Some facts on Leftists and Racism

Falstaff

I mentioned recently about the influence of drugs on the behaviour of Hitler and Kennedy, both with tremendous cult following today, although not comparing them at all really they were just people, Hitler was maniacal so he subverted or blended several ideologies to accomplish one goal and that was the destruction of the jews, and yet he failed terribly. We entered into a long protracted war in Vietnam to unify it, that goal was unrealistic and the French had already failed (no surprise) But Kennedy really believed that we could force democracy on the Vietnamese and irradicate the growing communist threat. Hitler failed because he was more than just brutal, he was efficient and he was IMO insane and influenced by drugs. I use the Kennedy analogy to illustrate that even with the best intentions and all the bombs you can drop on someone, the ideology didnt stick. I believe Hitler underestimated Europeans and Americans thinking we all wanted to get rid of jews, and Kennedy underestimated the Vietnamese as well. No matter what we say History is the harshest critic, and I hope that my comparisons did not offend anyone, I generalize because I dont want to get mired in all the dogma. Ambitiouis leaders often underestimate their own nations and are not prepared to deal with the possible dramatic changes in success when them embark to change the ideology of any country, that includes IRAQ. I am not opposed to socialism or a religous government, the people will decide, with guns,rockets and bombs, no matter how much we try to influence the mind of the common IRAQI person, they will embrace what they feel is appropriate for now. Westerners are all infidels and not worthy of more than consideration for economic reasons to many arab nations. We cannot force our ideology and our democracy on anyone, and our heavy handed politics and our weapons and our bombs will not do it. I forsee IRAQ imploding again and then rebuilding. It is only a matter of time.

raid517

Well I don't know where you are getting the drugs connection with Hitler and Kennedy - and even though you say you are not, by mentioning them in the same sentence and in the same context you are inviting comparisons. The drugs thing for Hitler - and come to think of it Kennedy too - is pretty new on me. Hitler was a rabid anti-alcoholic, a vegetarian and a Puritan - he is known to have found drinking and drug taking too presumably (since it wasn't the issue then it was today) to be a weakening influence on body and mind - so if you are now saying he is a drug addict - I think historically that is something we should look at the evidence for.

Hitler didn't need drugs to do the many evil things he did - he had something that was far more powerful than any drug - and that was a political ideology. Drug crazed hippies actually did very little to change the world - if anything they only proved that any alternative culture that promotes drugs as an exclusive path to intellectual freedom is destined to fail - because like all mind altering substances all drugs do is tell us lies - or tell us things about ourselves it is often better not to know.

However there have been many instances where a specific political ideology has changed the world and has influenced world events. I think it is possibly a truism to say that any man with a heart felt ideology and a willingness to pursue it, is potentially a million times more deadly than any drug could ever hope to be.

As for Iraq - I think what's most clear is that sooner or later Iraq will become whatever Iraq chooses to be - whether it is something we admire or not.

We might want things to work out differently - but ultimately the cost may be too great for us to have any real influence over anything.

If the Iraqis demand socialism - which seems almost inevitable given the natural resources they have - we ultimately may have very little say in it.

GJ

JoyStick

" Capitalism and Equality by Dr. William Pierce:"

Is where that article came from....


If you can take the anti-semitism with a grain of salt, the reason why communism failed is clearly shown.

I am no "whacked out" person analyzing the human spectrum, I just find things that prove their point interesting, whatever side of the fence they're on.


Oh, and about Bluelight - I said I didn't like him to see if he would flame me, like most bleeding hearted libbies do, but he didn't, so I like him... Dispite any disagreements we may have in future debates.

Falstaff

I guess I was really pointing out that I think drugs or certain drugs taken for the spirit or the body or pain may have influenced Kennedy or Hitler to levels of ideology that were to put it bluntly.....foolish.

JoyStick

This is all news to me, Jeff.. I didn't know either one were dopers..

Where'd you learn that? I'd be interested in learning the same thing.

raid517

Well I don't take the anti-semitism with a pinch of salt - and I don't accept that the 'reasons why communism failed are clearly shown there.'

That guy argues that the reason Communism failed was because it is an ideology of the inferior races - that it failed because it was always destined to fail as by it's nature it allowed the inferior elements of society to believe that they could play an equal role to their intellectual and racial superiors.

That is classical fascist thinking - thinking that has been widely discredited and proved to be both misguided and destructive - exactly because it seeks to divide people along social and racial lines - whether they are Jewish, socialist, rich, poor or whatever...

Communism failed because it required the total cooperation of all elements of society to achieve a single common goal, but the problem is that there are far too many selfish elements in society to allow this to happen. Not everyone is willing to share the fruits of their efforts with everyone else. Those kids in the playground who refused to share their candy undoubtedly grew up to form the basis of the ideology we call Conservatism. 'Why should we share, when others don't do what's required to get their own candy?' Or to further the analogy, 'why should we share our taxes with others less fortunate than us - when really we would prefer to keep it all for ourselves?'

Communism failed because it requires utter cooperation and utter selflessness - a willingness to share and give of everything you are capable of giving and for everyone to work as hard as everyone else.

It is therefore the forces of Conservatism and of selfishness that will clearly always cause communism to fail (given that there has not yet been a truly communist regime) because those that have access to the most resources will always show over time an increasing reluctance to share with those who have not - and those who do not have access to as many of these resources will not be inspired to work as equally hard as everyone else - because it will quickly become clear that they will never gain the equal share of the available resources that Communism promises.

It really is that simple. It doesn't need some neo-fascist examination of the role of race - or of social origin - for us to understand why Communism would never work. Communism will never work because the forces of conservatism would never allow it to.

Why do you even need another explanation?

Anyway I'm starting to look at you in a new light. You strike me as possibly a genuine neo-fascist. Many of those links you posted are much more overtly fascist/openly racist than even ZD has posted in the past.

I have to state now therefore that if you are openly advocating any of these views - or inferring that you support them - I will not expend any more of my time on you.

Fascism is as dead an ideology as is Communism - so I'm not about to waste my time debating them - or lending any validity to either of them.

Whatever side of the fence you may be on, it is certainly not one that I find any real validity in. Those views are something that belong to history - and they should be buried with all of the people who died as a result of them.

GJ

raid517

Yeah... there is no evidence that I'm aware of that Hitler was a drug addict. If anything he was a rabbid t' totaler. I don't even think he drank coffee - as far as I know it was just water...

His deputy Hermann Goering however was a kind of drug adddict - or at least he was famously addicted to Paracetamol and Codine. But he managed to hide this very well for most of the war years - and only really came to tems with it during the Nuremberg Trials.

I'm not sure what evidence exists for Kenedy either. Non as far as I'm aware - although he has been accused of being a sex addict.

Possibly not quite the same thing...

GJ

JoyStick

Humm... Don't shine any new lights on me, I'm just examining the situation from multiple angles.

It's what I do. I research things, and I provide from various different sources.

That guy, Pierce, explained in his own ways why communism failed.

Reagan explained why communism would never work in his own words, and Hitler explained them in his own words, etc etc.

It's just interesting to look at, and compare similarities...

raid517

Well although I still disagree with him, I would lean much more towards Regan than this guy.

I don't think his opinions have any validity at all.

GJ

bluelight

Goring was a morphinist.He took on to the habit after having had treatment at hospital...and kept it.



Bluelight

bluelight

Well...rule nr 1.Dont believe ANYTHING .

Never...ever ..adapt the truths of someone else as your own.Find the truth yourself.

Thats all you ever need.

Bluelight

raid517

Yeah Codine is an opiate mate. I think if you look it up you will find that is what he was addicted to.

But if Hitler had found out he would prabably have had him shot.

GJ

malkor

It is quite documented that Hitler was taking quite a few drugs prescribed by his personal doctor Theo Morel. Two of the most concise sources of this information are from the books by Leonard L. Heston . Amphetamines, downers and some say a homebrew of Morel's containing hemlock were all among the drugs Hitler was taking.

So, yes, in a sense he was a doper, but he believed the medication to be provided by a trusted doctor. One, however, whom nobody who knew Hitler, trusted.


Hitler's ideology was quite set well before he began his descent into drugs, Mein Kampf being written years before.

raid517

I would still be mildly interested to know what drugs in particular we are referring to here. I don't think Hitler's life is a story of a decent into drugs - so much as a decent into evil. All long term drugs use is capable of is inspiring a sense of affirmation of the pointlessness and futility of life - so my own feeling is that if Hitler did eventually turn to drugs of some kind - this may only have signaled the beginning of his downfall - or at least it may have in some way served to hasten it.

But I'm sure you are right in that if he did take any drugs he believed them to be legitimate. You have to appreciate that many people today regularly take 'prescription drugs' - and if we look back at the prescription drugs that were available in the 30's and 40's many of us might be led to raise an eyebrow (for example Heroin and Cocaine were both legal and regularly prescribed). Many questionable substances were freely available - but generally this was simply because little research had then been conducted regarding their harmful effects.

Thus what we regard as a hard drug now, may have seemed like a valid and popular treatment in the 1930's. There would certainly be a lot less stigma associated with the use of these substances than there is now. Addiction itself was not yet a well understood process.

But anyway I agree that it seems clear from the evidence that many of Hitler's ideas were formed well before his '39 to '45 world tour....

Most of his ideas were formulated even before Mien Kampf (probably during his experiences in the first World war) and were first put into action in the Munich Putsch in 1923, when Hitler made his first abortive attempt to overthrow the then democratically elected German government.

Well anyway, take a look at this for a nice history of Adolf Hitler - this was the sort of stuff I learned about him as a kid - and it gives some very nice background information on how he came to believe the things he did - and how he was able to gain so much power and influence in Germany and to eventually change history in the way he did. It should also serve to dispel even further the myth of Hitler's affection for socialism. This is not a leftist conspiracy to discredit the right - these are documented and provable historical facts. Moreover these are exactly the same facts that are taught is schools and Universities across Europe, America - and the rest of the free world. You have an awful lot of history to change and an awful lot of dead people to account for before you can even begin to imagine talking about Hitler from a left wing perspective.

As I said, Hitler's life is not so much a story of a decent into drug addiction - as it is a demonstration of a decent into the purest forms of evil.

Drugs don't make people evil - they don't do anything very useful - it is people who make themselves evil - no matter what motivations they might try to use to justify their actions.

GJ

malkor

Agreed. "Descent into drug use" may be too strong. While for a time he was heavily medicated, mostly amphetamines (which, as you said, were quite common at the time) I don't feel it played any major role in his decision making.

In fact, other books have been written disputing the claim that he was an "addict", and in fact showing that once he learned of the effects of these drugs, he soon stopped taking them. A revew of one such book by Dr. Fritz Redlich can be found here .

JoyStick

Malkor...

I'm sorry, bud, but I just really have a hard time taking a Non-German's information about a German that lived before him seriously..

I mean, come on.. That's like asking Osama if Ariel Sharron is a nice guy, or asking Dubya if I am a good guy... I mean, how the HELL would they know? Much less, how the HELL could I take someone's biased information about a guy they never met, they never KNEW, and all they have is some documents, or whatever their source was that could so easily be fabricated as "fact".


Nah, not me. I'd need something a little more cold, and hard to believe something that outrageous. I'm with Raid on this one.

I searched a bit, but couldn't find a picture of Leonard, or Renate Heston "Kimbler"

However, I would suspect I wouldn't be surprised if I did see their pictures.


@Blue - Don't worry about me, man.. I appreciate the advice, but I'm about 400 steps ahead of you on that one.

malkor

I don't understand what you mean JoyStick, I'm not disputing Raid in any way. In fact, I'm not really stating much, just posting what some people have written. The only thing I have stated that I believe to be true is that Hitler at one time was taking drugs, whether heavy drugs, prescription drugs, I don't know.

I also believe that they had no effect upon his ideology.

So, what is it you disagree with me about?

Once again, I notice your use of a person's racial background being of vital importance to their credibility.

JoyStick

Something you'll learn in law, and criminology if you ever get into it..

Don't ever listen to the victim about how things went down.



Also, I've been searching quite a bit trying to find drug claims about Hitler, and haven't found any that'd hold any water... Some silly liberals saying Hitler was a pothead, and he invented cocaine, and he shot up draino every day, but no proof to back it up...

So, I'm left with nothing. Nothing saying he did, and nothing saying he didn't that satisfied me factually.


I wasn't saying I disagreed with you, but rather, Leonard L Heston. I don't think his story could fly an inch. Especially not if he wasn't even German to begin with..

Speer is apparently some kind of vet, but it's all a big grey area, and I don't believe a thing he says, either.


I was agreeing with Raid seeing as he doesn't buy into the druggy BS either.

raid517

@JoyStick, you may be with me - but I don't think I'm with you.

Your a bit of an odd one TBH... I don't know what to make of you.

You have a curious ability to make the oddest kind of statements - such as only Germans are fit to judge other Germans...

That is pretty much a corner stone of one of the main tenets of the German Nazi party.

It may indeed be possible that Hitler used some form of drugs - but Malkor has covered my opinion on this too - insomuch as it can't be used as a means of explaining any of Hitler's thinking, his ideology - or any of his subsequent actions.

I don't think there's any hard evidence one way or another for Hitler's drug taking.

It's certainly not one of the more widely documented aspects of his life.

I won't draw any conclusions until I see evidence one way or another. But having read a lot - I have to confess it isn't something I've heard that much about. I don't think anyone really considers it any kind of major aspect of his life.

Anyway what about Kennedy? What evidence is there for his love of hard drugs? Or for any drugs for that matter?

GJ

JoyStick

Nah, Raid, I mean I don't trust this probably AMERICAN bastard as far as I can throw him on the subject of Hitler, who was born, and dead before this guy could even talk.

It would reassure me a bit more that these OUTRAGEOUS claims that Hitler was a constant doper for the accuser to be German, or living in Germany at the period in time where Hitler was alleged to have been popping pills, shooting up, and snorting his fixes...

See? I mean.. You don't go to a library, and ask them how to format a computer.

You don't go to a computer store, and ask them how to sand a wall..

You don't go to a hardware store and ask them how to program a computer, etc etc...

I mean, it's not hard.

If you're looking for the facts, and the truth, you don't go to the person's enemy, you're inquiring about, and ask him for the truth about this guy. Especially not if that guy lived across the seas from the accused.


I mean, honestly...

Assume you were doing an essay on racists..

Who would you go to out of the choices, as being the most credible person?


The religious soccer mom
The Jewish Supremacist
The Psychologist
The Professor
The Head of the American Nazi party
Or, the Historian who's dedicated his life to studying things in this field?

raid517

Na... that's still a bit too... Well, Nazi and whacked out for me, sorry...

We can tell what kind of person Hitler was by looking at the things he did.

That is what history is for.

You don't have to be born in one particular country to have an accurate understanding of history.

That again is elitism and facism.

I don't buy it.

GJ

raid517

Erm... I wouldn't choose any of them, on the basis that they are all 'kin weird... and they don't make a hell of a lot of sense.

What would cause someone to dream this odd bunch up?

GJ

JoyStick

No one said you had to be born in a certain country to have an accurate understanding of history..

But, to say that this person, whom NEVER publicly did drugs, and come off sounding halfass like he knew something...

I would have to hear it from Hitler himself, really...

Hitler would have to tell me himself he shot up drugs on a regular basis.

I don't believe anyone else on that subject.

It's like schoolkids calling people homosexual.

Have they ever seen that person having sex with another person of the same sex?

Has he/she said to them that they were homosexual?

Then how the HELL do you know?

It's not a tough concept, and I trust in it 100%.


If you never saw it, you never heard it, you don't know it.


BTW - This isn't about history.. This is about a tyrant, and his drug addiction. (if there is one)





"raid517
DriverHeaven Senior Member


Registered: Jul 2002
Location:
Posts: 1359
Status: Online


quote:
[i]

I mean, honestly...

Assume you were doing an essay on racists..

Who would you go to out of the choices, as being the most credible person?


The religious soccer mom
The Jewish Supremacist
The Psychologist
The Professor
The Head of the American Nazi party
Or, the Historian who's dedicated his life to studying things in this field? [/b]


Erm... I wouldn't choose any of them, on the basis that they are all 'kin weird... and they don't make a hell of a lot of sense.

What would cause someone to dream this odd bunch up?

GJ"



Ahahah, and this shows that you agree with me.