Michael Moore! Supporter of the Poor and Common! ...Gives bad tips..

digerati

Tipper's Name: Michael Moore (yes THAT Michael Moore)

Where it happened: Los Angeles

Total bill / Tip amount / [color=red]Percentage:[/color] $452.25 / $17.74 / [color=red]3%[/color]

What happened:
OK i ran my ass off for this guy and his friends. Funny I didnt know this guy had friends, maybe they were kissups. 2.5 hours they spent shoveling food down their fat faces. Numerous refills. By the way MM is a pompous ass judging from his treatment of the staff.

Source: http://www.bitterwaitress.com/std/in...tail=1&id=1560

trodas

OMG!
He is pretty overweighted already, but 2,5 hours of eating?!



...and yep, indeed, he become a "sort of celebrity", so there come the downside and treatment of staff...

pr0digal jenius

damn, $17 is more of a $70-80 meal kinda tip.

Tips should go as follows, for those who don't know:
EXCELLENT service: 20-25%
Average - good service: 15%
Poor - below average service: 5-10%
ABYSMAL service: 'asshole tip'*

*Asshole tip: get a refill on your drink and a desert menu. drop a quarter in the drink(while full), place desert menu flat and fimrly across the top and turn upside down, using menu to prevent spillage, place on table and quickly remove the desert menu, leaving a cup full of drink, that when moved, will dump cold drink and their 25 cent tip all over the place

raid517

I'm not a huge fan of Moore, he can sometimes distort reality almost as much as those on the far right can - but then again, just because he is famous he shouldn't be expected to give all his money away to any random SOB he bumps into for 5 minutes - waitress or not. If it was me and I was the manager of that restaurant I would have sacked her for insulting one of my guests.

I think tipping is balls anyway. You already paid for what you ordered - why should you be expected to pay more? Would you do it is a store? I mean would you go to a store and buy a CD for $14 (or whatever it costs) and then insist on giving the shop assistant more than the actual sale price. "$14? No, no, you must have more!"

It should be down to store owners and employers to pay decent wages, rather than force their employees into what is after all simply another form of blatant begging.

GJ

The_Neon_Cowboy

remember he sat in the "seat of honor" @ the democratic national convention
and they have been referd to as "mores party"

Hic doumentries twisted propaganda films, it fitting he seen in places like germany
speaking against the US

raid517

Hang on, I'm still a long, long, long (did I say long?) way away from agreeing with any of your views on him (or on anything) Neon. There was just one scene in his last movie I thought was pretty unrealistic - but he still made a lot of good points. The right never really managed to argue with any of these points, they just called him a 'bad guy' and then tried to attack his character. He may not have had such a big impact if the right could have found a way to counter any of the major points he made.

GJ

The_Neon_Cowboy

there ar massive lists of inconsistancies and out right lies. He take things out of context and out of time. He takes actual facts and turns and twists it into "entertaining fiction" nothing anywhere near what could ever be called a "real documentry". Like useing footage something tha happenped years ago of before the fact and saying it's of "after the fact".

it be like i take one of you veiws from when you was a kid that has since chaged and then twist and say that it's your view now when it not. or simlaur like something that happened year ago but to say it just happened

there are even video to the effect like "ferengn hype 9/11" a entire move that picks on mores film.... the guy is trash but it apprears his controversy draws attention and money...

there are tones of sites, blogs, new articals with lists of some of the inconsitancies i'm suprized you havn't seen it...

raid517

The only thing I have ever hear most republicans say is "Michael Moore, he sucks!" (Which is more or less what you just said). Not much of a response really.

Anyway like I said I don't care that much for him. He made a lot of good points - but it was all the hype afterwards that put me off. I wasn't sure if he really cared that much - or if he was just selling his new and latest movie.

GJ

Sturmbahn

What a lousy tipper! 3%? Sounds like he decided that her effort wasn't worth doing a little simple math in his head (15% = 10% + 5%, or division by 10 and by 2, grade school stuff) so he simply gave a flimsy 'oversized' tip. Couldn't he have rounded up to $20 if he wasn't up to calculating anything (his tip was actually 3.922%). Arrogant bastard should learn to cook and clean for his own fat self and friends. I bet 2.5 hours of a restaurant's team of professionals working on $452.25 worth of food is worth a lot more than $20 of gratitude.

raid517

Bollocks the real bastards are the begging SOB's who stand there coughing expecting to be paid twice for something you already paid for.

digerati

Michael Moore is supposed to support the underprivelaged workers who live off tips. This wasn't going to show that he's cheap, it's going to show he really doesn't care about anyone but himself.

Sturmbahn

???

Just where do you take your family out to eat? Begging? Do you expect everyone to cater to your whims for free? Coughing? Maybe he's just trying to return the favor by passing you the flu.

I see tipping as being grateful for not having to purchase the food, prepare the food and hand wash the dishes (unfortunately my fiance is even lazier than I am). Of course, if the service sucks then so does the tip. My beef is getting a receipt with a line for tips when I eat at a self-serve buffet. I hate guilt trips.

raid517

Like I said I don't believe that standing up for the poor and under privlidged necessarily carries any requirement to give every last penny you earn away to people who often don't do very much to deserve it.

In the town where I live (like most big towns these days) there is a small but significant problem with people who indulge in the practice of what is known as 'agressive begging.' That is they will often pester and attempt to intimidate you into giving them money - without stepping over the physical line into threats or violence. I don't see tipping as very much differnt from this, where people feel it is justified to put you on a guilt trip by implying that they are not paid enough and that they need to beg for extra just to make ends meet. The real solution if you give a damn about the poor and under privlidged is to force employers to pay a decent and acceptable wage so that people didn't feel the need to ask for or expect extra from anyone else.

I don't agree with tipping - even though even I sometimes feel forced into it - but I don't think this says anything about my integrity, the way I feel about fairness in society - or any of the other views I hold. Instead of tipping I would rather donate my money to a charity that enables people to get training and to get an education, so that they don't have to rely on tipping - or agressive begging just to survive. This seems far more sensible and constructive, rather than just giving my money away to people for essentially nothing - and with no hope of my money doing very much good.

GJ

radTube

This is just a matter of differences in local customs. I know that restaurants around here include the tip in the price of the meal, so they can pay better salaries and the waiters don't have to depend on tips. I agree with raid in that this is the way to go.

digerati

When I was working at Costco Wholesale I was using the money to pay for my education. Any tips I got I refused first because it was against policy but I couldn't force people to not give me tips. Their money helped me pay for probably my biggest expense getting to and from work, gas. If not for the tips, some of the money I spent for school would have been spent in my car's tank.

raid517

Yes well that isn't always the case though is it? I'm glad you found a way to pay your way through college - but I think it is sad that this was the only way you were able to find to do it. If Costco and other employers in general could be made to pay decent wages, then maybe there wouldn't have been any need for you to take money from elsewhere. And there very much is a way to stop people giving you tips. You started out saying no - you could have simply continued to say no. Not that like I said I entirely blame you, it is employers that I blame - they are the ones responsible for creating this culture where this kind of behaviour is seen as almost acceptable.

I worked in a restaurant too when I was going through college (admittedly it was a slightly more upper class establishment than most) and we were told that anyone caught taking tips would be subject to instant dismissal. Indeed this happend at least twice that I can remember and the individual responsible on each occasion was very uncerimoniously and very quickly shown the door. It was a tough lesson undoubtedly, but I think a valid one.

Best regards,

GJ

digerati

I actually would keep saying no, but the Costco vests had a conveniently placed pocket on the outside to which people would force tips into and you can't refuse that. Since I was on the cart crew I would help load the many heavy things into peoples cars and since it was around x-mas time people felt obligated to give tips.

And the pay was good, $10 an hour. But I also had to travel a good 20-30 mins on the freeway speeding to get there so gas consumption was a pain. And also when I say pay for school, I mean pay for classes as well as putting money into a savings account for when my bills really start coming in (as soon as I transfer to Cal State LA)

raid517

Well as I said, everyone should look to their own concience on these matters. You could have easily sewn the pocket up so that you could have the opportunity to issue a polite refusal. If the pay is good then there is really no reason not to. But that is up to you.

In any case this is all very much besides the point. I think the real point was some cheap ass shot was being made at Michael Moore over his lack of willingness to give every last dime he earns away to the poor and unwashed of this world. It is the same typical nonsense the right always resorts to when they can't find any legitamate way to argue with any of the points someone might be making, in that they simply resort to character assasination. I have yet to see any point by point rebuttle of anything Moore said in his movie about the Bush administration - which seems to me only to suggest that the right simply does not have any way to answer any of the charges he made. What I have seen a lot of is this petty insulting and attacking of his personality and so on. I may be wrong but saying things like 'You suck!', or 'You stink!' or 'You big fat Pig!' etc do not quite qualify as a considerd and reasoned response to the kinds of allegations that Moore and others have made. Unfortunately this appears to be the only kind of response that many on the right are capable of - which is why I guess trivial crap like this does seem to come up so often.

My own view - although I must stoop a little myself to even argue on these terms - is that it is perfectly possible to be the most lousy tipper on the face of the Earth, yet still be able to make a valid political point - and also still be able to care genuinely for the plight of ordinary people in some often very intollerable situations. I do not see that there is any connection between the two of these at all. Indeed I find it ironinc that those who accept - and in some cases expect gratutious payments of this nature feel that they have any right to comment on this matter at all. It is almost as though they view tipping to be some kind of right - which clearly it is not.

Having said this I would not object if restaurants and other establishments raised their prices and abolished tipping and shared the profits from their increasd prices among their staff. It is just the dishonesty of tipping I do not like. You agree a price for goods and services - yet even though that price is agreed you are still often expected to pay more.

Like I said, you wouldn't expect this if you went to buy a CD, or your groceries, or a TV or whatever - so why should it be accepable elewhere?

GJ

digerati

Personally I tip based on performance, not on the amount of tax or the amount of food. I drink a LOT of a water, usually 4 refills minimum so I hafta tip when a waitress or waiter runs their ass off to refill my glass. I also tip my sushi guy because he goes lots of favors for me like giving me extra stuff for free and storing stuff for me in his station fridge. But this isn't the point.

Michael Moore is supposed to be the beacon of the liberal poor against the rich right. I'm sorry but that is living a lie, I have no problem with him being a bad tipper. If he says he doesn't care about people working minimum wage jobs and he doesn't agree with tipping at all then I will understand that. But he does claim to care, and he does tip, but he obviously doesn't do either of the 2 very well.

raid517

So he should just give all his damn money away? Man what kind of perverse logic is that? Just because you may have some left wing views doesn't mean that you might by any means be looking for a nomination to sainthood. And I think a 'beacon of the liberal poor against the rich' is a rather grandios claim for Mr Moore. Personally I just think Michael Moore is a film maker with his own particular message and a unique view of the way the world works.

Face it the biggest problem with him is that you can't find any real arguments to refute the large majority of the things he said - because if you could you wouldn't give a damn about things like whether he was a lousy tipper, or an inconsiderate lover, or that he was somewhat overweight, or whether sometimes he might occasionally break wind at the table or whatever. Considering some of the things he said, these other things don't seem to stack up too well against them, do they?

I mean, is this really and genuinely all you have?

GJ

digerati

I've found plenty of things to refute his points. I wasn't bringing them into this at all. This isn't about his points, it's about what he claims to stand for, it's about his character. It's about him saying Miramax/Disney didn't distribute his film because they were trying to censor him and protect their government tax breaks when it was just a marketing_ploy.

He brings up some very valid points. But I don't think he goes about proving them the right way with deception, tricky_editing, and manipulation.

raid517

Well aren't all movies distributed with a certain degree of hype? Why should this movie have been so different? And although any accusation of direct censorship may have been overstated - there is certainly no evidence to refute the possibility that there may have been some very real indirect censorship. It seems somwhat blatantly obvious (at least to me) to say that there are many on the right who wish that this movie had never existed. (Not least you, since you are here after all complaining about it). Like you they find many of the charges that the movie made extremely difficult and uncomforable to deal with. So if it could have been made to go away then I have no doubt that a lot of people would have seen this as a real plus. Who knows too what the personal political views of the CEO of Disney were? As far as I recall he was very much 'in' with the Bush adminstration and had made several significant contributions to the Bush election campaign - so even if he decided without any external prompting purely based on his own political persuasions to can the movie - this still qualifies as a form of censorship. Maybe he just felt like trying to do Bush a favour? (But in the end I guess they had to try to sell it on - as I doubt even Disney can sniff at the prospect of loosing out on a $6 million advance).

In any case my own view of the movie is that it wasn't that good. He did make some good points - but a lot of it wasn't particularly new. (Indeed a lot of the points he made have even been made on this forum over the last few years). I think what was new for a lot of people on the right was to have all of this dirt laid out end to end for everyone to see. They might have been able to refute one or two of the things he said - but clearly they would (and have) found it impossible to refute them all.

I agree this is about character - or more specifically about some quite weak attempts at character assasination - specifically because you appear to imagine that if you can somehow make him look bad - all of the other things he said will somehow magically vanish too.

Personally I couldn't care less if someone was fat, lazy, indolent, rude or whatever - if you have something to say and can still make a good point, or can highlight an instance of gross misconduct by those in high office and can back up the claims that you make with real evidence, then I don't see where one's own personal character bares any relevance to this.

Moore is just a jounalist - why don't you go around assasinating the character of other jounalists, like those who work for Washington Post, or the New York Times or whatever (although my guess is that certain ellements on the right already do). It just seems like an extremely undemocratic way to go about things. You can't argue any of the points that are being made, so you try to trash the guy making them - and thereby seek to silence the free press and freedom of expression by focusing not on any of the acusations, but on whether the person making them is a particularly nice guy or not.

I mean really, what the hell has that got to do with anything?

GJ

digerati