks about gods judgment - is it misunderstanding for this first impression to be the lasting impression?

For someone to say - 'misunderstanding' and 'bible' in the same sentence to me is - well - Im at a loss for words that wont be considered an insult or personal attack. When it is written largely in parable and is SO EASY to be interpreted differently - thus why there are multiple faiths based on Christianity - and they all believe *their* interpretations are more correct than the other faiths reading the same bible.

My personal interpretation of 'god's judgement' - is what we all now know as 'guilt' - it makes WAY more logical sense than a single entity keeping tabs on ~7B peoples 'sins'. (And i'll kill you if you argue against my belief/interpretation)

(j/k - added for dramatic effect)

WSJ

Oops, sorry if I wasn't clear before! I wasn't trying to say that Christians don't believe in judgment. Just the opposite! I can see why you read it that way though...my bad.
My point was that "being good" is not what will get you through judgment.

As far as the Bible being "open to interpretation" .. I sort of agree.
However, as with any literature, there are two ways to read it.
"Reader Response" -what does the text say to me
or
"Authorial Intent" -what did the author intend?

Many "christians" think it's ok to pick up the Bible and rip scripture out of context to twist it to say whatever they want. I was in a church that taught that way for a few years.
But then my husband and I found out about the importance of Hermeneutics (the art and science of interpreting scripture) and our understanding of God's Word has completely changed.

Interpreting scripture in a historical/grammatical context makes a world of difference. It's not that the Bible is to be read in a wooden literal way, but rather, plainly.

Anyways thanks, Maddog for not being all snarky like people get in these types of discussions.

Falstaff

those that turn away from God, however many good deeds they have done in their lives, shall not be welcomed into heaven.

Sandok

That is, if heaven or god actually exist

OmegaRED

I'm not kissing some dude in the clouds ass just so he'll let me into his club. I won't kill anyone, try not to cheat on my wife and a bunch of other stuff if that don't get me in then too bad

Maddogg6

So - you also are required to believe in your god as well - like Falstaff says.... I would not say thats the theme of the bible. What about those who 'find god' in jail after doing something horrific act like rape - he gets a spot in heaven - while a 'do gooder' atheist is shunned?

Ok - but there are also more than one way to write something as well.
'Its colder than a witches wart'
Some could infer witches actually exist - and their warts are colder than some one elses. But we all know its just a humans creative way to express an idea. Correct? And of course has nothing to do with 'witches' or 'warts'.

Back to my 'witches wart' example - without interpretation - and to be taken 'plainly' - infers there are witches and they have warts colder than others warts. Some may think it could be sarcasm and is to mean it is not cold - but hot.

Thats the problem with parables - they require interpretation, knowledge of 'the era' . To take it 'plainly' is what gets argued buy those who interpret it differently.
Consider also how people commonly talk with sarcasm, we know understand how sarcasm is used in context of our era... but what about 2000 years from now? - When did such notions to speak this way come about? How do we know theres no sarcasm in the bible - just as a for instance.

Now take the fact - the bible wasnt written in english. And I also know not all ideas translate from language to language.
Describe being drunk - with out parable - so I can understand it.
Describe guilt - with out parable - so I can understand it.
Describe happiness - with out parable - so I can understand it.

To me the bible was attempting to describe things like that - with their known limited vocabulary, ideas that are very difficult, even to this day, to describe in text in a way people can understand it.

Thats sounds alike a pretty arrogant god. Isn't humility s trait god likes in those he made in his image?
And take all those starving kids in africa: