WWII and the Holocaust

Nacht

Interesting stance the both of you take...I understand exactly what Tyrion is saying...after all, there were 3 million poles killed as someone pointed out...half the number of all the jews. These people were put in camps and underwent the same maltreatment of the jews...yet they were not jewish. Sometimes it does seem like they do not get the respect they deserve, and are eclipsed by people's idea that the Jews were the only people to receive such treatment. But still, the systematic hunt and execution of one ethnic group of people, rather than a nationality. It was because this stretched beyond state borders, and affected them everywhere, not just in one area.

Spader

No they were not put in camps systematically like the Jews.

They were however treated extremely bad by the Nazis ..just as the Russian who lost 40 million people as a consequense of the war and defeated Hitler at Stalingrad which was the direct reason that he lost the war.




Spader

Falstaff

extremely bad is of course an understatement

Nacht

Jews were not the only ones in those camps...or so I have been told.

Falstaff

sure, anyone that was considered racially defective was interned, and dissadents too.

Spader

In Auschwitz in Poland 1 million people were killed.

9 out of ten were Jews.

Spader

Nacht

umm....exactly my point...some of them were interned like the jews.

Dom

I can understand trying to get recognition for the non-Jews that were killed but, the whole point seems flawed. Jews died and Christians died. Jews were singled out, others died in war. What does is matter what religion they were or how they were killed? Human is human, despit race, color or creed. The arguement should be that many people died in this war, not that they where Jews, non-Jews, Russians or Poles.

raid517

But the point being made is why the Jews are remembered historically as having suffered above all others.


You appear to have missed that - or you have stepped into the misguided camp where counting numbers is all that matters.

That is not the issue that was raised.

GJ

Spader

The point is that the industrial killing performed almost exclusively on Jews performed by the Nazis was exceptional and that this specific organised butchering was exceptional....even for WW2.

Why?

Because it was planned.There was an actual plan to eliminate Jews as an ethnic group.

Spader

SaberZ

Hitler IMO did think he was doing "good." You have to remember that depending on who is interpreting an idea it can be either good or bad. We all believe it was bad, he believed it was good. Why he systematically decided to butcher the Jews, Polish, Christians ect isn't 100% sure. He felt he had to preserve the Arian race? Part of it. Reading Mein Kampf, and other books it seemed he disliked them. He felt something among them. I for one don't have a problem with any race, or kreed, but I know many of you could relate to getting a bad vibe from someone. He was a sick man, and his views distorted(by himself). There is plenty of information on supposed theories, or reasons as to why he did what he did.

There were newspapers supported by Henry Ford about the Jewish, and a few other books about the "chosen people". Perhaps Hitler was one of those that truly believed what others did at the time about "evil". I don't know all the facts on the Ford Articles and other sources about the Zionist movements, but maybe something of the like got to him. We were just as bad with the Indians(USA), people around the world have participated in similiar events like the Holocaust. Perhaps man is truly inherintly "evil" rather than inherintly "good" and even today we see forms of "evil" such as whats occuring in the Middle East, or how events occur just because of opinion. This is quite the touchy subject since I do know for a fact that as long as there is opinion, there will always be arguments to follow

raid517

That's it. I'm out of this one. This whole thing is just getting silly.

GJ

dj_stick

how is it getting silly? SaberZ raised a very valid point

raid517

The 'nice guy who was just slightly misguided argument' when used in relation to Hitler, isn't just dumb - it's potentially sick.

GJ

JavaFox

I think you really ought to step back for a second and think about what you posted. Raid's frustration here comes from the sheer ammorality of your post.

You either believe that there is such a thing as "evil" or you do not. Most rational people would say that there is such a thing. Evil is evident all around us -- it's evident in the horrors of Africa; it's evident in the abuses and torture of Abu Gharib (both before and during US occupation, sadly); it's evident in the rapists, molesters, killers, and terrorists of the world. There is evil. And, like I said, you either believe in it or you do not. If you don't believe in it, then humans are nothing more than animals. All the laws we've erected, all the treates on human rights we've signed, all the dictators we've fought -- all of that means nothing. You shouldn't care about learning them, enforcing them, or respecting them.

If you DO believe in evil --if you believe that there is right and there is wrong-- then the word must have some meaning, some definition. It cannot be based merely on the perception of the person.

Hitler and John Paul II do not have equal weight in saying what is and what isn't evil. If you suggest that evil is in the eye of the beholder, what you are saying is that you do not truly believe in evil. If evil can't be defined, then it can't exist. So, like I said in an earlier post, if you are going to take Hitler's word that what he did wasn't "evil" --if you are going to justify it or explain it away-- then the word "evil" truly has no meaning. It is a worthless term.

If you do believe there is such a thing as evil that should be condemned, then Hitler's own perception is meaningless. We cannot consider evil a real thing while we accept two opposite opinions on what it is. Either killing millions is evil or there's no such thing as evil. Intentions don't matter with those kinds of consequences.

raid517

Well that pretty much sums it up for me. I think in order for life to be worth living, there has to be a recognition of what is fundamentally good and fundamentally evil. Hitler's perception of himself is hardly a relevant issue here. Hitler was an egotistical maniac. He undoubtedly believed he was engaged in a divine mission, that he had been touched by destiny to bring about a fundamental change on this earth. Does that make what he did in any sense 'understandable?' No! Why? Because what we are pondering on is the twisted self affirming fantasies of of a person who undoubtedly had a very sick and evil mind.

By saying that Hitler did not view himself as evil, it's almost as though you are saying 'lets' try and understand the guy!' But that is empty sentimentally - that harps back to the idea that all evil people can be cured of their evil if we could only learn to be a little more tolerant of them. We tried tolerance - or in this case appeasement - and he killed millions. What therefore is there to understand or empathize with?

So the correct response when someone says Hitler didn't think of himself as evil is , 'so?' And this is exactly because by looking at his actions it is clear to see that beyond all reasonable measure he undoubtedly WAS evil.

Many psychopaths may not 'view themselves as evil' - but in reality that hardly makes them any more cuddly - or any less evil.

There is only one definition you need to make - and that is evil or not. There may be shades in between these extremes - but a person's personal view of themselves should not perhaps be one of them.

We define evil by a set of standards that we can all adhere to - because without these there is nothing we can rightfully describe as good and evil - and the world itself would be cast into chaos.

GJ

SaberZ

Whats all the fuss about? Hitler was wrong, maybe you need to read my post more carefully. Nobody will know what ran through his mind at the time, perhaps in his own thought, his own mind he thought what he was doing was "good". Hell he could of known it was wrong, don't become irrate at it, remember its opinion, and if you don't like it, then dont read it all. Don't get a rise from it, jeez.

raid517

Hmm... I think that's what you call a window on another perspective. Unfortunately it appears to be a very narrow window - and a very limited perspective.

Who cares if what a lunatic thought what he was doing was good - clearly that is simply a part of his lunatic outlook. If anything it only makes him even more monstrous and despicable.

Anyway I increasingly get the idea that such notions are somewhat wasted in this instance - so what the hey.

GJ

The_Neon_Cowboy

If you had dark hair dark eyes you were labeled a jew, and subject to extra persiction...