War on terrorism or not

[)arkNova

You are confusing the govt actions to company's actions. They aren't the same. You don't understand,US govt isn't the same as big socialist,who have their hand in most of their company's bussiness. American bussiness has more freedom to do bussiness. US bussiness don't equal US govt actions.So don't confuse the issue or cloud it.You ignored my part of the post also. The French,Russia,and Germany are denying any wrong happened,America said there was. Why would America push for an investigation and the French,russia,and Germany don't want one? Because they are guilty,America isn't.

raid517

Again more drivel. So you think that the companies in these other countries are owned and controlled by communist/socialist governments - and that by implication therefore these countries must also by nature be communist too? What a complete load of bull, France isn't Communist. Neither is Russia (indeed Russia has swung very far to the right in recent years), nor certainly is Germany - which is still the biggest and richest economy in Europe (and third overall in the world behind Japan), nor indeed is the UK - given that the UK is the one country in the world that virtually pioneered the concept of global capitalism and free market economics. You imagine that somehow the US has a monopoly on how best to run a private enterprise? Well explain then why your economy is so far in the red - when the economies of many of those countries you so readily belittle are positively booming? We do more than fine when it comes to allowing our industries and businessmen all the freedom they could ever possibly need to flourish. All comments like this do is expose your arrogance and ignorance of other countries and cultures even further - and make you look small and petty and grossly misinformed about the world in which you live. Have you ever even once been outside of the US and visited any of these countries? What do you really know about the economies, or the cutures, or the history of the people you so readily disdain? Clearly, given your answers up until now, the only possible conclusion anyone can come to is nothing. That you my friend are little more than an ignorant. arrogant conceited oaf. Still I invite you to keep digging, as I think sooner rather than later you are going to end up burying yourself in all the garbage that you talk.

Your American government may have initiated the investigation, but ultimately that was just a means to an end. It was a worthwhile thing to do, if in the end it enabled them to achieve their goal of allowing them to go after Iraq. If an American company gets caught out, they get a fake slap on the wrist, the government gets Iraq, the Oil Companies get the contract to pump Iraqi oil and George Bush gets to give the UN a good kicking. Everyone is a winner (At least from the perspective of some on the American right). All of these companies acted independently. There is no evidence at all that the govenments of any member countries were directly responsible for any involvement in any alleged corruption. If there was corruption it was down to the company executives, directors and major shareholders of these companies at that time. And the French and German, and British and Russian governments are cooperating fully with the investigation. So far they have not denied (or admitted) to anything. What more can they be expected to do other than cooperate? It is the individual companies involved who are denying any wrong doing - which as I pointed out also includes several of the biggest names in the American oil industry. Essentially it seems we are back on to this argument that simply being American somehow makes you infallible. (Which as this might be a big word for you, means 'incapable of wrong doing and God like). There is no evidence at all that being American makes you infallible - otherwise there wouldn't be such a terrible crime rate in your country, nor would corruption and corporate crime be as common as it is in your society as is very clearly the case right now. This stuff happens - and it happens everywhere - and your country is no exception.

GJ

[)arkNova

Wrong wrong wrong again.So many untruths I know not how to begin. Our economy more in the red than France and Germany? France is 10% uneployment rate. Germany is 12% uneployment. America is a low 5.6%. We are better off. Did you get your info from some hate group?Also I didn't say France and Germany are communist. They are socialist. Socialist govts keep there hands into too much regulation. Like the other day,France's idea to reduce the unemployment is to limit worker's hours to 35 hrs. That way they need to hire more.That is crap because the other workers took a pay cut.Our idea to fix unemployment is give tax cuts.That gives more money in our pockets.That allows us to spend more.Companies hire more because of the need to make more products.That is more a solid idea.At this moment,we are at the strongest rate of growth in 20 years.I know our unemployment is 5.6%,not perfect,but personally I don't know anyone unemployed.And I know a lot of people.The bottom line France and Germany were getting kick backs from Saddam.They are hidding it.America is leading the investigation because they aren't guilty. American companies had a right to do bussiness with Iraq at the time before the investigation.Thats how the oil for food program suppose to have worked.Don't you get it?

raid517

I do get it. But I still think you don't. I don't think relative unemployment rates are a measure of how 'socialist' a country is. When the Soviet Union was in place they had pretty much full employment. It was a complete mess granted, but it does show that unemployment isn't always a measure of how socialist or not a country might be. And the French government did not recently 'just cut the working week to 35 hours.' That was something that has been in place for 18 or so years. And it wasn't a measure imposed on the French people by their government - it was something that the French people themselves demanded in order to improve the quality of their lives. The French mentality (in case you haven't noticed) is somewhat different to many others. They don't believe in slavishly tying yourself to a job for very little reward. They don't see material gain as the only valuable or worthwhile asset in life - and the value social interaction and more time spent with their families as being infinitely more rewarding than money alone could ever be. I mean where else in the world can you go for a lunch break from your job and typically not be expected to come back for two or three hours? It is a different set of values my friend - a different culture - and it is little wonder to me that many Americans find this difficult to understand. But ask yourself who is really more free? a French citizen who works 35 hours a week, spends lot's of time socialising, chatting, eating out (a lot of business meetings in France are done over Lunch), spending time with their wives, with their children or with their friends - or simply pursuing their other interests or passions - or an American who is tied to a tiny little cubical with a computer console for 65 hours a week - and who barely has time to take a piss, let alone spend any time with their kids? If this is your idea of freedom, it is little wonder so few people are willing to embrace it.

What the French government did do recently though was announce that they intended to abolish the 35 hour week and move to a 40 hour week - and that they were gearing up to introduce legislation to enable this - even if this meant taking on the unions to do so. There is no doubt going to be a great deal of resistance over this, not from the French government, but from the vast majority of French people. So all things considered,, this doesn't seem like a very socialist spirited thing for the government to do.

And even though the German unemployment rate may be high, it's GDP remains among the highest in the world. (Unlike in the US where your GDP has fallen significantly - but your government simply continues to borrow money to make up the shortfall). Since this would be difficult to achieve in a truly socialist country it is difficult to see how this fits in with your notion that Germany is somehow a leftist and corrupt country. Germany is suffering to an extent at the moment, but this is due in no small part to having reabsorbed almost a full half of their country through reunification in 1989/1990. Prior to that period, East Germany had been managed (or mismanaged) by what was known then as the Soviet Union - and had endured almost 60 years of blatant neglect. Germany is still reeling from having absorbed this huge burden - and it is likely that they will continue to pay for it for a very long time yet. But the Germans are a uniquely efficient and industrious nation - recent estimates suggest that at the current rate Germany will have fully paid for the cost of unification with East Germany within the next 20 years (not bad given the previous 60 years of neglect it had endured) and that unemployment rates by that time will be back down to below their pre unification levels. (Which if you care to look that figure up I'm sure you will find were very much lower than they are now). Also your unemployment rate is a national unemployment rate, if you look at the numbers state by state, I think you will find that these numbers actually vary greatly. This is also the case in Germany, where the unemployment rate in the old East German cities and towns is very much greater than it is in the West of the country. So just taking national rates in isolation does not always paint a very accurate picture.

Again it is a nonsense that simply because a company is American that it is above suspicion. If there was no cause for suspicion, then why are they being investigated? To date the spotlight of suspicion has fallen fairly equally over everyone who was involved in the Oil for food program. Nor have there been any conclusions drawn yet - despite the fact that it is clear that you personally have already made up your mind.

As for 'hate' I think you have more than a monopoly on this particular sentiment. America and Americans are it seems in your eyes 'close to perfection' (or superior) - all other economies and countries pail by comparison and are either weak, socialist or corrupt - or all of these. And Americans are in all instances above suspicion, no matter what the circumstances or whatever the charges that may be laid against them.

It very much sounds to me that what you are saying is that all other countries are weak, decadent and corrupt when compared to your country and that America and Americans are some kind of 'master race' that has been uniquely chosen by God to dominate the Earth.

Which unfortunately would make you nothing more than a cheap nasty little Nazi.

Still, it's a free world I guess. But this is really a good example of why a lot of people don't like you guys. I wouldn't go as far as to say that they just dislike all Americans, but they do intensely dislike that section of your society who express these kind of views. It is just this gut wrenching and truly sickening level of arrogance that we find hard to swallow. My own country fought a war to rid the world of people who thought like this - and in the process lost many hundreds of thousands of our citizens (although I'm sure you will be surprised to learn that it wasn't just Americans who died in that war) so don't expect me to start agreeing with you any time soon.

GJ

[)arkNova

I believe you think I believe all Americans can do no wrong. I know there are some American companies that do corrupt things. I see it on the news about American and other countries' companies. The oil for food program wasn't controled by any given company. The UN with Annan, with his son, was managing that. If any American company did something under the table,I don't know what that would be,the American govt will not protect them.They are on thier own.Also calling me a Nazi will not get you anywhere.Liberals will always go to name calling when they are down.I will take no excuses in why the majority of socialist countries,not all,aren't doing well.They had years to get their little countries on their feet.It is their socialist agenda. Giving more control to the govt,not the people.Not communism,but closer to it than the American way.America loves freedom and we will spread it as much as we can.With or without socialist help.Britian seems to love it too.I like Britian. They also see what we see.

Sandok

Just to keep the argument going. Raid I 100% agree with you. And Darknova. Do you ever think your wrong? Socialist this socialist that. Dude get some info before you critsize anything. Do you think socialist countries don't have your "freedom". This whole world has tons of freedom except a few rare cases but NOOOO, americans think that only they got freedom and must give it to everyone cuz jesus sent them for that mission. That's neo liberilsm bullshit.

kelticknight

couldn't agree with you more sandok.
now have more important things to do ,than this repeat thread

raid517

Well it might be comforting for you to know that the vast majority of Britain's don't like you - or at least people who think like you. Polls in this country show George W. Bush (and his relative policies) to be the single most unpopular President in history. So don't delude yourself. Tony Blair was simply fulfiling an obligation he felt he had to Iraq - even though most people here thought he was utterly wrong.

As for whether or not you are a Nazi, the Nazis believed that they were the greatest people on Earth, that their military was superior, that their economic policies were better than any other country's, that they were morally and intellectually superior than any other nation, that indeed they were 'closer to perfection' than any other race on the planet - and also that there were leftist/communist influences at play in many of the other governments around the world. At various points or other, these are all attitudes that you have also expressed. And as the old saying goes - 'if the label fits, wear it!' (Although in your case it might well be an arm band).

In my view people who express opinions like this are scum my friend - the scum of the Earth indeed. And just as my grandfather did I would happily take up arms and fight them in another war if and when the opportunity arose. All of the people who died in the last war, did not die simply so that another bunch of mad men could rise up and tell the world that the Germans had been wrong and that actually it was they who were really the master race.

That is the problem you get when you have your politicians and your education system and your television shows continually telling you that 'America is the greatest!' because unfortunately there are enough idiots and crazy people out there who eventually are willing to take it seriously.

You need to learn a hard lesson mate - and that is that you (and all Americans) are no better than anyone else in this world and I sincerely hope that there is an opportunity one day soon where someone will teach you this. As the old saying goes, 'arrogance always comes before a fall.'

And I assure you that your time is comming. Of that there is no doubt.

GJ



And despite

Falstaff

In terms of "our time is coming" we as a nation have been visted and revisted by threats externally and internally and we have survived because we are willing to sacrifice what ever it takes to obtain the victory and gain the freedom. When it comes to politics who really knows the mind of the chief executive? My only fear is that this war on terrorism we are waging has been going on for quite some time, and is greater in dimension and scope than most people realize. Our greatest battle is not the wars we fight....it is the Peace.

raid517

I'm not just talking about ordinary American people Jeff. There are plenty of ordinary decent Americans out there. It is simply that certain segment of your society that frequently express views similar to that above. Those are the people I despise - and those are the ones (regarless of whether they are American, or French, or German, or Italian - or whoever) that I would gladly take up the oportunity to take up arms against.

Nationalism is nothing more than a profound force for evil in this world - and this is a reality that has been proven time and again throughout history.

It does nothing to make the concept of nationalism any more attractive, simply because often on these forums we find it is an American expressing these views.

Best regards,

GJ

[)arkNova

I want you to know,my grandfather bombed Berlin in WWII.He survived it and I support everything he did.YOU,Raid are taking cheap shots. No evidence to support in saying what I believe. You twist my words around like an expert liar and liberal hack. When I was talking about being "more perfect",I was talking about the struggle to achieve goals to make the world a better place.You try to hint that I was talking about a "superior" race or " master" race like the Nazis. Like the spin master you are,you tried to make it sound like I was talking about the Nazi's idea of the master race. DO YOU have to lie to win an agrument?Also if Britians didn't like the US,they can always elect leaders who don't support the US.Right?But they are not.Don't always believe what you hear in your biased news you're watching.

Necrosis

Only in response to left wing tree hugging American bashers.

When did these dicussions go from about the current world situation to the psyche of America? To me this shows a distain for Americans in general, and I imagine quite a few of you even before Bush was put in office had these views.

Amazing isn't it? People who preach about evils of hatred are it's biggest offenders.

raid517

I think you will find that hating people who promote hatred of others is pretty much generally accepted as a noble sentiment. I make, nor will I ever make, any excuses whatsoever for hating people who express obnoxious, conceited, hateful and spiteful views towards others purely based on their nationality. From what we have gathered here it seems clear that a certain section of this forum membership view many peoples from other countries as weak, decadent and lacking when compared to them - for all of the reasons I pointed out previously. In what way, if any, does this differ from the views of many of those who believed similar things in Germany in World War Two? Clearly there is very little margin of difference.

And I am glad your grandfather survived arkNova, unfortunately mine didn't. So I have very good reasons to despise the influence of nationalism in this world.

In any case those were a different generation - quite different from this one - they were considerate, caring, supportive and genuinely opposed to evil and I support everything they did with the fullest extent of my being.

However from a nationalist perspective looking back today, it is easy to see how these efforts could become perverted. Nationalists cannot peacefully or indefinitely live in this world together. Eventually and inevitably they will come to blows. If you have two (or more) countries in this world all professing that 'they are the greatest', have the best people, the best military, the highest achievable set of social values, the best possible economic system - that everything about their way of life is just so much better than anyone else's - then clearly that just cannot be; you cannot have two countries that are both somehow 'the greatest.' Inevitably from this point of view, there can ultimately only be one. And that I regret to say is the perspective through which many of you guys appear to view not just the world today, but of history, of World War Two and of everything that went before it as well.

For you Germany could not have been the greatest - because clearly in your minds it was America and Americans who were the greatest. Nor can any country be your equal, since you will always find things wanting in these societies when compared to your own. That is why nationalism in this world is an impractical ideal - and will always lead to conflict - because there is an inescapable racial element to nationalism that tells you that if indeed you are 'the greatest' then all other things when held in comparison must be inferior. And when you have two separate countries who think like this, sooner or later there must be a show down and when there is, the only possible outcome is war.

And anyway arkNova, if you didn't mean all of the things you said about these other countries, why did you bring them up? I easily showed you how wrong you were on almost every point you made - and I will be happy to continue doing so. If all you intended to say was that America was a nice country to live in, why did you make so much effort to show these other countries (which you clearly have very little knowledge of) in such a grossly distorted and negative light?

Also I believe at one point you did refer to me as you 'boy' - a term I know that many of your countrymen used in your recent past (and continue to use today) when referring to people they consider to be of inferior race and/or social status. If you didn't believe I was racially inferior, then why would you choose to use this term?

As for the 'support' my country has offered in the past. I think this is a little overplayed. The UK is essentially a trading nation - and always has been for the last maybe 1800 years. In many ways we are the seat of the capitalist ideal. We virtually invented free market economics and the global trading system - although our approach was somewhat different from your own. We export a vast quantity of our goods to US markets (though the trade does seem to be rather one way - in that we don't appear to import very much) as well as to the EU, the far East and other markets around the world. So in many ways it is simply about protecting our investments. This might seem harsh (and I certainly don't admire it) but ultimately there is little room for sentiment when it comes to good business.

But there was more than this in Tony Blair's mind when he agreed to go after Iraq. The UK has a long history in Iraq - many Iraqis still regard Britain (rightly or wrongly) as the 'father' of Iraq. Tony Blair thought he could have a positive influence in a post Saddam Iraq and he believed we retained an obligation to the ordinary citizens of that country. He believed (as he had done from the beginning, right from going through the whole UN process to the end of the war) that he could also moderate some of George Bush's more misinformed actions and provide an insight into how best to manage and deal with the many complexities confronting the Iraqi people.

He also genuinely thought that the opportunity existed to put all of the tyrants of the world on the ropes. I don't think he bargained with the fact that in going after one dictator, George W. would promptly jump into bed with a whole bunch of new ones. He miscalculated. Plain and simple.

And anyway it is hardly a trend now is it? There was the Iraq war, then the last Iraq war, then it was you guys who came in with us (and not the other way around) in the two previous World Wars. And for your information we didn't elect Tony Blair on the basis that he would invade Iraq, as when he was elected the subject of an Iraqi war wasn't even on the table. However when the war did start, his personal popularity rating sunk to an all time low - and he has still never really recovered from this in this country. There are going to be elections in the UK in a couple of months and while it seems likely that he will be re-elected (based purely on the basis of a set of very sound economic policies and the fact that the UK economy has been booming pretty much since he came to power) it is likely that he will still nonetheless pay a heavy price with the electorate for his little misadventure in Iraq.

So please do not preach to me about the political reality of life in my country - as I doubt you have ever even read a single UK news paper in all of your life.

Certain individuals may wish to defend some of the comments that have been made here, but that is their choice. Personally I don't think views like this give a very good impression of anyone and that those who express them should be thoroughly ashamed of both the impression they give of their country and of the disservice they do to their history.

Freedom is not something you in your country has any monopoly over at all. Countless people around the world have died in the name of freedom - and their deaths and their struggles and the liberties they have won are no way any less valuable than your own.

GJ

The_Neon_Cowboy

That goes both ways all we see in this section is more is 95% anti americanism.

Sorry if eurpoe and other parts of the world rather set on thier hands and let the cards fall where they will. Sorry that places like europe even fail to recognise some terriost groups and even help, fund them or allow them to do as they will.

We try to play ball and get blocked by contries seaking to prected thier own finacial interests and curruptions nothing more nothing less and are force to take thing another way and yet where in the "wrong"

It like not matter what america does it can do no right in your guyes eyes....

(carefull thats border lines a personal attack)

But when where blocked by the corrupt and bribled U.N. and corrupt and bribled un members acting in thier own self interest $ only... Oil for food and massive recent sex scadles involveing even the rape of children and weomon of all ages... The U.N. is under a verry dark shadow indeed....

We didn't get full consent becouse of a few who had massive personal intrests rangeing from baned arms, contra band, 1441 voilating goods, oil for food scandlem oil deals ... etc you name it...

as you put let the law enforce ment do it job? um the law enforcement wonb't do it job it sides with the people that murderd your girlfreind and say hell they pay me well they did nothing wrong...

All it takes for evil to flurish if for good men to do nothing..
and your countires aprealy doing nothing...


nother will yours change of views... rember other contires view
are never ever wrong just amerias right wich can never do any right...

If the world didn't set and crticise ameria all day what would they do? nothing? might beforced to take a look around them ... might not like what they see...

It's last man stading and we are the target not you so you have alot of room to talk. Hopefully some gruops will do some mass killings in you area maybe your might wake up an see things from a diffrent perspective...

Is a terriosts "rights" or personal conferts worth the lives of dozens anywhere up to thousands of men wemon and childreans lives??? hell no!

there should be confision between soldgers and terrists who fallow no such rules them selfs do i need to remind you of beheadings? etc? of american troops and others? You can't say we have this set of tight rule and that other side has no rules and possably even consive of ever winning....

so what we should enbrace eurpoes defeatism? as in we areay lost the figt before a single shot was fire so we give up....

um.. in case you avent check terriost act like anmials why shouldn't they be treated like them? Why is it you insist we fallow a strict set of guide lines

these aren't pre school children were dealing with...

How effective do think politly questioning harded fanatics who are or would rather die then tell you anything. They have to be broken regular tatics don't work... If thier not stressed an put a great discomfort you get nothing... and people die that could have been saved...


good thing the UN and NATO get big bucks from the USA so they can do that huh..


please then present me with thier country, mathing unimforms and flag? you can't...
a group of mad men in civion clothes killing men wemon and children ar hardly a nation...

Why ar we expect to flow strict rules and they fallow 0 rules and no one cares no falts them it seems just america....

even if they where give the red carpet treat ment you guys would still find something to pick at. Like thier personal gorme shefs aren't skilled enough or something . But of couse if they treat them like that there would be alot more dead bodies out there...

I guesses the U.N. Russia and france that made most the money by far. and the french goverment ties directly to the corruption at it higest levels with direct ties...is nothing like a few companies who might have not know or not ben thero enough with indirect ties....

the story ben out for ages, the world defend or ingores the issues
the instant iut came out that some america companies profited it was on evey newstand and in every new story.. funny how lop sided things are..

Shouldn't this forum area be renamed the
anti-amercia-ism forum becouse thats all that seems to go on in here any more...

then maybe make a seprate forum area for the rest of us...

raid517

Oh go away neon. Always with this endless quoting of everything everyone says...

I refer you to the same answers I have given a thousand times over in this forum in the past - and which you continue to simply ignore.

If we are Anti-American, then you are anti-world. You certainly seem to spend a lot of time putting other countries down. Yet again you paint many other countries of the world as poor and weak and incapable of managing their own affairs. Give it up and you will not get the same response in return. It's really quite simple.

And I don't think it's pro-American to be in favour of torture, abuse, and deprivation of civil liberties. In fact reading from your constitution, it seems to me that this is about as anti-America as it is possible to be.

Anyway I'm sure you and ArkNova will get along fine together. You make a well matched pair.

Have fun.

GJ

[)arkNova

thats right Neon.These liberals and/or socialist go on and on about how bad America is. But they say nothing of how bad their country is or was. Their country isn't perfect either then why do they pertend to be. Whenever we say something good about our country,they all say "stop saying your country is perfect".We didn't say any such thing. we only commented about good things about our country. They hate American views.They hate what we stand for. They hate our way of life . They hate that many of us are religious.They hate that we stand our ground against terrorism(they would love if we lost more men in this war).They hate when we help some countries with their freedom. They hate that we have a powerful influence in the economy in the world.They hate the fact that without the US,there is no UN. HATE HATE HATE HATE. Sounds like bin laden has something in common with someone?

PoopyTheJ

NOT! this is a good article http://www.fff.org/comment/com0204f.asp , the whole war on "terra"/war on drugs is simply an excuse to increase control, destroy freedoms and hide the economic destruction of the US. total absolute fraud.

[)arkNova

That article is neither liberal or conservative.that is libertarian. Exteremist in my view.Extreme in the fashion were they believe govt should interfere with almost nothing.

PoopyTheJ