London Bombed!

**dj_stick** · Jul 8, 2005, 01:16 AM

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Fedayeen (from the Arabic fida'i, "one who is ready to sacrifice his life for the cause")

sounds pretty accurate

FuNsTeR · Jul 8, 2005, 01:49 AM

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Originally Posted by Zardon

The problem with the united kingdom is this. The government is weak, they pander to minority extremists in all walks of life, they are "politically correct" even when it sacrifies the safety of their citizens. That is what is wrong with this country.

that is so correct

the minority extremists make the most noise so Blair and co .... bow down to them ... thoose tree hugging pinkos (politically correct types) set the agenda and the majority are bullied into going along with it or fear being labelled a racist/bigot or worse for disagreeing with them .... one of the worse thing they have done here was banning the belt at school ... nowadays kids run about causing mayhem and damage to school property and assualt fellow pupils and teachers without any fear of being disciplined ... tthey have no respect whatso ever ... if you even mention bringing the belt back the PC correct crew brandish you a thug and a brute for even mentioning it .... they're quite happy to watch their children to disrupt entire classes of pupils trying to get on with studying and doing their school work

raid517 · Jul 8, 2005, 11:15 AM

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Originally Posted by BWX

You'll never learn. Blaming this act of terrorism on the US is the most ridiculous thing I have heard on this subject yet. Be pissed off, you should be, as I am- but be pissed off at the right people.

As I said, this whole thing has gotten a lot worse in direct proportion to America's continued meddling in the Middle East.

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Answer: Kill the terrorists.

We will, but I wonder how long we can go on killing? If the lessons learned in Israel are anything to go by, for every one you kill 6 more emerge.

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Notice the answers to these questions have nothing to do with the US.
I feel the same way about these attack as I do any other terrorist attack, including 911, (which in the past I have heard you and countless other members of DH say we deserved and/ or brought upon ourselves BTW).. How would you feel if a bunch of people here started telling you that you deserved it?

I have never said anything like this in my entire life. I have said that the 9/11 attacks were a sickening and disgusting crime and that those who perpertrated it do not dererve to live on the same earth as the rest of us. Moreover I demand that you remove this implication that I would ever say such a horrible thing.

I have said in the past that given US foreign policy over the last 60 years it is unsurprising that the US might be open to attack - but I have never implied that those who died in the WTO - or in any other terrorist attack 'deserved to die.'

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These attacks are acts of brainwashed scum who want you and me and everyone else who doesn't believe what they believe-- to die. Blaming the US and Israel is pointless. Blame the people who did it. It is their fault, and only their fault. They are sick cowards that don't deserve to be alive..

But I do blame the US in many ways (though perhaps not excusively). It was the US who first imported these Arabs into Afganistan (which I doubt could even really be considered an 'Arab country') in the 1980's. It was the US who trained them, who provided the weapons and the training camps (which they later referred to as terrorist training camps) and it was the US who promoted the spread of fundametalist religion in Afganistan, because at the time it was believed that it could be used as a form of 'brain washing' and that it made the Arabs and the Afgans better fighters. After all, what better fighter can there be than someone who has no fear of death at all? It was also America who then abandoned them after the Soviets pulled out in 1989 - and who then broke every single promise they had ever made to them. So yes, it was the US who created much of the resentment that exists today.

Also consider why we were attacked yesterday? Were we attacked because everone in the world hates us? No! We were attacked simply because we are seen to be a friend of America. That is a pretty high price for friedship, don't you think?

GJ

raid517 · Jul 8, 2005, 11:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Sturmbahn

Wow, you didn't read a friggin' thing from either of those links did you. Researching a topic would sure give your view a better leg to stand on. The Crusaders, notably the Templars, borrowed many aspects of the assassins. Hasan didn't rule over all Muslims, though he would have liked to, just a fanatical sect (much as the terrorists are a fanatical sect of all Muslims). Hasan's Islam and orthodox Islam are very different. Islam is a religion, Hasan's version converted Islam into a tool for his tyrannical rise to power. Here's a quote for you - "Below the grand master stood the grand priors, each in charge of a particular district. After these came the ordinary propagandists. The lowest degree of the order comprised the "fida'is", who stood ready to execute whatever orders the grand master issued. A graphic, though late and secondhand, description of the method by which the master of Alamut is said to have hypnotized his "self-sacrificing ones" with the use of hashish has come down to us from Marco Polo, who passed in that neighborhood in 1271 or 1272." Does "fida'is" sound similar to fedayeen - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fedayeen?

So no, this is not hatred against all Muslims. Like Christianity, Islam has its divisions - everything from goodhearted versions to fanatically crazy ones.

Well good, we are on the same page then. But unfortunately when you come here you do have to qualify your statements in this way, otherwise people will simply take it that the examples you give are intended to imply that the same is true of everyone within the specific social group - and will use it as fuel to feed their already inhereant racism. You have to remember that some of the folks here are - well how can I put it - lets just say they may not be the sharpest tool in the toolbox. So in general, the more you can explain things the better.

GJ

Falstaff · Jul 8, 2005, 11:26 AM

The thing that strikes me most is the courage of the Brits in London, the whole world can see the spirit of the english....I dont think these militants or terrorists realize the repercussions of these attacks. I applaud the English and Londeners in general, the interviews and testimony from American victims further reinforced my opinion that it takes a great deal more than bombs and threats to keep people from their lives.....

**Vikingod** · Jul 8, 2005, 11:37 AM

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Originally Posted by Falstaff

The thing that strikes me most is the courage of the Brits in London, the whole world can see the spirit of the english....I dont think these militants or terrorists realize the repercussions of these attacks. I applaud the English and Londeners in general, the interviews and testimony from American victims further reinforced my opinion that it takes a great deal more than bombs and threats to keep people from their lives.....

Right on.

I also have to say, it is absolutely rediculous to blame this, even in a passing way, on the US, come on, get off the band wagon and look at the real issue and who is really to blame. Nuff said, done with the politics.

Falstaff · Jul 8, 2005, 11:46 AM

I agree

~~trodas~~ · Jul 8, 2005, 11:59 AM

raid517 - what do they want? Okay, if we skip the idea that this was, like in the Spain, done by peoples paid by the very own goverment - and concentrate on the "claimed" guild of immaginate Al-Kaida, then I could not help but notice, that England is already engaged in war.

Together with USA and other of the "coalition of unwilling", they invaded and ocupating independent country, and killing many civilians (they even dare to refuse cound the civil causalities).

So, since there is beyond the shadow of doubt proven, that England is already in war - who in the name of Lord says, that civilinas have to die only in Iraq???

Besides, there is no proof - BS about Al-Kaida I can print on my printer myself as well - we should ask - as you, raid517did - about reason. Qui bono - who benefited, asked judges in old Rome empire.
Now, who benefited?
Is not that obvious?
60% of even brainwashed Americans (by their "independent" media) are agains the war. Izrael is forced to pul-off from part of the ocupied territories, Iraq (even the puppy goverment!) made public that it ready to reason and discuss with the fraction of insurgents, that did not killing Iraqis and futhermore openly critic USA & "coalition forces" about killing Iraqi civilians. Spiritual leaders in Afghanistan recently passed ban on kidnaping foreiginers. In Iran the presidentional elections win the most extremist candidate for the "west" and on the G8 meeting was not the fake terrorism the main event, but rather the doom of mankind thanks to the climate changes (and the 1/4 of the world emmision populer - USA) and the poor economic situation ofthe third world.

So, why not give the people a little bit taste of terrorism, so they will fall to the line back again and support their leaders strongly again, so they should continue the war on phantom enemy, while controling own citizens more and more, that to me, guy who live 18years in communism, looking todays "freedoms" of the west as far worser dictature that we have there during the communism, witch we overthrow to get free.

Who did not see this and begin to argue and insult me, rather that at least try think free - then please note. Im not communists, I hate commies and I fought agains them. My grandpa fought against nazis. And if you still think Im lunatic, then before you put into words, please bother and read THIS:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/
...and then comment on my thoughts.
Thanks.

raid517 · Jul 8, 2005, 12:16 PM

Yes, similar arguments have been made here in the past - though I personally have never implied - nor do I believe that these bombs are being planted by our governments.

These bombs are real - as are the terrorists. It is who is resposible for creating these terrorists - and who is responsible for breeding the resentment they feel that often irks me. Even so there is no excuse whatsoever for one human being to do this to so many others.

GJ

br00ksintexas · Jul 8, 2005, 01:00 PM

Terrorism : The systematic use of violence to achieve political ends is not new – among many other examples, it featured during The Troubles in Ireland before its independence in 1922. In recent decades, it has become a common tactic among a wide variety of groups, from independence movements to the secret services of various countries. Random bombings, shootings and/or 'disappearances' – and the fear and panic they provoke – put pressure on governments, proving that they are unable to protect their populations, or can be used by dictatorships to frighten their people into submission and obedience.

Terrorism happened to many countries long before America was even a country. Islamic Terrorism has been around for centuries, and it's aim has been like that of a young child with a B.B. gun. It's all over the place, and rarely has a reason for shooting. Ask yourself this. Is there EVER a true GOOD EXCUSE for the use of terrorism??? IF your answer is no, then you need to quit blaming the US or ANYONE else because it's happened in your backyard. It's wasted time and emotion, which should be spent on capturing and/or killing them.

After watching thousands of hours of news in my lifetime, as well as documentaries, this is what I've learned about Muslim Fanaticism: They strike out at A: anyone who doesn't have their idealistic beliefs. B: They HATE the fact that GLOBALLY (yes, that includes the US and Great Britain) when terrorism is mentioned, almost EVERYONE associates terrorism with Muslims. (Guess they should've stayed out of the news, huh?) C: They'll attack anyone, any size force, because they have no fear of dying due to idealistic brainwashing. As we've all heard through the news, documentaries, etc., they're rewarded in Heaven for "dying for the cause".

As for the rest of the world hating America, yeah, Right. That's why our customs people are continually catching and returning refugee's, illegal immigrants, etc. to their own homelands. As I see it, and I've lived around the globe, all be it with the U.S. Army, the GLOBE is fascinated with our country, our way of living, and everything else. Sure, just like these fanatical terrorists, there will always be some small minority of dissension in most places towards us. It still doesn't stop us from this indisputable fact: we ARE the most powerful nation on the planet. Period!=o)

Now, as with any nation, we also have politicians who can mess up our Global reputation. Bush isn't suave. He's not glamorous. He's not even good looking. I've never seen proof of him lying, although I've read MANY websites, forums, etc. that make the claim. They even offer supposed proof. What it comes down to is this, I'm not paranoid, so I don't believe them. Nothing Bush has done has affected me, personally. At least not in a negative manner. I believe in the War on Terror. I believe in a free Iraq. I don't see the coalition as an "occupying force", but rather as "peacekeeping forces". Regardless of our actions, there will always be someone somewhere who disagrees. That statement goes for us personally, as individuals, as well as us nationally. That's just how some people are.

I watched the news for hours yesterday. Partially in disgust, partially in disbelief. I likened it to 9/11 although on a somewhat smaller scale. My heart went out to all people affected, physically or emotionally. This is something that no one deserves. Nothing, no rhyme or reasoning could make it right or excusable. So, with that said, quit trying to justify it, even for your own sanity. No one had a right to do this. Who cares what their reasoning was. Trying to figure out what they're thinking isn't going to stop it eventually. We, as humans, have to bring them to justice or exterminate them, and, either find some kind of peace with who remains or , well, it's kind of obvious isn't it? (Isn't that what the war on terror is, anyway?)

Have a good day,
Kev

raid517 · Jul 8, 2005, 01:46 PM

I don't think you will find anyone here trying to justify these things. Who exactly are you referring to here? This is my country that was attacked. It made me nearly physically sick with rage to watch those images.

As for America being 'popular' I think in days gone by it was certainly better liked. But no matter how much you may like him personally there is no doubt that George Bush hasn't won any international popularity contests for you.

Besides I'm not sure how good a way of seeing the world joining the US military is. I lived in a town in Scotland for two years that had a huge American naval base only about 3 miles away. For the whole time I was there I don't think I saw a single American. (Well that's not true, I think I did spot one or two elderly American tourists - but certainly not any military personel). I never quite figured out why that was, except that it seemed that the Americans felt that they were so well liked, that they just didn't want to leave their base. If the same is true of other American bases around the world, then how exactly does a life in the military educate you about other people's views or about how other cultures work? Besides which the American military only ever seem to go anywhere to blow things up - so maybe it's not quite the ideal cultural education you might envisage it to be.

GJ

br00ksintexas · Jul 8, 2005, 02:03 PM

LOL.

Wait..let me do that agian.

LOL

Being in the military doesn't automatically mean you go and blow things up. There are literally hundreds of different jobs in the military that don't involve any kind of destruction. Atleast half the U.S. Armed Forces are support personell. Not combat infantry men, although that is their first, primary job, in times of combat. Myself, I was a heavy equipment mechanic, but I also knew my entire carreer that if I was needed to fight, then I'd be handed a weapon, pointed in the general direction, and do what I was ordered.

I went out in the public in every place I was stationed or visited. I mingled with the locals and made friends from all walks of their locality. I also tried my best to be informed, in their own news medium, along with AFN( Which I'll admit is a joke.). From what I've heard from many in other countries, first hand, was that they would ideally like to live in America. That's my perception though, and doesn't have to be anyone elses.

As for why you saw no American servicemen, I can't answer. I know that when one of my units, which was stationed in Giessen Germany, would go on contact missions to northern Germany, we would get in fights nightly with the Brits. Why? Bravado, I would speculate. It led to us not being able to go anywhere near them, though. I know this, it was hella funny fighting at about a 1 to 3 ratio. (1 American to 3 British) There was never a clear winner, and we'd usually all end up drinking together later. Good times gone by.

Falstaff · Jul 8, 2005, 02:18 PM

Well Scotland yard will be making arrests very soon, I assure you, but with a decentralized terrorist network, we may never find the masterminds..

lenchmob · Jul 8, 2005, 02:47 PM

raid157 wrote:

"And BTW I do blame the US and Israel to an extent for exporting this kind of terrorism to the rest of the world. We never had trouble like this before with Islamic extremists until the US decided to go on it's little (and totally pointless) adventure in Iraq). "

Yeah were the cause of it all, and Gitmo's a gulag right? Get real. Our little pointless adventure in Iraq oh please here we go again. Look back at English history then come back and say the same thing again. One only has to go to any museum in London to see the spoils of Colonialism exported by your government.

Islamic extremists hate the West hence Europe, the US and all those nations in between...

Ubergrendle · Jul 8, 2005, 02:49 PM

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Originally Posted by trodas

Who did not see this and begin to argue and insult me, rather that at least try think free - then please note. Im not communists, I hate commies and I fought agains them. My grandpa fought against nazis. And if you still think Im lunatic, then before you put into words, please bother and read THIS:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/
...and then comment on my thoughts.
Thanks.

Fails the Occam's Razor test in so many ways its not funny. I can point to thousands of other events that are straight forward terrorist attacks; in the abscence of ANY evidence to the contrary the only people yelling 'conspiracy' in this case are suffering from dellusion.

Its highly more likely that anarchist wackos are looking for boogeymen where they don't exist, since it helps support THEIR fantasy...the rest of the world carries on in a reasonable way.

BWX · Jul 8, 2005, 03:00 PM

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Originally Posted by raid517

I don't think you will find anyone here trying to justify these things.

Justify it? Placing blame on someone other than the terrorist who committed it is trying to justify it.
You will see people here on DH blaming the UK for the terrorist attacks just inflicted on them. Hell you just blamed the USA for it.. AGAIN

Go search the PDF.. hundreds and hundreds of times the same has been said about the US and 911- people have said many times that we deserve it and that it was justified. You wait, same will happen with these attacks..

About your other post-

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I feel the same way about these attack as I do any other terrorist attack, including 911, (which in the past I have heard you and countless other members of DH say we deserved and/ or brought upon ourselves BTW).. How would you feel if a bunch of people here started telling you that you deserved it?

I have never said anything like this in my entire life. I have said that the 9/11 attacks were a sickening and disgusting crime and that those who perpertrated it do not dererve to live on the same earth as the rest of us. Moreover I demand that you remove this implication that I would ever say such a horrible thing.

you have said we brought it (911) upon ourselves.. maybe now you will understand more clearly why that is very far from the truth. The UK doesn't deserve it, and didn't do anything to justify it in any way shape or form.. and neither does any other free society.

raid517 · Jul 8, 2005, 03:10 PM

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Originally Posted by br00ksintexas

LOL.

Wait..let me do that agian.

LOL

Being in the military doesn't automatically mean you go and blow things up. There are literally hundreds of different jobs in the military that don't involve any kind of destruction. Atleast half the U.S. Armed Forces are support personell. Not combat infantry men, although that is their first, primary job, in times of combat. Myself, I was a heavy equipment mechanic, but I also knew my entire carreer that if I was needed to fight, then I'd be handed a weapon, pointed in the general direction, and do what I was ordered.

I went out in the public in every place I was stationed or visited. I mingled with the locals and made friends from all walks of their locality. I also tried my best to be informed, in their own news medium, along with AFN( Which I'll admit is a joke.). From what I've heard from many in other countries, first hand, was that they would ideally like to live in America. That's my perception though, and doesn't have to be anyone elses.

As for why you saw no American servicemen, I can't answer. I know that when one of my units, which was stationed in Giessen Germany, would go on contact missions to northern Germany, we would get in fights nightly with the Brits. Why? Bravado, I would speculate. It led to us not being able to go anywhere near them, though. I know this, it was hella funny fighting at about a 1 to 3 ratio. (1 American to 3 British) There was never a clear winner, and we'd usually all end up drinking together later. Good times gone by.

Well the going places and blowing things up was intended to be slightly humourous, so I'm glad it made you laugh. But it was taken from the Team America: World Police movie - which does rather potray a somewhat extreme example of how many people in the world view America.

As for fighting with the Brits lol - well hey, that sort of stuff has gone on for years - though I'd say your estimate of three Brits to one Yank was a little off centre. More like 4 Yanks to one Brit - 'with no clear winner' as you put it.

Lol, well what can I say, you started it...

GJ

raid517 · Jul 8, 2005, 03:22 PM

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Originally Posted by BWX

Justify it? Placing blame on someone other than the terrorist who committed it is trying to justify it.
You will see people here on DH blaming the UK for the terrorist attacks just inflicted on them. Hell you just blamed the USA for it.. AGAIN

Go search the PDF.. hundreds and hundreds of times the same has been said about the US and 911- people have said many times that we deserve it and that it was justified. You wait, same will happen with these attacks..

About your other post-

you have said we brought it (911) upon ourselves.. maybe now you will understand more clearly why that is very far from the truth. The UK doesn't deserve it, and didn't do anything to justify it in any way shape or form.. and neither does any other free society.

Well all I can say is that you are a complete lying SOB. I have never said people who are killed in these kinds of attacks 'deserve it.' What the hell kind of a human being do you think I am that I would revel in the slaughter of countless hundreds of innocent lives?

I don't think anyone here (other than you) no matter how much they like or dislike my point of view would ever seriously say that they think I believe anything like that.

There is no way to justify this kind of sickening mass murder - but that is not the same as saying that certain people or ceratin countries may share more of the blame for creating the conditions that allowed the world to go crazy enough so that things like this can happen. It is certainly by no means 'justifying it.'

If I said I thought that the people who did this (and who were involved in the September the 11th attacks) should have their skin slowly peeled piece by piece from their bodies, how exactly is that justifying it? Yet I can still say that and still believe that a lot of the reasons things are the way they are are due in large part to past American foreign polocy screw ups. How exactly are these the same thing?

GJ

***Zardon*** · Jul 8, 2005, 03:31 PM

ok before this gets totally out of hand I want everyone to step back a little and calm down.

raid517 · Jul 8, 2005, 03:40 PM

Sorry ZD, I can fight on the low ground or on the high ground, but up with it I will not put when someone accuses me of reveling in the murder of my own innocent countrymen (or in the deaths of others who die in similar terrorist attacks).

GJ

kelticknight · Jul 8, 2005, 03:53 PM

raid17,what beat the likes of ira and such was they first ,people in north voted for peace and people in republic of ireland as a whole didn't surpport them.so get your facts straight
and another thing ,there way wwas old and would never work in mordern world