Who is the best leader ?

Nacht

please stop with the trolling. Every post you make contains one of these unfounded remarks - this forum is for debate.

I would like to know who on this list is a better choice, and why. Our country didnt "turn to shit", nor does the entire world hate us because of Bush.

I voted for Bush because he took the initiative when our nation was in a time of need, plain and simple.

EleazarCAST

What the heck [zi0n]aXe are you being facetious are you just really that ignorant. We are actually doing better now that Bush is here. I always hear you site the casualties of the Iraq War as a failure, but again you ignorance gets the better of you. The Iraq War historically has a very low amount of casualties and also the operation has been carried out quicker and more effieciently than previous wars. Of course somehow to you this is a defeat. Also something for you to think about, since you always say the economy is so bad, but of course you never have anything to back up what you say. Well I do, and heres my proof. Maybe you should try this some time.

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POST ORIGINALLY FROM PHYSICSFORUMS.COM
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1944&sequence=0 (This fiscal year and future fiscal years)
http://www.cbo.gov/showdoc.cfm?index=1821&sequence=0 (historical budget data)


Perhaps you are confused about the terms on-budget and off-budget. The on-budget calculations of budget surpluses and deficits don't count social security. If you don't count the current surpluses of the off budget items, then the budget deficits are even worse, 536 billion dollars on-budget deficit for this fiscal year and a projected 10 years of on-budget deficits totaling to over 4.4 trillion dollars (instead of the 2 trillion dollars I said earlier). If you don't want to count SS then yes I will admit that there was a deficit of 33 billion for fy 01, but Bush was president for Jan-Oct. of that fiscal year. There was indeed an on-budget surplus of 86.6 billion dollars for fiscal year 00. Look at the history of the on-budget deficits, they were reduced dramatically while Clinton was in office, but when Bush came in to office they went to record levels. You republicans wouldn't recognize facts if they hit you over the head.

You mistake my wanting you to simply make sure you are starting with a founded argument as disagreeing with your general message (as a fiscal conservative, I am not entirely pleased with our government spending). My point was everyone continues to label the 'surplus' larger than it was, that is all.

Back on topic of debating your actual point, do you really think that Clinton made the 90's tech boom what it was, and that Bush made the subsequent bubble burst what it was?

How do you account for:
The internet coming to market
Enron, Worldcom, etc.
90's P&L's being ranked 50 times their actual value
9/11

Don't take any of my questions as predetermined stances please. I ask a lot of things simply to ask them.
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Lets start talking facts rather than opinions for once. If you talked facts you would have to admit Bush is a great president. Of course your too busy being a pawn of the liberal media to do that. You should run for office and have your campaign slogan be ignorance is bliss. You would make a great Democratic candidate(this does not apply to all Democrats obviosly. There are Democrats that actually have their facts straight, zion is obviously not one of them.)

TJ-

When the almighty U.S.A is losing to a bunch of turbin wearing, mal nutritioned fanatics dawning ak47's and home made explosives, then you need to think. All your technology cant save you. It is not a conventional war, so it cant be compared to previous ones. But that doesnt detract from the fact that the U.S is by no means winning, and imo cant win. Off to Iran next, mabye you will stand a better chance? Who knows. Recruting numbers for the army is at a all time low i hear... Does that tell you something...

TJ-

I live in Australia, we dont have "liberal media" I base my opinons on your countries based on others, which seem imo to be doing alot better. I dont have facts, because I have yet to find a source that is truthful, which i dont think exists.

digerati

Please don't make this personal. Your objective is to prove him wrong, that doesn't mean you have to insult him.

EleazarCAST

I am in no way insulting him. I am just stating a fact. He is ignorant. I do not mean this in any personal way either. I am actually giving him the benefit of the doubt by not calling him a fool. At least this way he is not responsible for his misrepresentation of the truth. Seriously, look at his two post preceding yours. He first says the U.S. is losing the war. Even though we are making record results. He also says it isn't a conventional war, again he still has no idea what he is talking about. He probably thinks Vietnam was a war instead of a conflict. Please prove to me he isn't ignorant and I will have no problem refraining from stating what is now fact. He also says army recruitment is at an all time low. He however forgets about all the negative press coverage the war has gotten. And to what he may think, Operation Iraqi Freedom is already won. We are staying there until the Iraqi's can defend themselves. If I wanted to make this personal I would say something like, the [zion]aXe is too busy running away with his tail between his legs like the rest of Australia to even know what war is about. That would be making things personal. I have not done this, so it is not personal.

Lastly axe, from what you said about where you get your news, you are getting it from a outside third party. Which is actually one of the worst ways to get information. Not to mention the post you used to start a thread about Bush's approval rating proves you have liberal media in Australia if not that at least the influence of our liberal media in your broadcasting. CBS and New York Times both have liberal bias. Only news media that is even remotely close to not being liberally biased is Fox. In fact, [zion]aXe. Please list a non-liberal newspaper besides The Australian. You will be hard pressed to find one for obvious reasons. Please enlighten me, for you have failed to do this so far.

Lastly, your wrote:
"I dont have facts, because I have yet to find a source that is truthful, which i dont think exists."
You lie or well you are mistaken yet again. If you have yet to find a source that is truthful, then where did you get your current views from. They must all be a lie then. From your own admittance. At least you are admitting you have no proof for anything you are saying. I don't know how one can believe so blindly. Faith is a great thingl, but it has to be based on fact and truth. Both of which your beliefs are void of. From now on, until you actually decide cite sources or prove to me you are credible, I will not take your blather seriously. But regard it as one does the words of a fool. This is because of what you have admitted, not because of any bias or personal dislike of you. I only do what is logical and in progression to what is rational in my actions regarding your recent postings.

TJ-

Are you going to publish that book of yours? I dont know where you get your sources, but i can guarantee they are not credible.

In the end people only believe what they want to hear. So lets end this little debate. Your not going to insult/change my mind, and vise versa... So all of this is pointless, mabye we can have a beer in hell.

Sandok

which is why people hate you even more... then please, if that's your attitude, don't be surprised when you get attacked! You guys just ask for it...

I don't really care about the US at all but somehow, most fanatic arabs and such do and when you guys take your "mighter than thou" attitude, well...

digerati

I doubt he means that we are losing the war in terms of casualties.

Personally I think we're losing the war similar to the way we did in Vietnam, we have the media portraying a lot of aspects of it in a negative way which kills our worldwide credibility. And this is true, I know the Brazilians gave my mom lots of crap when she flew there recently just because she's American.

And you still can't call him ignorant, you may say that he needs to learn a thing or two which is true of everyone, but don't call him ignorant. This is a debate forum so namecalling should be left at the door. Debates are on a whole other level than arguing, it's what separates us from the stupid populace, the ability to debate and have our own opinions, and having the flexibility to see and even agree with the opinions of others.

EleazarCAST

You are correct, I lost my patience with zionaxe. The way in which he presents his ideas, I must admit, are intolerable. Even though I may or may have not been stating a fact, there are many more ways I could have presented this idea without name calling, even if I do support this with evidence.

Zionaxe, I apologize, I was being childish. Please forgive me. No, I don't believe you are going to hell, and neither do I believe myself to be going there. Hell is only reserved for those that refuse to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Saviour. Even if you haven't done this now, it doesn't mean it isn't a possibility later in your life. Therefore the outlook is not so bad. It doesn't matter how terrible a person you might be, what you have done, or how terrible a person I am for sinking so low to insult you like I did, or anything I have done in the past. God's grace covers what we do. He looks at what is in your heart, and if it is sincere, that is what matters. Besides hell wont have beer, and if it does, it wouldn't be the type either of us would want to partake in.

To everyone else please forgive me as well, I do my best not to lose my patience in this manner again. To those of you that are Christians accept my apologies, for I have poorly represented Christians.

Lastly again zionaxe. It is a well known fact the media in the U.S. is liberal as well as many other medias across the world. Even more so in Europe. It used to be the other way around, and things had a consertive bias. But that was back around the time of WW2. Here is a link to a media research team that specifically covers the American liberal bias:
http://www.mediaresearch.org/
http://www.gargaro.com/bias.html (this is a blog covering media bias, yeah I know, blogs aren't always the most credible, but he backs up what he says)
http://www.fairpress.org/mbn/blog.htm (another site covering media bias)
http://www.fair.org/index.php (yet another site covering media bias)

If you look closely, the media bias they describe on each of these sites is liberal. Which goes without saying here are some high profile people that agree with my view:
Ann Coulter, Bernard Goldberg, Sean Hannity, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Quinn and Rose and Michael Savage.

I am sure after all this you won't believe there is a liberal bias, but you can't deny there may at least be a possibility there is one. Or that maybe a liberal bias does exist, just not at the extent to which I say it is. Either way, you must at least accept there could possibly be a liberal bias in the media.

One last thing, I think it is a bit odd how you ask for sources from other people but yet have none of your own. If what you said in your previous post is true, then why would any sources be of value to you at all. You did say:
"I dont have facts, because I have yet to find a source that is truthful, which i dont think exists."
If this is the case, then why are you even asking for sources. Wouldn't that just mean mine are untruthful. You seem to be contradicting yourself here.

OldBuzzard

Don't stress EleazarCAST, Zion IS 'ignorant'...intentionally so. The unfortunate thing is that he has no desire or intention in curing that condition. That's part of being a liberal. FACTS mean nothing, and FEELINGS are everything. He 'feels' that he's right, and nothing you or I can say will change that. Zion's condition is USUALLY a 'disease of youth', but as we know from looking at some of our 'esteemed Democratic Senators and Congressmen' that is not always the case, and the affliction sometimes lasts a lifetime.

In either case, Zion is of no importance in the great scheme of things, as he's not a citizen of the USA, and just likes to sit on the outside 'sniping', while telling himself just how important he is. If he has such a great desire to 'right' things he SHOULD come to the States, become a citizen, and work to change things to his way of thinking. However, you will see in his next post, that he will express that isn't an option as he doesn't even wish to be associated with us. (Of course, now that I've 'blown his cover', he will wait until some other time to say that)

He's just ONE of many 'Anti-USA Trolls' that frequent this and the FWZ forums. They are good for entertainment. At least Zion isn't STUPID. It's just unfortunate that he doesn't use his intellect to look at BOTH sides and see the good and bad of each side.

digerati

I would find this insulting good sir as I judge a lot of things by feelings and therefore would not find that trait a bad thing. It's the not being able to believe that your feelings may be wrong which I can agree with, but you're still treading on a very fine line.

I'm 19 btw, been on the forums since I hwas 16 or 17

OldBuzzard

There is nothing wrong in making SOME decisions based on 'feelings'. We all do that, and wouldn't be human if we didn't.

But, when a person allows 'feelings' to take precidence in the face of overwhelming facts, then it's a problem.

EleazarCAST

Even though zionaxe, may or may not be ignorant, I don't think it right for a Christian to say. I do believe him to not be well informed on many of the things he posts. Hence why he can never give any sources or supporting evidence for what he says or "feels is correct". This is one of the things I understand the least about his persona. If you are going to have such radical views at least have a shred of evidence. If you can't find any as he says "truthful" sources, then maybe you don't believe the truth. Somewhere along the line you have to check your emotional beliefs with rationality, otherwise you are destined to misinformation.

This is not a personal attack against you zionaxe, I am just being honest. This is how you come off to myself and it seems some others in this forum. I don't think you realize it. Yeah I might not have views you are in favor of, but at least everytime I have supporting evidence and sources. You haven't yet.

TJ-

Where are you sources oh wise one? I dont need sources, I base all my comments on common sense, something you have been stripped of when your government raped you of your freedom.

EleazarCAST

Last I checked this is not a Flame Warzone, so don't make it one. What do you mean by where are my sources. Sources for what, I have already given all of mine. Will you just stop for one second, and read my posts before posting a reply to them. If you base all you comments on common sense, that still doesn't mean you will end up with the right result. You can of common sense tenfold of mine and you still would end up wrong. Here is the definition of common sense:

Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment.
-------taken from dictionary.com------------

So you might have common sense but, absolutely no knowledge of what you are speaking about. Therefore you would still in fact be wrong. Anyways, I would rather have a wealth of knowledge than all of your common sense, since you seem to have so much of it. Maybe now would be an appropriate time to bow and worship you, since you think yourself so much greater than everyone else here, to not have to substantiate any of your claims. Do not speak to me in a condenscending manner again, this is rude, and does not progress this thread. Also, do not personally attack me or my government, I do not do this to yours and if I did I apologized for this. Which, I know you won't do, because you could care less about your ill-mannered treament of myself and others on this forum.

Freulein

the leader of germany is gerhard schröder. mr. köhler have only represantative tasks.

nitrousoxide52

I voted for Blair, because he is a hell of a better leader than anyone else on the list, also because he handles him self and his country in a very well mannered way.

nitrousoxide52

Let it go, he's a Republican, he'll sort it out himself..... by starting a war with a 3rd world country.

yoda133113

Not saying republicans actually do that, but is the democratic response any better, let a major cause of terrorism get away numerous times during the Clinton administration.

BTW Clinton has gone on the record supporting the war in iraq (source CNN). Whether you think CNN is liberal or not (I personally find them rather liberal), the world as a whole uses them as a major trustworthy news source.

Ferdinand_L

I'm curious Yoda, who the major cause of terrorism that Clinton let get away and when and how did that happen?

Ferd-

Necrosis

Original attacks on the world trade centers for one thing.

Necrosis