9/11 Final report.

raid517

So? It wasn't too long after he was elected that he dispensed with all of the foundations of German democracy.

Hitler was/is the accepted definition of what it means to be a dictator.

What's your point? More specifically do you even have one, or are you just typing this stuff on your keyboard for the sake of something to say?

GJ

pr0digal jenius

naw....that isn't my job but i still say you can hardly call killing someone the best ethical/moral way to do something

PoopyTheJ

Well you continue to voice your support for Hitler and for other murderous dictators and see how much support you get. Even in the case of Saddam, I doubt anyone was all that enamored with his methods - most simply were deeply suspicious of American motives - but not to the extent of the massive conspiracy theories that you propose.

-I never supported Hitler in the least actually. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, sometimes I have trouble speaking good to know I've got you to take care of that for me.

Hitler wasn't mildly depressed - he was a psychopathic paranoid butcher - I know Prozac has been prescribed for many things - but using it to combat tyranny is pretty new on me.

-An example he probably needed more potent drugs, but if things were different then, things could have been different. IE- we treat sex offenders in certain circumstances with drugs this limits their compulsive desires.

I think it is utter meaningless psychobabble to say that 'maybe if people had just taken the time to talk to Hitler, perhaps he wouldn't have acted as he did.' Just how I wonder do you suppose we do that? Should we have bombed Hitler with reassuring messages about the benefits of relaxation and positive association?

-Whew! Thanks for telling me what words are coming out of my mouth again! I didn't think I said anything of the sort, obviously though I've got you to think and speak for me so everything is A-OK!

As for pre-emptively removing people on the basis of what they might do, Hitlers murderous career started long before the war stated (sometime around 1932 I believe) as did the Jewish concentration camps. There was already a lot of discussion in Western Europe and America about this, particularly coming from those who had escaped - so the extent of Hitler's blood lust was already pretty apparent.

- CONCENTRATION CAMPS, 1933-1939
The term concentration camp refers to a camp in which people are detained or confined, usually under harsh conditions and without regard to legal norms of arrest and imprisonment. Concentration camps (Konzentrationslager; KL or KZ) were an integral feature of the Nazi regime between 1933 and 1945.

The first concentration camps in Germany were established soon after Hitler's appointment as chancellor in January 1933. The SA (Sturmabteilung; Storm Troopers) and the police organized concentration camps beginning in February 1933. Set up by local authorities on an ad hoc basis to handle the masses of people arrested as alleged political opponents of the regime, camps existed throughout Germany. For example, camps were located in Oranienburg, north of Berlin; Esterwegen, near Hamburg; Dachau, northwest of Munich; and Lichtenburg, in Saxony. Columbia Haus in Berlin held certain prisoners under investigation by the Gestapo (the German secret state police) and operated until 1936. Gradually, the Nazis disbanded most of these early camps and replaced them with centrally organized concentration camps under the exclusive jurisdiction of the SS (Schutzstaffel; the elite guard of the Nazi state).

from http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php...uleId=10005263

But like I said, no one is talking about gazing at crystal balls and trying to predict what people will do.
- http://www.essex.police.uk/pages/about/a_pepys4.htm
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/fe...terr-f10.shtml

From the second Patriot Act SECTION 301 and 306 (Terrorist Identification Database) set up a national database of “suspected terrorists” and radically expand the database to include anyone associated with suspected terrorist groups and anyone involved in crimes or having supported any group designated as “terrorist.” These sections also set up a national DNA database for anyone on probation or who has been on probation for any crime, and orders State governments to collect the DNA for the Federal government.

War may not always be the first answer we should reach for - but sometimes it remains the only possible recourse we have.

http://www.opednews.com/kelly_why_does_war.htm It's certainly the most profitable!

raid517

Pah... none of that has anything to do with anything I said. If you think you have found a supporter of the Patriot act here, you're barking up completely the wrong tree.

My support is reserved exclusively for punishing those who can be shown to have indulged in acts of mass murder and genocide. As I said, even those who objected to the war in Iraq are unlikely to feel any genuine kind of sympathy for Saddam Husein. It seems clear to me that you are misinterpreting a suspicion of American motives - with a willingness to side with tyranny and dictatorship. That is not what most people objected to.

If you want to go on saying that you think punishing dictators is a bad idea, or saying that we should be understanding towards them - or even sympathetic towards them - or if you wish to continue in associating those aspirations I expressed with the negative aspects of right wing American republicanism - with which I hold no empathy whatsoever - then feel free, but be aware it has nothing to do with anything I believe in or that I feel is right.

And if this isn't what you are saying, just what the hell are you saying? That we should mail dictators psychotropic medication in the post?

Erm... What? What kind of sensible point is that to make? That's not even stupid - it's just plumb bizarre.

We have already seen your love for conspiracy theories - and I noted then how it was unlikely that anything would dissuade you from this path. If one of those conspiracies was disproved, you would more and likely go off and find some other equally outrageous and outlandish things to believe in.

Clearly, I was correct as there has been no change in your outlook at all.

GJ

PoopyTheJ

Wow, amazing I say one thing and you put words in my mouth that have nothing to do with what I said. I think you may perhaps want to re-read my post above and see what I was talking about. I have no intention of coddling Dictators or mass murderers. You said before the war if Hitler could have been disposed of, well that would be preemptively killing someone for what they might do. That's my argument, unless of course you are professing to predict the future now? As far as not changing my mind, well give me actual proof to change my mind and we'll talk, don't just tell me I'm mentally unstable.

raid517

So why don't you just tell me... Do you think dictators who can be shown to be guilty of acts of mass murder and genocide should be punished? Or do you think they should be let of Scot free to continue butchering and killing as they please?

It's a simple enough question.

If it's the former then finally, at last we agree. If however it's the latter, then I have no empathy for you whatsoever.

Maybe you have some oddball alternate solution such as, I don't know, telepathically transmitting feelings of wellbeing and positive karma to these guys - but beyond this I don't get what, if any point you are trying to make?

I think you ought to read back over some of my postings here before you start to accuse me of supporting any of the right wing ideologies that you appear to dislike so much.

I still however refuse to be drawn into discussions about 'international conspiracies', or black ops, or plots by Western governments to kill their own people.

It is not something that remotely interests me.

GJ

Roadee

How's it going in here? Anything interesting going on?

raid517

Not really, lol...

Just some nonsense about nothing much.

GJ

Chaos

I was not aware that people here had such strong views an things, now i know why i only glance here from time to time.

I will refrain from comment so i don't get my ass flamed all over this thread

PoopyTheJ

Yes Mass murderers should be put out of their and our misery, Pol Pot, Saddam, Stalin, Hitler, Noriega, Pinochet,Colonel Hugo Banzer, General Jorge Rafael Videla, Mohammed Zia Ul-haq, General Suharto, Sir Hassanal Bolkiah, Hussan II, Mobutu Sese Seko.

raid517

Now now. We're talking about people who have actually done things. No one (except it seems you) is advocating pre-emptive war/assasination.

For some of us evidence remains a vital motivation for us to act.

GJ

PoopyTheJ

ahhh, well Prince phillip hardly seems the knight in shining armor and wouldn't you say supporting dictators to allow them their murderous ways is in some ways just as bad? EDIT agreed though I'll take him off my list

kp59583

But not the majority.

On election day September 14, 1930, the Nazis received 6,371,000 votes, over eighteen percent of the total, and were thus entitled to 107 seats in the German Reichstag. It was a stunning victory for Hitler. Overnight, the Nazi party went from the smallest to the second largest party in Germany.

They had no intention of cooperating with the democratic government, knowing it was to their advantage to let things get worse in Germany, thus increasing the appeal of Hitler to an ever more miserable people

Nazi storm troopers dressed in civilian clothes celebrated their electoral victory by smashing in the windows of Jewish shops, restaurants and department stores, an indication of things to come.

Now, for the floundering German democracy, the clock was ticking and time was on Hitler's side.

In the presidential election held on March 13, 1932, Hitler got over eleven million votes (11,339,446) or 30% of the total. Hindenburg got 18,651,497 votes or 49%.

On a dark, rainy Sunday, April 10, 1932, the people voted. They gave Hitler 13,418,547 or 36%, an increase of two million, and Hindenburg 19,359,983 or 53%, an increase of under a million.

The 85-year-old gentleman was elected by an absolute majority to another seven year term. But no one was at ease. Hitler and the Nazis had shown massive popularity.


If you want to, read the whole thing; go to http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar...ler/index.html