Cypress trees in Madrid

Falstaff · Mar 11, 2005, 08:15 AM

One year ago, a terrible blast tore ten train cars apart and destroyed the lives of thousands and killed almost two hundred. The scars and the emotional tragedy will continue to haunt the very soul of Spain until the perpatrators are found and convicted. Many suspects, and many martyrs for Islam later, Spain is no closer to eliminating the problem of their own sepratists and the terrorists that used that country as a staging ground for terror, including 9/11.
It was easy to assume that the attack was a response to Spains involvement in the overthrow of IRAQ and other NATO obligations, but in fact terrorist have been using Spain for over twenty years to stage attacks.
And now Cypress trees mark the souls of the dead, and the world shifts its focus elsewhere.
It is time for the prosecution and the pro-active efforts of Interpol and the Coalition to discover and behead the Hydra of death.
How do you all feel about this, isnt it time to destroy the insidious threats, the fifth column that lives, enjoys freedom in other countrys only to bring death to its citizens.

raid517 · Mar 11, 2005, 09:30 AM

Mmm... My guess is that that's up to the Spanish. Although as I recall Spain pulled out of Iraq (after the government fell in the aftermath of the attack) due to specific terrorist warnings by terror groups in that country that if they didn't leave there would be similar attacks mounted against them. So it's hard not to make the association with the attacks and Spain's (then) involvement in the Iraq war.

There was a massive anti-war sentiment in Spain prior to the war - but just as in Britain the Spanish government chose to simply ignore the vast body of public opinion. The sentiment was that any involvement by Spain in such a war would serve only to promote the cause of terrorism and spread it's effects and an increased anti-Western sentiment towards Spain - who was already, as has been pointed out, experiencing difficulty in dealing with her own highly complex internal struggles.

So when the attacks happend, those who had resisted entry into the war felt vindicated (though no doubt no less saddened) so that eventually the government in power at that time lost almost all validity and authority with the electorate.

Should Interpol and the various secret services of this and other countries act? I think they should and probably are.

GJ

Asmoday · Mar 11, 2005, 09:48 AM

I voted "covertly dissect threats with precision and minimal impact." I feel it's important not to go blasting in and give the terrorists more publicity than neceassary, it's better too silently just cut the heads of one by one until the hydra is no more. That probably won't be very easy though cause it's head probably will grow back if left alone for too long...

bug77 · Mar 11, 2005, 10:06 AM

Aggresively pursue. Hunt them down and let them know it

But seriously though, the problem is much more complex than that...

Falstaff · Mar 11, 2005, 04:15 PM

I know the spanish government prefers individual freedoms over a military response to the treats...

[)arkNova · Mar 11, 2005, 05:57 PM

After that attack,the terrorist won a victory. They made Spain pull out of Iraq. This happened because the leader who backed Bush was ahead in the polls before the attack then lost the election after the attack. I know many liberals are going to say that wasn't so, but that is what happened and the terrorist believe they changed the outcome of the Spain election also.Bin Laden tried the same thing to the US with a video threat,but didn't work.

raid517 · Mar 11, 2005, 06:07 PM

The terrorists didn't change or win anything. Spain's government simply refused to listen to their people - the vast majority of whom had said all along that they didn't want to get into a war with Iraq. There had been mass demonstrations in Spain against the war, even before the war had started. There was naturally even bigger demonstrations after the attacks occurred. The Spanish prime minister was just not a very popular guy at that time - and he would probably have lost the election even without the attacks.

I may not agree with the war in Iraq, because I think it has little to do with fighting terrorism, but I certainly do not believe in giving credit to terrorists where it almost undoubtedly is not due.

GJ

[)arkNova · Mar 11, 2005, 07:27 PM

no just a few days before the election,the former prime minister was ahead in the polls/After the attack his poll numbers fell to losing.It don't matter how I or you believe how the attacks effected the election. Bin Laden thinks he won that battle.I think he did change the minds of the Spainards with fear.

raid517 · Mar 11, 2005, 08:00 PM

Well I can't be arsed trolling through all the news reports and opinion polls for the Spanish elections. It's more effort than it's worth. But if he was ahead in the opinion polls, it must have been some kind of last minute surge (and even then it couldn't have been much). I remember the protests across Europe (and East Asia too for that matter) and there was already a huge body of public opinion that was against the war. Indeed things were very similar in my own country. No doubt if Tony Blair had faced an election too just after he took the UK into the war, he would probably have lost aswell - as his popularity sunk to an all time low. Thankfully for him perhaps, people are beginning to concern themselves with other issues, and his fortunes have recovered somewhat.

In the case of Spain who knows what the outcome would have been. Elections are never over until they are over - and if the opinion polls were anything meaningful, you would probably have John Kerry as your President right now. What you or I think is irrelevant. We can't go back and change the past in order to test our theories.

Anyway if you want to give Bin Laden credit for something he probably doesn't deserve, then fine. That's your choice. I think you will find however that the Spanish - and people in general - have a little more guts and determination than to simply let some cheap terrorist push them around.

Best regards,

GJ

TJ- · Mar 11, 2005, 08:39 PM

last one for me

Falstaff · Mar 14, 2005, 08:29 AM

But Spain is still a staging ground for terrorist activity, and Spain is struggling with that issue and asking help from the EU to rectify those issues.

Danhill · Mar 14, 2005, 08:35 AM

covertly dissect threats with precision and minimal impact.

View Poll Results: How should we deal with the terrorist threat
Aggressively pursue them to their hiding places regardless of the political liability	3	25.00%
Address them as a political body, negotiate and find a comprimise	1	8.33%
covertly dissect threats with precision and minimal impact.	4	33.33%
Inflitrate, and maintain intelligience about these threats, and intervene when necessary.	5	41.67%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 12. This poll is closed

Mar 11, 2005, 08:15 AM	#1
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 18,143 Rep Power: 131	Cypress trees in Madrid One year ago, a terrible blast tore ten train cars apart and destroyed the lives of thousands and killed almost two hundred. The scars and the emotional tragedy will continue to haunt the very soul of Spain until the perpatrators are found and convicted. Many suspects, and many martyrs for Islam later, Spain is no closer to eliminating the problem of their own sepratists and the terrorists that used that country as a staging ground for terror, including 9/11. It was easy to assume that the attack was a response to Spains involvement in the overthrow of IRAQ and other NATO obligations, but in fact terrorist have been using Spain for over twenty years to stage attacks. And now Cypress trees mark the souls of the dead, and the world shifts its focus elsewhere. It is time for the prosecution and the pro-active efforts of Interpol and the Coalition to discover and behead the Hydra of death. How do you all feel about this, isnt it time to destroy the insidious threats, the fifth column that lives, enjoys freedom in other countrys only to bring death to its citizens. __________________ The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe.

Mar 11, 2005, 09:30 AM	#2
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Mmm... My guess is that that's up to the Spanish. Although as I recall Spain pulled out of Iraq (after the government fell in the aftermath of the attack) due to specific terrorist warnings by terror groups in that country that if they didn't leave there would be similar attacks mounted against them. So it's hard not to make the association with the attacks and Spain's (then) involvement in the Iraq war. There was a massive anti-war sentiment in Spain prior to the war - but just as in Britain the Spanish government chose to simply ignore the vast body of public opinion. The sentiment was that any involvement by Spain in such a war would serve only to promote the cause of terrorism and spread it's effects and an increased anti-Western sentiment towards Spain - who was already, as has been pointed out, experiencing difficulty in dealing with her own highly complex internal struggles. So when the attacks happend, those who had resisted entry into the war felt vindicated (though no doubt no less saddened) so that eventually the government in power at that time lost almost all validity and authority with the electorate. Should Interpol and the various secret services of this and other countries act? I think they should and probably are. GJ Last edited by raid517; Mar 11, 2005 at 09:36 AM.

Mar 11, 2005, 09:48 AM	#3
Asmoday Demonic Join Date: May 2002 Location: In the cold, dark north... Posts: 5,184 Rep Power: 69 System Specs	I voted "covertly dissect threats with precision and minimal impact." I feel it's important not to go blasting in and give the terrorists more publicity than neceassary, it's better too silently just cut the heads of one by one until the hydra is no more. That probably won't be very easy though cause it's head probably will grow back if left alone for too long... __________________ How You can help Driverheaven by using Digg

Mar 11, 2005, 04:15 PM	#5
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 18,143 Rep Power: 131	I know the spanish government prefers individual freedoms over a military response to the treats... __________________ The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe.

Mar 11, 2005, 10:06 AM	#4
bug77 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: around Posts: 792 Rep Power: 0	Aggresively pursue. Hunt them down and let them know it But seriously though, the problem is much more complex than that...

Mar 11, 2005, 05:57 PM	#6
[)arkNova DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 99 Rep Power: 0	After that attack,the terrorist won a victory. They made Spain pull out of Iraq. This happened because the leader who backed Bush was ahead in the polls before the attack then lost the election after the attack. I know many liberals are going to say that wasn't so, but that is what happened and the terrorist believe they changed the outcome of the Spain election also.Bin Laden tried the same thing to the US with a video threat,but didn't work. __________________ [color=blue]Barton 2500 @ 202 X 11 [/color] [color=red]@ 1.675V[/color] [color=deepskyblue]1Gb of 3200 cosair @ 404 [/color] [color=red]@ 2.7V[/color] [color=blue]AN35N Ultra[/color] [color=deepskyblue]9600xt 550/660[/color] [color=blue]Thermaltake pipe 101 @ 42C/31C[/color] [color=red]Fortron 530W[/color]

Mar 11, 2005, 06:07 PM	#7
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	The terrorists didn't change or win anything. Spain's government simply refused to listen to their people - the vast majority of whom had said all along that they didn't want to get into a war with Iraq. There had been mass demonstrations in Spain against the war, even before the war had started. There was naturally even bigger demonstrations after the attacks occurred. The Spanish prime minister was just not a very popular guy at that time - and he would probably have lost the election even without the attacks. I may not agree with the war in Iraq, because I think it has little to do with fighting terrorism, but I certainly do not believe in giving credit to terrorists where it almost undoubtedly is not due. GJ

Mar 11, 2005, 07:27 PM	#8
[)arkNova DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 99 Rep Power: 0	no just a few days before the election,the former prime minister was ahead in the polls/After the attack his poll numbers fell to losing.It don't matter how I or you believe how the attacks effected the election. Bin Laden thinks he won that battle.I think he did change the minds of the Spainards with fear. __________________ [color=blue]Barton 2500 @ 202 X 11 [/color] [color=red]@ 1.675V[/color] [color=deepskyblue]1Gb of 3200 cosair @ 404 [/color] [color=red]@ 2.7V[/color] [color=blue]AN35N Ultra[/color] [color=deepskyblue]9600xt 550/660[/color] [color=blue]Thermaltake pipe 101 @ 42C/31C[/color] [color=red]Fortron 530W[/color]

Mar 11, 2005, 08:00 PM	#9
raid517 DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,518 Rep Power: 0	Well I can't be arsed trolling through all the news reports and opinion polls for the Spanish elections. It's more effort than it's worth. But if he was ahead in the opinion polls, it must have been some kind of last minute surge (and even then it couldn't have been much). I remember the protests across Europe (and East Asia too for that matter) and there was already a huge body of public opinion that was against the war. Indeed things were very similar in my own country. No doubt if Tony Blair had faced an election too just after he took the UK into the war, he would probably have lost aswell - as his popularity sunk to an all time low. Thankfully for him perhaps, people are beginning to concern themselves with other issues, and his fortunes have recovered somewhat. In the case of Spain who knows what the outcome would have been. Elections are never over until they are over - and if the opinion polls were anything meaningful, you would probably have John Kerry as your President right now. What you or I think is irrelevant. We can't go back and change the past in order to test our theories. Anyway if you want to give Bin Laden credit for something he probably doesn't deserve, then fine. That's your choice. I think you will find however that the Spanish - and people in general - have a little more guts and determination than to simply let some cheap terrorist push them around. Best regards, GJ Last edited by raid517; Mar 12, 2005 at 02:15 PM.

Mar 11, 2005, 08:39 PM	#10
TJ- DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Infinity Posts: 3,682 Rep Power: 0	last one for me __________________ new sig comming soon

Mar 14, 2005, 08:29 AM	#11
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 18,143 Rep Power: 131	But Spain is still a staging ground for terrorist activity, and Spain is struggling with that issue and asking help from the EU to rectify those issues. __________________ The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe.

Mar 14, 2005, 08:35 AM	#12
Danhill DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Sweden Posts: 4,116 Rep Power: 0	covertly dissect threats with precision and minimal impact. __________________ MOBO: [color=white]ASUS A8N-SLI Premium[/color] CPU: AMD 64 3200+ (Venice) @ 2,50 Ghz MEM: 2 x 512 DDR 466, VGA: 2 x 6600 GT in SLI, HDD1: WD Raptor HDD2: Maxtor Diamond Plus 9, Case: Antec Plus View 1080, PSU: ThermalTake PurePower 500W, MX 1000, Dell 2001 FP, Aud. 2 SZ