merry

The land we call whatever belongs (in the moral/sentimental sense) to whatever people live there. How would you like to be held responsible for things that happened 2000 years before you were born? It is not about history, but about actual people.

There's another thing about your post... One of the greatest problems a foreigner may have with American English is the fact that words 'evolve' very fast... Nation... Israel is a nation that was formed in the 40's...

No, Israel is a state that was formed etc. An institution, not a cultural community. The Israeli nation was formed, well, God knows when. There is plenty to talk about the specificity of this nation, the unique way it's national cultural atributes are determined by their religion etc.

But how can we discuss anything when we are exposed to the possibility that even as we are speaking, a court in the US decides that the word 'nation' means something else, or just the trend changes and 'nation' starts meaning whatever to the American public?

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fornicatarachnid

I guess I was wrong about you Smoothdrive, I had you as a

person with a bit of intelligence, obviously I was wrong

The problems in Northern Ireland are not as simple as you make

out. Please read this

page and then come back when you know

what you are talking about

DallasStar

Honestly Java, I can understand that you may have certain biases towards or against certain people or faiths, but to outright deny the existence of Palestine and to claim that the Jews, who owned a scrap of land thousands of years ago and left it of their free will, have full rights to the land that the Palestinians have been living in for those thousands of years is pushing it too far.

Its pretty ironic considering you're living on "Native American property" yourself

I really can't understand how the Israelis can feel entitles to Palestine after WW2. What exactly entitled them to this land? Would you care to explain? Is it because they owned it 2000 years ago?? And how do you justify the loss of the Palestinians? Why do they deserve all of this? If you're going to say "Hamas", then let me tell you there was no "Hamas" until there was a country formed in the 40s named Israel that decided it was entitled to the world

Reading a history book and babbling it out in a forum isn't going to prove anything unless you actually take time to analyze and understand the facts

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Vampyromaniac

Property, shmoperty. If you go back far enough, we were just the "smarter" apes in Africa, and the world belonged to the animals.

I say we all kill ourselves and give it back to them.

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Smoothdrive

Repaired your link..don't see how facts and figure will change my mind tough..it just goes on about how many people live in northern Ireland and how many is invested and bla bla bla..<edit>OK found the History button..it is complicated indeed, my view remains the same however</edit>

Only problem i see is the rufusal of the British to give up the last bit of the Island..if they would have left the island 30 years ago there would not be a conflict today and the UK could save all the money they're spending there and use that for improving the lives of the other inhabitants of the UK..win/win situation.

PS You maybe right about me being wrong..but you're confusing intelligence with knowledge of facts in that case

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fornicatarachnid

Sorry about the link, I fixed it

The point I was making is that the whole situation over there is

not quite as simple as you seemed to think. I don't really

understand all the politics behind it all either All I

know is that we can't just leave because there are a lot of

residents there who want us to stay.

ps. If you haven't got knowledge of the facts, what gives you the

right to comment ?

JavaFox

I am extremely dissapointed in your reply. You do yourself a great disservice, sir, when you presume to know my thoughts. I am greatly offended that you would even suggest that I have biases against peoples, cultures, or faiths.

Now, if you are going to critisize me and my views, then I should hope that you would some research. First, there has never been a sovereign nation known as Palestine. You cannot disagree with that because it is factual. The very term "Palestine" was a name given to Israeli lands by the Romans and pertains to the Philistines. I am not denying the Palestinian right to live in peace, but please don't misrepresent fact: there has never been a nation known as Palestine.

Second, the Jews did not leave Israel of their own accord. The temple was destroyed and the Jews --for the most part-- were forced into exile by the Romans.

So your argument is basically this: "the Jews don't own the land because they were forced off of it in the First Century. The Palestinians, then, deserve the land because they were occupying it in the 40s." That doesn't make sense to me. Does that mean, then, that the Israeli occupation of Palestine will be okay in the year 4000? I don't understand. I think both peoples should be able to share those lands.

The fact that the formation of Hamas was a response to Israeli occupation does not negate the fact that Hamas is an unlawful, immoral, and merciless terrorist organization.

Your problem is that you misunderstand me. I said that Palestine has never existed, and this is true. There has never been a Palestinian state. "Palestine" went from being a Jewish state to a Babylonian-controlled territory. Then it became a Jewish state again, only to be renamed and eventually destroyed by the Romans. Then it became a British territory called Palestine, only to be returned to the Jews in the 1940s. This is all fact. But it does not mean that I think the Jews have been faultless, nor do I think that they should control all the Holy Lands. The Palestinians were indeed there and should retain some ownership. But to say that it belongs to them simply and solely because they used to live there totally ignores the fact that the Jews also used to live there.

ByteMe

Get this fokk heads. Yesterday I had the pleasure to speak with a family from Iran. They live hear now but visit Iran twice a year.

I talked with them for awhile, I was kinda surprized with what they said. They said that the Iranian goverenment only really represented 10% of the people (we allready knew this). They then said that most all the Iranians WANTED the USA to take out Saddam and take over Iraq. AFTER we do that they wanted the USA to do the same thing to IRAN. Holy shit!!! A majority of Iranians want the USA to come in and take over.

Tells you what these puesdo fokk head wanna be inteldicks know.

We need to stop wasting time and start a policy of killing all radical muslim governments.

ToshiroOC

America is NOT Israel's puppet - America is the puppet of the liberal Jews throughout the country! Now, I'm not being totally facetious - the extremely rich liberal Jews control a lot in America, including a majority of the media we watch and listen to... and all I have to say is, "Damn straight! Bout time people with sense took control". However, to be totally serious..so what if America has an interest in helping Israel? Israel is one of the very very few countries in the Middle East with an extremely friendly relationship with America - why wouldn't we want to encourage and foster that friendly relationship? If Israel asks for help, we give it to them not because we would expect it in return, but because people here want to help Israel for various reasons without expectation of reciprocation. Those people might want to help because they are Jewish, or because they want to see America keep at least one good, strong ally in the Middle East...

ToshiroOC

I'm half Jewish (Lithuanian/Ukranian, 4th generation, non-practicing), so I might be somewhat biased... but this is the flame board! Who cares?

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ToshiroOC

I have a much better idea - why don't you stop being racist? We need to start a policy of killing all radical governments? Maybe. All radical MUSLIM governments? I think not. I would think that Fidel Castro is just as bad as some of these Middle Eastern (not Muslim) dictatorships... Anyway, I happen to personally know one of the sons of the Bakhtiari family (sp? its Tiari now, they changed it, but its a familiar name to anyone versed in the local history), the family that practically ruled Iran before the revolution - his grandfather was the prime minister, his dad was a general or something of the army, his uncle controlled some other big thing, and the best friend of his uncle was supreme commander of the airforce, etc. so on and so forth. If you have any questions (serious ones, and do your research before hand, I won't bother my friend with stoopid questions), post em here and PM me with em and I'll ask him when I get back to school after Christmas...

ToshiroOC

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ByteMe

The problem with taking out Castro (which is a good thing to do) is the USA made an agreement with russia that we wouldn't.

digitalwanderer

Does that still apply? Which russia did we make that agreement with, ain't there like a zillion little ones now or something?

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ToshiroOC

I'm not saying that we would - I'm saying that we could and should, and that the focus of the USA should not be on exclusively Muslim regimes, but any regime that poses a threat to it's own populace and it's global neighbors.

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Highwood

Why would taking out Castro be a good thing? Do you Americans want to replace him with another murdering mafia whore like Batista? Are death squads and private police forces all right as long as they are sanctioned by the U.S. government? The people of Cuba are far better off under Castro than they were under Batista. The bay off pigs, Cuban missile crisis and alliance with the USSR all came about because of Americas support of Batista, Castro was not the bad guy here it was the U.S. government.

ToshiroOC

Taking out Castro is a good thing because it would let America build a democratic government (which is always better for people, since it gives them freedom instead of dictatorship), and it would open the way for the removal of all of the trade sanctions on Cuba right now. With those trade sanctions gone, the overall economy of Cuba would become better. Net result? More freedom, better economy, increase in standard of living. Removal of Castro is a good thing. And please don't use "you Americans". I speak for me, not America, and I disagree with the US strongly on some things. I don't want to be stereotyped by our idiot-in-chief's stupidity, just as I'm sure he wouldn't want to be stereotyped with my opinions

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