Swift boat vets' stories hold up under fire

lenchmob

Interesting read and it doesn't surprise me one bit...


http://swift4.he.net/~swift4/article...00410010639384

digitalwanderer

OMG, you mean the Swift Boat Veterans for Bush actually verify their own stories?!?!

Who'd of thunk it?

lenchmob

It's no different than Kerry writing his own medal citations is it?

ToshiroOC

I was under the impression that Kerry's CO wrote them.

raid517

Ohh... I don't like to say it, but it wouldn't be the first time the military ever exaggerated a story of heroism now would it?

What about that girl in the Iraq war? They sent a snatch squad in to 'rescue' her from an Iraq hospital. The offical report had her down as firing 'until she ran out of ammo'. But the girl herself claims she gave up as soon as the Iraqis began shooting at her. Exaggeration of this kind is common practice in the US military. People need good stories in time of war to raise their sense of patriotism.

Is that what happend with Kerry?

Who knows.... Maybe it wasn't all BS. But there was a lot of BS around then. The problem is when you make this BS the central plank of the debate.

It doesn't mean I agree it was BS - I just think there is scope for other issues and other debates in this process. Both candidates should focus on the issues now, instead of what did/did not happen 30+ years ago. It might be possible that neither candidate has all that much to boast about from back then.

OldBuzzard

No, they aren't verifying their own story.


That is a re-post of a story that was in the New York Sun. That is very plainly stated (with a link) as the very last line on the page.

lenchmob

The problem with Kerry is that he brought up his war record as an example of his leadership endeavors at the democratic national convention. It's come back to bite him in the rear.

According to numerous accounts of his fellow vets from Vietnam yes John Kerry wrote his own AAR's (after-action reports), and medal citations. Others in Kerry's outfit completed their own after action reports. Their accounts of events that transpired differ completely from John Kerrys?

Why is it that Kerrys version of events differ so completely from the others who served along side him?

raid517

Well before everyone jumps on the bandwaggon, maybe we should take a peek at a movie by someone less critical. http://film.guardian.co.uk/news/stor...201384,00.html

I would love to see this movie before making up my mind. Has anyone seen it? apparently it has just been released in the local cinemas in the US - though I'm not sure how many are all that keen on distributing it - as they all seem to be in favour of Bush.

If anyone sees it, can you please post a review of what you made of it here? If the movie studios won't distribute it, maybe someone here could find a copy and put it on emule or suprnova.org or something.

GJ

Guidoo

Yes it is a quote from "The New York Sun".
The person supplying the story is Larry Thurlow, a member of the Swift Boat
Vets. A paper quoting one of the SBV's is by no stretch of one imagination's
"proof" of anything.

Guido

lenchmob

I purchased the book "Unfit For Command" with an open mind. After reading it I don't think these vets are "spinning" anything. In all fairness I think these vets are angered at what Kerry did in Vietnam, how he did it (wrote his own AA reports/medal citations) and the fact he met with the enemy in Paris. Funny how Kerry met with the enemy while he was in the reserves which is contradictory and against the Unifrm Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)..They call that consorting with enemy....

Captn

Thursday, September 16 2004 @ 07:49 AM CDT
Contributed by: Admin
Views: 373
Subject: Kerry's Discharge

Subject: Kerry's Discharge
If you're as sick of this issue as I, then I apologize at the outset. But, it doesn't get any better. This was in my morning e-mail.

"Unlike McCain, Bush, and Gore, while Kerry has adamantly refused to authorize the release of his military records. Most think it's because of his phony battle medals. I think the real reason is below. He was not granted an Honorable Discharge until March 2001, almost 30 years after his ostensible service term had ended! This is very much out of the ordinary, and highly suspect.

There are 5 classes of Discharge: Honorable, General, Other Than Honorable, Bad Conduct, and Dishonorable. My guess is that he was Discharged in the '70s, but not Honorably. He appealed this sometime while Clinton was doing trouser-tricks in the Oval Office. Political pressure was applied, and the Honorable Discharge was then granted. His file is probably rife with reports of this, submissions and hearings on the appeal, reports of his "giving aid and comfort" to the enemy, along with protests that were filed with respect to his alleged valor under fire.

This will blow up in his face before October 15th.
================================================== =============

On 18 Feb. 1966 John Kerry signed a 6 year enlistment contract with the Navy (plus a 6-month extension during wartime).

On 18 Feb. 1966 John Kerry also signed an Officer Candidate contract for 6 years -- 5 years of ACTIVE duty & ACTIVE Naval Reserves, and 1 year of inactive standby reserves (See items #4 & #5).

Because John Kerry was discharged from TOTAL ACTIVE DUTY of only 3 years and 18 days on 3 Jan. 1970, he was then required to attend 48 drills per year, and not more than 17 days active duty for training.

Kerry was also subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Additionally, Kerry, as a commissioned officer, was prohibited from making adverse statements against his chain of command or statements
against his country, especially during time of war. It is also interesting to note that Kerry did not obtain an honorable discharge until Mar. 12, 2001 even though his service obligation should have ended July 1, 1972.

Lt. John Kerry's letter of 21 Nov. 1969 asking for an early release from active US Navy duty falsely states "My current regular period of obligated service would be completed in December of this year."

On Jan. 3, 1970 Lt. John Kerry was transferred to the Naval Reserve Manpower Center in Bainridge, Maryland.

Where are Kerry's Performance Records for 2 years of obligated Ready Reserve, the 48 drills per year required and his 17 days of active duty per year training while Kerry was in the Ready Reserves? Have these records been released?

Has anyone ever talked to Kerry's Commanding Officer at the Naval Reserve Center where Kerry drilled?

On 1 July 1972 Lt. John Kerry was transferred to Standby Reserve -Inactive.
On 16 February 1978 Lt. John Kerry was discharged from US Naval Reserve.

Below are some of the crimes Lt. Kerry USNR committed as a Ready Reservist, while he was acting as a leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War:

1. Lt. Kerry attended many rallies where the Vietcong flag was displayed while our flag was desecrated, defiled, and mocked, thereby giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

2. Lt. Kerry was involved in a meeting that voted on assassinating members of the US Senate.

3. Lt. Kerry lied under oath against fellow soldiers before the US Senate about crimes committed in Vietnam.

4. Lt. Kerry professed to being a war criminal on national television, and condemned the military and the USA.

5. Lt. Kerry met with NVA and Vietcong communist leaders in Paris, in direct violation of the UCMJ and the U.S. Constitution.

Lt. Kerry by his own words & actions violated the UCMJ and the U.S Code while serving as a Navy officer. Lt. Kerry stands in violation of Article 3, Section 3 of the U.S. Constitution. Lt. Kerry's 1970
meeting with NVA Communists in Paris is in direct violation of the UCMJ's Article 104 part 904, and U.S. Code 18 U.S.C. 953. That meeting, and Kerry's subsequent support of the communists while leading mass protests against our military in the year that followed, also place him in direct violation of our Constitution! 's Article 3, Section 3, which defines treason as "giving aid and comfort" to the enemy in time of warfare.

The Constitution's Fourteenth Amendment, Section 3, states, "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President ... having previously taken an oath to support the Constitution of the United States, [who has] engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof."

A. L. "Steve" Nash, MAC Ret, UDT/SEAL SEAL Authentication Team -Director AuthentiSEAL Phone 707 438 0120 "The only service where all investigators are US Navy SEALs"


http://www.combatveteransforbush.com...04091607491534

raid517

Tchh... the claims just get madder and more trivial. So what if Kerry's record wwas or wasn't so hot. Bush's wasn't exactly spectacular either. He served his time in an elite unit for the sons of the rich and idolant with a virtual gurantee of never seeing enemy action. Maybe he did or didn't serve his full term, maybe he pulled a few strings and got out early. You don't shout much about any of that do you?

Whoopteedo. Rich people sometimes have friends in high places.

Let's just drop it and focus on the issues already.

GJ

flaherrc

In my opinion, this is an issue. If acts Lt. Kerry did were treasonous, do you really want him to be commander in chief?

raid517

I doubt he did anything very treasonus - it's just you guys out on some rabid dog attack now - none of it needs to make any sense any more or have any direct proof attached to it. Just being able to say this stuff is all the proof you guys need.

At the end of the day if anything Kerry has the slightly better military record - at least he was in vietnam. Bush was just in some exclusive champaign flyboys club having the best time knowing that others had opted to go and die in his name.

You want to look at some of the names that were in Bush's regiment. There was no danger that any of them would EVER be put in harms way.

True or not - and so far we only have the word of a few rabid republicans who have a predetermined agenda for wanting it to be true, the worst Krery did was talk up his record.

But like Bush's long and loyal service (or not at the case may be) I have yet to see any conclusive evidence either way.

Now given that both of them might or might not have had an ideal past (Bush was after all a drinker, took drugs and an alleged wife beater). What makes him such star material for President? Let's put past mistakes behind us and move on.

There is no suggestion by anyone but a few fantatical extremists that Kerry was in any sense a 'trator'.

It's just getting stupid and very very old now.

GJ

Guidoo

*****edit for brevity************

Kerry received an "Honorable Discharge" from the Naval reserve in 1978..long before Clinton was elected in '92 . Discharge 2/16/78

Captn

John F Kerry was still in the Navy when he met with the enemy in Paris, This is treason. VVAW that he was the leader of also plotted to kill 3 US senators that supported the vietnam war. Not to mention the atrocities he admits to commiting in Vietnam. This guy is as Un-American as they come!

raid517

No, what is really the truth is that you are just some freaking, rabid fantaic who will believe any old garbage you read, based on some predefined agenda you have.

With a record like that he wouldn't even be allowed to stand for president - he would be in jail - or would have served time in jail - which means again he couldn't stand.

Conclusion, there is no proof of any of this - because if there was he would have been arrested a long time ago.

GJ

Captn

There are FBI documents !!!!!!!!! Im not a Bush supporter & Kerry has been arested before for protesting. Bush is way to liberal for me, But Im not voting for a freak like Kerry.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewSpecialRe...20040604a.html

FBI Files Show Kerry Met With Communists More Than Once
By Marc Morano
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
June 04, 2004

(CNSNews.com) - Newly released FBI files reveal that presumed Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry attended a second meeting with North Vietnamese communists in Paris in the early 1970s. Kerry has previously admitted to meeting only once with the North Vietnamese delegations in 1970.

According to the FBI files, Kerry met with representatives from the North Vietnamese government in Paris in 1971 in an effort to secure the release of captured American prisoners of war. Kerry has previously acknowledged meeting "both delegations" of Vietnamese communists in Paris in 1970, but has said nothing of the 1971 meeting.

Researcher and author Jerry Corsi, who began studying the anti-war movement in the early 1970s, believes Kerry is hiding key aspects about his anti-war past from the public as he seeks the presidency.

"Kerry has admitted to one meeting with Madam Binh. Now we have reason to believe there was a second [meeting], so let's press them to admit the second [meeting]," Corsi told CNSNews.com.

"Kerry needs to explain to the American people why he directly went into negotiations with communists," Corsi added. Corsi has written an essay on Kerry's dealings with the Vietemese communists on the Internet site, WinterSoldier.com.

According to Gerald Nicosia, a Kerry supporter and the author of the book Home to War: A History of the Vietnam Veterans' Movement, Kerry's second visit to Paris to meet with emissaries of the North Vietnamese communist government is documented in redacted FBI files from the era.

"The [FBI] files record that Kerry made a second trip to Paris that summer (1971) to learn how the North Vietnamese might release prisoners," Nicosia wrote in an essay in the Los Angeles Times on May 23.

"After deciding not to run [for Congress] in 1970, he and his new wife, Julia Thorne, traveled to France in May to meet Madame Nguyen Thi Binh and other Viet Cong and Communist Vietnamese representatives to the Paris peace talks, a trip he now calls a 'fact-finding mission,"' Nicosia wrote.

Nicosia noted that, "Kerry had tried to distinguish between his own trips to meet with the Vietnamese in Paris, which he considered necessary to fight through the lies of his own government, and actual negotiations with the enemy, which Kerry knew were illegal."

Kerry told the New York Times on April 24 that his first meeting with the Vietnamese communists in 1970 was "not a big deal."

''People were dropping in (at the Paris Peace Talks). It was a regular sort of deal," Kerry explained to the New York Times .

But Corsi believes it was a very big deal.

"You had (Former Nixon aide) Henry Kissinger there (in Paris) trying to negotiate formally with the Paris peace delegation and then these guys (from Vietnam Veterans Against the War) are off on their own side show, establishing back channels to the Vietnamese communists; all of this is against the law," Corsi said, referring to U.S. code 18 U.S.C. 953, which declares it illegal for a U.S. citizen to go abroad and negotiate with a foreign power.

"Exactly who was Kerry ... to have arranged these trips? He had to be in discussion with some link with the communist party of Vietnam in order to establish these trips and meetings," Corsi explained.

Kerry also may have had plans to go to South Vietnam in 1971, according to a June 16, 1971 article in the communist Daily World newspaper.

"Former Navy Lt. John Kerry is planning a three-week trip to South Vietnam in July to report on 'what is really happening' to the GI's there, he told newsmen here," read the article, written by the Daily World's Ted Pearson. Kerry was attending an event in Chicago with Jesse Jackson, who at the time was head of the organization, Operation Bread Basket.

It is unclear whether Kerry ever made the trip to South Vietnam in 1971 and Kerry's campaign did not return several phone calls seeking comment for this article.

Nicosia has criticized Kerry in the past for not being more open about his anti-war past.

"I am in kind of an awkward position here. I am a Kerry supporter and I certainly don't want to do anything that hurts him. On the other hand, my number one allegiance is to truth. So I am going to go with where the facts are, and John is going to have to deal with that," Nicosia told CNSNews.com back in March when the contents of the FBI files became public and caused Kerry to revise his past statements on a series of issues dealing with his past.

"I am having some problems with the things he is saying right now, which are not matching up with accuracy," Nicosia said in March.

"I think [Kerry] may be worried or the people around him may be worried that his association with VVAW (Vietnam Veterans Against the War) is a very negative thing and they want John to back away from it," he added.

Kerry's anti-war activism and his meetings with the communists had a big impact, according to Corsi.

"Vietnamese communists would not have won the war without John Kerry. They were cultivating his protest activity with the VVAW," Corsi said.

Corsi said the Vietnamese communists have shown their gratitude to Kerry by displaying a photo of him at Ho Chi Minh City's Protestors Hall of the War Remnants Museum. The photo of fellow anti-war activist and actress Jane Fonda also appears in the Women's Museum in Saigon.

"As soon as [Kerry] came onto the seen, [the Vietnamese communists] latched on to him like bees on to honey. [The communists] said 'This is a guy who tells our story, it will undermine the sympathy for the war in America,'" Corsi added.

raid517

I'll leave this for you guys to deal with. I'm too tired to deal with stupidness like right now.

If you think Bush is a liberal, (and way too liberal at that) that about says it all.

GJ

digerati

Nooo! Don't leave! Sure some people here have their ideological views and political understandings screwed up but we still love you!!

Captn

Just do your homework & you'll see the facts unfold before your eyes. Stupidness?????? The fact is Kerry was the leader of the VVAW and met with the Vietcong while still in the Navy & plotted to kill 3 US Senators that supported the Vietnam war. These are FBI facts. Kerry will not sign Navy form 180 releasing all of his military records for a reason ! Kerry claims hes going to protect the American people from terrorists, Well one only has to look at his senate record & can easily come to the conclusion that he is truly a liar. Thats why Kerry wont talk about his time is the US senate, Because he knows he doesnt have a chance if America looks at his record.

raid517

Dude man I'd miss you too if I did ever leave for good. So shut the f*ck up, already. Right now I have my family convinced I'm researching a book - which may not be far off the truth. But how many times have I done this before? I wish I could film some of these guys, you know... I think sometimes it would make interesting viewing.

But I am tiered and not too well atm, so if this guy want's the stage, let him have it. I can't do these long arguments with these kooks and extremists any more.

It's been a fun and interesting two years though - and I'll still pop back if I have something significant I feel I want to say.

I hope you are all well.

GJ