I'm Tired Of This, Just Remember Everyone, We All Have Bloody Hands

digerati

I've been in this forum for a long time now and I have come to the conclusion that there are 2 types of main political debaters followed by one smaller group.

Lefties - Against Bush and if they are of non-US descent, Anti-American
Righties - Bush and America can do no wrong.
Middlemen - The smallest group, who see left and right but walk in between.

I find it so amazing that middlemen are the smallest category. I have seen the extremes from the left, Bluelight comes to mind, and the extreme right, BWX and Neon and I think it's time to come out and say this.

Every nation has blood on its hands, every country has corruption, and every nation does things for money, not for kindness.

WWII, fought for the Jews? Hardly. How long was Hitler rounding them up before the war started? When did the war start? When Hitler started invading other countries and messing with international trade. I'm sorry, but this war like WWI was fought for profit. But of course what typical history book tells of the struggle of the diamond mines of Africa between the major European countries? In US history books, where do they tell us that we entered the war after tying in 8 1/2 billion dollars into Englands economy and it looked grim for them and if they lost our investment will be lost?

Now since I live in America I can point out more wrong doings in it than I can in other foreign nations. But even for Britain during WWI, your government and military treated the common men as expendable. In July of 1916, British General Douglas Haig ordered eleven divisions of English shoulders to climb out of their trenches and attack the German lines head on. Of the 110,000 that attatcked, 20,000 were mowed down by machine gun fire, and 40,000 were wounded. Five months after the slaughter, he was promoted to field marshal. In the last year of the war, English newspapers printed the following.

WHAT CAN I DO?
How the Civilian May Help in this Crisis.
Be cheerful...
Write encouragingly to friends at the front...
Don't repeat foolish gossip...
Don't listen to idle rumors...
Don't think you know better than Haig

And don't think that your country has changed a lot since then, it hasn't. Neither has America, or any Western power.

Why did America get into WWI? German U-Boats sunk the innocent Lusitania right? I mean it was only carrying ammunition for the British and how many lives were lost? 124 lives were lost. Those lives were enough for the US to declare war against Germany. A decade earlier, the US Interstate Commision reported that in New York, during the course of one year, 20,000 people were killed on the job in factories. Where was government then? Clubbing strikers who wanted safe working conditions and equal pay. So America was willing to go to war over the loss of 124, but when 20,000 are killed leaving their families pennyless, America does nothing, same with now and big business owners robbing pensions. And btw, remember how horrified we all were when we heard people were jumping out of the World Trade Center instead of burning to death? The same thing happened in the Triangle Shirt Company. The company locked the people inside so they could monitor bathroom and lunch breaks, and locked the windows shut. The working coniditions were stuffy, full of cloth, and they gave them kerosene lamps for light. When a fire broke out the women were left to die, and many jumped to their death instead of burning.

Where was the war against poverty? The war against big business? I'm sorry, the politicians were lining their pockets, the same way they are now, in every country around the world.

I'm sorry, but no country in this forum has any clean hands, not my country, not yours, stop criticisizing countries based on a whole. Let's debate about situations, events, decisions, not about countries. If you think you can speak about your country with clean hands I'd like to see you try.

-Restless and tired of it all..

TJ-

you, and other people always seem to talk about the past. Forget what did happen and what countries did before. Its a new era and you cant compare past wars and conflicts with what is going on today.

digerati

Yes you can. We are products of our past both genetically and sociologically. You're telling me that this new era of slap on the wrists for CEOs who rob people of their pensions, the money they were using to retire on, is in no way similar to how things happened in the past?

You're telling me than when France proposed to go into Africa because of the cleansing, but then didn't send their troops without troop support from countries like US they were thinking of helping the Africans? Give me a break.

TJ-

That my friend is call being human. Money talks, and if you dont have it you are insignificant. In the past i dont think things were like that. People didnt do what they did back then for the same reasons they do now. As for the war situation, the current war is being discuised as a war on terror, which it is not. These people might be classed as terrorists as per the dictionary, but they are an army. Thats why its different to ww1 and ww2 and even vietnam.

digerati

Money talks, and it talks in every nation there is. The countries in the war have something to gain from it, the same as the countries who opposed the war. Oil for Food anyone? It's all about money, and no country is more innocent than the next. It's all a matter of money.

I support the war because I think Saddamn needed to die and the middle east needs to evolve already. Throwing battery acid on women who want to vote, have sex before marriage, or any reason they feel like it. I'm sorry, some serious re-structuring has to happen over there.

TJ-

torturing prisoners, putting them in a pymaryid naked and abusing them with dogs while taking pictures of it, bombing the shit out of schools and family homes, detaining people with out warrent and locking them up for life with out legal council. Saddam did many things yes, but the US govt does alot to, just cause u dont hear about it dont mean it doesnt happen. And no country will gain as much as the US with this war. I guess thats why they are so determined. Do you really thing Bush cares about the people that Saddam tortured....NO...


edit... the middle east will evolve in its own way, not the way that the world wants it to... It has been set back 10 yrs i think...

digerati

We as American's don't enjoy torture, I doubt Bush does. But Saddamn did, that's the difference.

And no country will gain as much as the US with this war, but no other country has put in as much as the US, so it only seems fair. To the victor goes the spoils. At least we didn't turn around like France and Russia and suddenly offer to help after we had invaded and investigated scandals

Like I said, no country is innocent, none is really better than the other. And if you're going to debate something you shouldn't base it on the country.

"America does bla diddy bla bla torture, blowing up, yadda yadda" why don't you take it as each event? You don't. Because you like the clump it together to paint America a certain way. We all do, it's a matter of self justifications. In order to speak bad about something we have to demoralize it, paint it black, make it a bad guy. Well this is a debate forum, not a throw dirt forum.

We need to be exhanging ideas and views based as objectively as possible. If we don't, we won't progress anywhere.

LeanWolf

you're losing it now. looked to me and most of the world like the idiots doing the torturing were having a grand ol time. and who believes they weren't acting on orders from above? just like those soldiers who shoot unarmed people with their hands in the air in a mosque.

digerati

As a general consensus we don't like torture. And I have a good way to prove it.

When the torture scandel came out it was shocking, that's why it got so much air time. That's why things like the beheading videos stir up stuff like that here, it's just not what we like or are used to.

Now if you're in Iraq, and you feel those people are your enemies and would kill you if they had the chance, then you would start creating your own system of justifications to de-humanize them and make yourself feel dominant and superior. It's all sick to me and most people I know but stuff like that obviously happened.

It's all about justifications. We all do them. We tell ourselves it's alright if we have this candy bar because we'll run it off later. Or when we ignore someone we tell ourselves it's because we don't have time. Same thing applies here. Those people let those justifications go to far.

And like I said, no country is innocent. Not America, not UK, not France, not Germany, not Russian, no one is innocent. We would all like to think they are. But they're not, so quit trying to clump everything into one country vs. another, just take individual things as they come.

TJ-

What are your opions on Australia ^_^ ?

LeanWolf

obviously. so where's the difference? do irakis "as a general concensus" like torture? Don't kid yourself, just because it's illegal and you don't like it doesn't mean your government doesn't use it whenever they feel like it.
sure every country does the same, but when the people of the world find out a country is commiting attrocities then stop whining that nobody likes you. When countries invade other countries for profit, they usually get a bad reputation. Sure removing Sadam's regime was a good thing, but noone believes for a second that america cares about the people of any other country, especially a country that hates america. America has been known to put a bloody regime in power (e.g. panama) so long as it benefits them somehow.
You're tired of this? better learn to live with it because it doesn't look like anything's about to change!

Zelig

The problem with us middlemen is that we end up being opposed to everyone in politcial debates.

Falstaff

hey...what about liberal republicans

without the past there can be no perspective, nor lessons learned

excellent point....your getting close to the crux of the real problem.

The war on terror is very very real, without current safeguards in place, terrorists would have reduced our countries infrastructure to smoldering ruins...and this a historical fact. One mans terrorist is another mans martyr is a hotly debated point. But what are the islamist extremist groups really fighting for? That I would like to debate, not this "us" and "them" partisan politics I often hear.

very good point, the root of all evil is more than just money though.

no one is above reproach, but the IRAQI people are used as shields for covert insurgent activity, surely no one is immune to hostile fire from either side, it is a tragic and dangerous business fighting the peace.

the problem with us "middlemen" is that we know when someone is full of excrement and find it difficult to find the appropriately sized shovel to pile it right back up where it belongs.

OldBuzzard

As for the original post in here, the sinking of the Lusitania was not the only, nor was it the principle reason the the US entered. It was just the most 'visible'.

The 'Zimmerman Telegram' from the German foreign secretary, to the German Ambassador to Mexico was a bigger reason the the Lusitnania. It stated the following: On the first of February, 1917, submarine warfare will be reinstated unrestrictively. The US has to stay neutral. Germany proposes an alliance with Mexico on the following basis: If the US goes to war, Mexico must fight on the home front in a financially supported alliance with Germany. If Mexico agrees to fight, they will reconquer New Mexico, Texas and Arizona.

Another reason was that the U.S. had huge economic investments with the British and French. If they were to lose, then they would not be able to pay the U.S. debt back (amounting to about 2 billion dollars while Germany only borrowed a mere 27 million).

digerati

That's what I said, although the new estimated number has been upped to 8 1/2 billion including sales, leases, and loans to the allies. I said the Lusitania was a cover lol

Esaz666

Its good to see people realizing that a country in itself is not wholely responsible for the actions of its leaders.
A country is just a name.

how can we learn if we erase the past from our memories, history repeats itself in the remorseless cycle of time,over and over.
Civilizations rise and fall.

people will allways fight other people,maybe this must happen for whatever reason , the world is getting too full anyway.

The balance of our planet is damaged and we scurry about like rats with plague destroying more nature.

im no hippy but I do wonder where we are heading. We all have blood on our hands,
even you ( yes you ,at the back ,sat at your computer!!) sitting watching
while our leaders murder and big business steam-rolls our counrtryside for profit.

but what can we do about it ?.moan on a discusion page?.any ideas anyone ?

cue sound .

>>> wind blowing..........

ohh well,what a depressing b*stard i am.
bye.

TJ-

anarchy

revolt

class war!

Dom

Amen.

SaberZ

It's not the entirety of the middle east that should be brought into this discussion. Not every nation there treats their people the same.


The same can be said for every country in the world. The US could use the money it has spent to better itself etc rather than invest in foreign counterparts. As great as Globalism is, when things hit the fan, everyone is effected. Much like in business its better to invest in ones self to better ones self immediatly rather than invest in others with much more risk.

Esaz666

LOL

raid517

Been there.

Seen that.

Done that.

Sadly it didn't work. Which all in all is a bit of a shame really, since I often find myself scrabbling for ideas too. But idealism is dead - or at least it seems to be. Communism was a flop, Fascism didn't really hit the mark either and imperialism proved too costly - so what's left other than mediocrity? Some claim capitalism is the answer - and in some ways it does seem to work, until you scratch beneath the surface a little and uncover all of the grotesque absurdities that come along with it as part of the package. Some people say that 'capatalism won'. But I often think that capatalism is all there is when there is nothing else.

But anyway as to the subject, no we can't just go on throwing the past at each other. But I don't think that's really the point. It is certain people's interpretation of the past that often troubles me. In this I mean the way they see perfection in everything that their country does or has ever tried to do. Personally I am proud of my country for many things - but not irrationally so. I acknowledge many of the things we have done wrong in the past, many of which serve greatly to temper my pride. But ultimately if push comes to shove, I remain loyal to my roots. I think my country has done many great things - as has America - and as have many other nations around the world. However I think it is only when we can all learn to admit and accept the things we have done wrong as well as the things we have done right (and not try to make excuses for them) that we will ever stand any chance of getting along together.

After all the purpose of a conscience is to make us better people. Without that - and without a proper reference to the past - we are little more than animals.

GJ