Personal Rights and Terrorism

br00ksintexas

This morning, on the "Today Show", they were interviewing passengers of New York's subway system. They were talking to said passengers about the newly implemented "random searches" that NYPD and the NY Transit Authority would be performing. According to the NY police chief, these searches would be done randomly, either every 5th, 10th, or 15th person, in order to avoid "racial profiling". When they went to the passengers to ask about their feelings on these newly implemented policies, for the most part, most were amicably compliant. There was one British-American who said "I'll give up some of my personal rights to keep from being blown up." They also showed an African-American who, atleast to me, naively said "This is New York City. Let us go as we please."

Here's the question I pose to you all. If you're in a country that is/has been affected by terrorism, would you so willingly give up some of your basic, every day, simple personal rights, in order to increase your personal and national security?
And, if not, then why not?

Also, do you think, that in these times, racial profiling is unconstitutional, or an outdated idea?

Please try and be as specific as possible regarding your dissenting views.

AttroPheed

Random searches are a little ridiculous given how many people use the NY subway system daily. And while racial profiling could work to help what may already be an exercise in futility, americans (regardless of descent) are a very sensitive and litigious people so I dont think it would fly.

Ðamage™

This is a good very debate Br00k.

I think it is ours and our countries governments civic and very important duty to have certain precautions and guidelines in place, as humans and being in such a "not so perfect" world, these things are essential for our protection.

Especially when dealing with terrorism and terrorists that sometimes change the rules for their own evil and sadistic views or religion.. when we are dealing with extremists taking innocent lives and destroying whatever peace of mind that as a whole.. is our right too human harmony, that checks and random searching be essential in our day to day lives when using transportation of any sort. It is better to save the many lives of a city or country then to disgruntle 1 or more person(s).. that has deemed it unnecessary or a bother.

Like I heard while watching the news yesterday on the TTC.. "If you don't like the procedures put in place.. then find another ride".

Peace

br00ksintexas

"If you don't like the procedures put in place.. then find another ride"

I think I'd agree with that statement, too, Damage. To be put out a little by random searches vs. potentially being blown to bits, well, atleast to me, wouldn't be an issue. It definitely seems to be for the "greater good" in light of recent events. As for racial profiling, I almost don't see how it's totally possible, in regards to the Muslim community. In my life, I've met and seen Muslims of all colors and shades. Sadly, it's nothing that simple. I was reading in another posting on a different forum, and someone suggested that if local (to whomever) Muslim communities would refuse to give safe haven to radical Muslims then eventually the radicals would have no where left to go. As it is, most of these radical terrorists seem to have no problem extinguishing human life, be it white, tan, red, or black. As we all have seen from Iraq, they have no problem killing their own people, and I for one seriously doubt they run to each Iraqi they intend on killing, and have them fill out a "Are You a Devout Muslim" questionairre. Knowing this, I just can't seem to understand, or bring myself to any kind of understanding, how these people are thinking, that they would willingly harbor someone who would gladly kill them in the name of their own God.
I think I might be willing to die for my God, but I don't think he/she would want me to kill in their name or image.

LHC

I think it is a good idea, however, problems can arise. A suicide bomber might hang back a little bit, notice a pattern, and go onto the subway when he or she won't be checked. Plus, what would happen if an NYPD officer or NY Transite Authority is racist? Unless there are multiple officials keeping track of the searches, a racist person can pick out just about all the Muslims go through..

Necrosis

I think I will and have gave up some of my personal freedoms already. However, if it bangs some kids live, or some one some else love lives I'm up for it. Real Muslims have nothing to worry about since the condone these actions. Honestly, if who these people hate are really that bad, and they are so numerous. Why don't they band together to show the world whay they are fighting for?

SFOSOK

I had to do a summary on quiet a few different articles on our rights as citizens, and the rights of terrorists.


Basically, a person taking the point of keeping our rights and not having security makes a better point most of the time. But most of their arguments are based off of, we don't know its goin to happen so it may not.

I believe we can never be to safe. But there will always be some form of abuse by the ppl monitering the population for terrorists, though if we are not strict enough, terrorists will continue to roam free.


So the answer is yes, I believe that some of our rights sohuld be taken away to protect the population. if it takes 30 mins of security to board a train, then wake up earlier.









I think most ppl do not like the fact they have to taek over an hr to board a plane, well thats good and all to think that way, but I bet you would change your mind if security checks were like 15 min all together and your plane gets hijacked.



More security = good if controlled and not abused.

SFOSOK

and Necrosis, if they would have banned together any more than they are now, it would have happened by now. You have to realize how long this war has been goin on, only recently has it spilled over into US soil. Once again we have been to late to act, I would not go as far to blame Clinton, because there is no way he could have known, but we need to revoke some rights in order to make sure another 911 won't happen (even though it will again eventually).


I just hate the ppl who attack polititians, the majority elected them there, so live with it or leave, You can't blame Bush or Blaire for terrorists actions, they would happen anyway, whether we take action or not, so this is a time to band together, not to bicker, how many more 911's will it take for America to c this?

Ðamage™

Ya.. Necrosis, "you have to realize man".. what's wrong with you!

Peace

Dark Lord

i can agree to a certain extent on some of this stuff, but what i can see is, what if it does start now? how far will it go? what rights will i have left when its all said and done?

just to pull of a very far off analogy, but could we end up like the folks in Half-Life 2, where all of our rights have been revoked in order to protect our selfs from each other?

Ðamage™

I agree user, and a prime example of that is the wonderful "Patriot Act" which they've just prolonged for another 10 years. "God help America"

Peace

SFOSOK

well, its either lack of freedoms and some deaths prevented, even if it is just one, or your freedom and a life or lives lost.

br00ksintexas

If America were "Formally Invaded" (War actually declared by an opposing recognized nation and they entered our borders) we would lose almost all of our rights as it is. Of course, that's a worst case scenario. I'm wondering if, let's say, that the Supreme Court put mandatory timetables on these particular losses of rights. If they did, say until the end of the "War on Terror", or 5 years max, then would it be easier to take temporarily losing their freedoms?
It's strange to think of something ending with the War on Terror. It doesn't seem like it's a winable war, in terms of us obliterating them/beating them into submission. There's just far too many extremists in this world to ever stop it completely.

AttroPheed

I'm more worried about getting killed by salmonella or the proverbial falling coconut or in a car crash than I am worried about getting blown to bits by a 'terrorist'. TV would have you believe that every third train outta the station has a suicide bomber just itching to try out his new pipe bomb recipe when in reality the danger of your being hit by lightning or even shoved in front of the train by a random homeless person is far greater. I say we submit to random health inspections at restaurants and hotels so we can stop all the food-borne illness that manage to kill or afflict tens of thousands of people every year. Pick your battles people. I'm not saying we shouldn't be vigilant and maybe if terrorists managed to kill as many people as regular everyday citizens of your own race, religion and creed do then I could see giving up our rights one nibble at a time. You should be more afraid of kenny the fry cook not washing his hands and giving you hep-c than mohammed and his holy war.

SFOSOK

Well thats because you only think of yourself and how it will affect you, you have absolutely no regard for your comon man. Terrorism attacks humanity as a whole, everyone who hate terrorism should stand up together and stomp those fuckers out until there are none left.


And moron from France, go live in Israel for a couple days. Just because it doesn't affect your country right now, doesn't meaen you should just sit on your ass and wait for them to kill someone you know in order for you to take action.



Nobody wants to make the effort because they believe it won't happen to them. Well, thats what Jews said until they were rounded up into death camps, and any other group that the Nazi's putaway thought it wouldn't happen to them, no one wanted to do anything, until it was too late.



Also, how dare you campare terrorist acts to everday accidents. Terrorism can be prevented, and to think that we should live in a world of terror is foolish.

The_Neon_Cowboy

Wouldn't work the point is the searches are at random any one they want, especally
if you ligering around and "checking things out" your going to draw suspecion...

How many of them are muslums? hmm? like 95%?!!! So It only mskes since the muluims
would be more apt to be searched especally if wearing winter wear in summer. Indicating
they just came from overseas and a much warmer climate...

If anything seem out of place they should search, especally if someone is nervious
I'd be a pain to do airport type secuirty.... The differance they don't need a warrent
or just cause to search you or you car when you on the premises. Same as it is at
postal offices now...

SFOSOK

yeah, racial profiling actually helps save lives. Everyone hates it, but shit it works, if I were a muslim I would want them to search me, that way they know I'm ok.


In times like these, who gives a shit about racial profiling, loss off freedoms, and privacy? no one should, because security is always higher on the priority list than luxury.


The world has been too comfy asleep in their bed, but here is the fucking alarm clock, so its time to wake up and get shit done.

HMS-Dreadnought

Befour 911, americans got on/use planes like we get on busses.

Perhaps, allthough not pratical with bus's , perhaps trains and subways need more 'airport' like security. (at least to a point.)

maybe there should be 'walk thru' scanners, like at airports, and all bags lugage needs to go thru a convayer-belt xray. it could be quite speedy compared to airports.

infact I see know reason why all boarding passengers should not be given a quick groping by the security just to check for any strange hard things ( I mean belt bombs.)


Actualy, I just had an idea.

You know them sony night vision addapters for there video camaras that they recalled because when used during the day they could see-thru what you were wareing, well you could have something like that , in an area with very bright light. No need for dangeros X-Rays on the people or anything. And again, it wouldn't slow people down too much, not like at an airport.

AttroPheed

Drunk driving, shootings, and murders are not accidents and all are just as easily preventable as train bombs if you're willing to give up some of your basic rights!. Calling drunk driving an accident is to make some drunk fuck getting loaded and killing someone easier to swallow. And of all the people that were killed today by some sort of firearm in america (we'll let Israel police Israel) how many were an accident? Why should I be willing to give up my rights over the much smaller percentage of deaths involved in terrorist activity when I'm more likely to be killed by a violent american criminal that should have been locked up after the first 2 times he assaulted someone with a handgun? Imagine if we let a terrorist go back home and try again if he failed to kill someone. Thousands of people in america are killed everyday by americans.
You seem to think I want to give these nutjob terrorists a free pass but I dont. I do want people to think realistically before they submit to giving up anymore of their rights. Who says 'the war on terror' will ever be over? Who says you'll ever get your rights back? The point of my post was to get people (rednecks included) to try and look at things realistically. You're far more likely to be killed on purpose by an american from america. Not just the badguys your television is telling you about 24 hours a day. Image if all drunk drivers were islamic. What a furor that would cause eh? I guess it's fine if someone of your own race or religion kills you. now that's foolish.

The_Neon_Cowboy

Subways you'd have to secure the tunnels, service entries, etc.. very doable...

Buses? never would work!

regular trains you'd have to secure every single mile of track impossable!
maybe if we had some "bullet" trains or something.... even then you could
still blow the tracks or a bridge with the train on it...

radTube

It seems the terrorists have already succeeded in their quest to terrify people. That's what terrorism is all about, right? Scaring people into doing things they wouldn't otherwise do. I have no doubt that they'll see (and have already seen) the loss of your rights as progress in their cause, and all it does is add to their enthusiasm and encourage them to keep doing exactly what they've been doing thus far. They probably see all this attention they get as a positive thing too. I've got to admit that I haven't got any answers to this problem either though, so I'll just shut up just like I've pretty well succeeded in doing thus far.

PS: Don't kill me SFOSOK-who-likes-to-call-people-morons, but I think AttroPheed has a point here. Murder is murder, whoever it is who holds the weapon, and terrorists happen to be a minor cause of death by violence in the grand scheme of things.

br00ksintexas

I remember from my military days in Europe and Asia, how when flying back and fourth between the states, or anywhere for that matter, alll International Flights were always searched heavily. When passing through customs, you were asked questions, randomly searched, and sometimes selected to do more in depth searches. Depending on which country you were in, they'd have weapons ranging from simple handguns, to sub-machineguns and shotguns. Once I'd get back stateside, if I had a connecting flight to my destination, then it was as if there was no security at all. The most they wanted to see was a ticket, nothing more. In comparison to Airport Security now, it was practically non-existant. The American airline industry was DEFINITELY asleep at the wheel, so to speak.

Going through airport security now, while slow sometimes, and definitely boring, is much better. It's not perfect. Most of the screeners I've seen aren't even native born Americans. They aren't paid much, in respect to the job they hold. And, most simply consider it a boring job, instead of a much needed necessity implemented to save lives.

While I'll agree that you're more likely to be killed in America by a disgruntled American, I would say that my biggest worry is more of some whackjob terrorist getting hold of a Soviet "suitcase nuke", or some random chemical weapon. You know, the one's they made in the 80's, admitted to making, then admitted to not knowing the where-abouts of many of them. THOSE suitcase nukes. Obviously, SOMEONE has them, and I'm sure for the right price they'd part with a few, for the "right person with the right cause." Living in Arlington, Texas (for those of you who don't know, Arlington is right in between Dallas and Fort Worth. It's the heart of the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex area.) I'm surrounded by quite a few select strategic targets. In Ft. Worth, we're building the F-22 Joint Strike Fighter. There is also the Navy/Marine Joint Reserve Base which houses many personell/aircraft. In Dallas, there are many different military contractors, McDonnell Douglas, Vought/LTV, T.I., etc. Then, there's always DFW Inernational Airport: America's largest airport, which is one of two airports where troops returning from the middle east fly into before connecting to final destinations. I've never been robbed, held at gunpoint, been hit by a drunk driver, or had any crime transgressed against me directly. Personally, I feel like that's a non-issue in my life. Sure, crime happens to anyone randomly, I've just never had it randomly happen to me.

Along that note, I'd like to point out one difference between the "common American (insert your own nationality here) criminal" and a "terrorist". Complete lack of respect for anyone's life, including their own. Drunk drivers aren't in their right mind, due to the outside influence of the alcohol. Most killers kill out of necessity, meaning they do it to get out of the jam they're in. Sure, some do kill just to kill, but not all killers, not even most, could be branded as "sociopaths". Terrorists go in, knowing that more than likely they'll be killed in the transgression of their act. According to everything I've heard/read, to them it's an honor. They gladly die for their cause, and take out as many as they can doing it. Don't know of too many American thugs who'd admit to that one, ya know?