President above the law?

raid517

What 'attack'? What I said was simple fact. I doubt we agree on anything very much. And that's the way I like things to be.

I think that's been made pretty clear by now.

Sigh... well anyway, I'll stop before you start to think I'm attacking you again.

As JF said, what I was actually doing was defending what I believed America REALLY stood for - whereas you appeared to be advocating its destruction and dismissal.

In order to defend a way of life, there has to be something that is truly worth defending - and clearly this has to be more than just our homes and our jobs and the material comforts we enjoy. It has to be a higher sense of values - a set of guiding principals against which we can measure our own behavior against the behavior of others in this world. It has to be too a set of values that almost all of us can agree to and that we can know instinctively are inherently worth defending.

In any case I will defer to JF on much of this. I couldn't really have said it better myself if I tried.

In truth the only objection I have is that the American military has not been used recently in the way JF described - and if this was the case I personally would advocate a much wider deployment throughout several other countries in this world. Heck if this were the case I would welcome America to invade the entire Mid East if it came to it. It's simply that in this instance I just didn't buy it. I didn't buy that those were the motivations - and unfortunately I still don't buy it today.

Moreover there has been an 'intellectual debate' among the American political right (a contradiction in terms perhaps) over these last 5 years about the validity of torture as a possibly 'legitimate' (again not my choice of terms) method of interrogation. I refer you to my earlier thread on this topic which I started over a year ago - and also to TC's original post at the top of this topic. So there is no doubt that this subject has been discussed and debated at the highest level of government.

The question is whether or not we are prepared to allow it. This is more than just about a small local temporary dispute, this is about our leaders grabbing for more power and taking away the rights and values of ordinary people (there has been a similar debate in the UK - though the courts eventually threw it out/banned the government from using such methods). That is what you are contending with. Politicians will always take as much power as you are prepared to allow them to have.

In any case for all the reasons that JF listed, torture and other such brutal practices can never be tolerated in a civilized society - no matter how barbaric your enemy may sometimes seem. Victory - like freedom and peace - if we are ever to have any chance of preserving it - can only ever be achieved justly. Corrupting these ideals can only ultimately lead us to our own downfall. We may well defeat our enemy - but the danger is that we risk defeating ourselves in the process of doing so.

GJ

PoopyTheJ

I think it's pretty ignorant to go claiming people hate the US because the people are free/american/whatever. I would say there's a lot more to hate the US for than that, for instance, Pinochet, Pol Pot, Osam Bin Laden was/is CIA, School of the Americas, etc. The US is hardly the pearly white bastion of civilization and goodness our resident Right wingers seem to think it is. It's hard to adhere to one of the political parties or even to listen to political rheotoric these days without wanting to gag. The Right historically have wanted to allow commercial freedoms and bind your personal activities in chains, the left on the other hand has historically wanted to bind your commercial capabilities in chains and allow personal freedoms. Of course today both sides want to chain both personal and commercial activities. The US government is a group of bad men who want to increase their power and authority by whatever means necessary. The fact that they can do this and fool a large part of the populace into beleiving it's for their own good is scary and a masterpeice of political disingenuity. I'm not saying necassarily that the US government is worse than any other government, I mean I am, NZ has a better way of going about things for one. The US isn't that different from a bunch of other countries, we're socialist, we beleive in torture, we beleive in the use of Nuclera weapons, we're money hungry and power hungry. Let's face facts here, if we want to stop terrorism we need to start here at home, get rid of the School of the Americas, throw out the current nation building crowd and get a group in there who actually believes in human rights, we'd cut down on terrorism a great deal faster than our current bomb em to hell philosophy.

bird chest

Why don't you also try also respecting an alrernate culture. If they only hate the US why do they have cells in all of the western countries? These terrorists are more then what you are claiming. They hate are way of life cause we are to explicit. We have sex on tv, sex is an acceptable thing outside of marriage, I could keep going but I don't want to waist your time. MY point is is that just being nice to them is not going to fix the problem.

bluelight

No that is correct.Unfortunatley "War against terrorism" isnt working either however strange it seems.

Powell was sent out a week ago to say that the previousy announced decrase in terrorism since the declaration of War against terrorism....was in reality no decrease.Instead terrorism has INCREASED since then..despite that at least ten thousand people has been arrested globally.

So....How long does the car contiue at full speed with nobody at the wheel?


Bluelight

zerodamage

I have a complaint to make about Bluelight's signature. That type of language in the public forums is inappropriate.

bluelight

Complaint?

I think you have posted a relevant and balanced comment and of course i am free to qoute it and since you actually wrote it and posted it i suppose it is representative for how you think.The fact that you posted it in the flamezone isnt making any difference.It looks to me like you have posted your wiew on previous issues such as homosexuality and also on which way republicans do...and do not exprewss themselves....nothing else..

Well you made your point.


And of course im keeping it as long as i like or until an admin tell me to remove it.



Ok?


Bluelight

zerodamage

Nice, you making up things. Nice Job bluelight.

raid517

Erm... I just had a look and you did actually say that.

I had no idea I had gotten to you so much. Lol

You are utterly deluded if you think what you said upsets me. If anything it simply proves the point for me of exactly the kind of person you are - about what level you are willing to descend to - and your utter inability to debate political subjects calmly and rationally.

I don't find it upsetting that your feelings appear to be so terribly hurt by the things that have been said here - in fact as I said previously knowing this only makes me feel a great deal of inner satisfaction.

As someone pointed out to you if your opinions had any validity at all and you were able to carry them with any conviction, you would be able to stay calm and debate your views rationally, just like everyone else, without causing every thread you participate in to be closed down, because all you are able to do when the going gets tough is scream and shout and insult others like an immature little child.

And going by your most recent rantings I think it is clear that your claim to represent the views of the 'moral right' have no validity whatsoever. I think going by any decent standards, even by the standards of the FlameWazone, you have overstepped just about every standard of human decency it is possible to imagine. Your use of language is both simultaneously inventive and vile.

In any case as I said, at least I am prepared to stay here and slug it out. Rather than resort to the filth of the gutter and descend to your level of straight out puerile name calling and disgusting insults.

I must say it does nothing to raise you in my eyes (and I suspect in the eyes of many others here) as any kind of serious debating force on this forum.

Best regards,

GJ

bluelight

Actually...i couldnt stand Rush...to i flushed him and i cant stand you...so im leaving this board permanently.

I have removed the qoutes of your posts from my signature because i am not like you.

I have moral.You dont.

Whatsmore...God ..is with me and he doesnt like hysterical republicans.He actiüaaly has said so but im not posting any links to his site tp prove it.

So good night fine representavive of the republican party.The PURE political direction.

Sleep well.

Im sure your future here will be completley free from friction (not talking sex here..im not as you as i said and im not republican so i dont play that game ) now that i leave.



It was nice knowing some of you.

Bluey




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Qoute:Zerodamage.The true representavive of balanced Republicans. 04 06 15

"Fuck you you little Pinko pot smoking hippy freak. Why don't you and Raid go find some 15 year old girls to get high with. while you are at it, since you love homosexuality so much, go get married. Send us the marriage photos here at DH. You two can be our first gay couple. "

You stupid fuktard. You put that in as your signature? Are you that stupid? Do you not know that children read forums such as the political forums and will see your signature? You are one fucking stupid pinko.

zerodamage

Lets see if you are good to your word.

We know it isn't true.

raid517

I wouldn't spend too long gloating if I were you ZD.

I'm not going anywhere.

GJ

bird chest

Ah man!!!

PoopyTheJ

Amazing another thread completely derailed

raid517

No actually it's kind of sickening.

We can't have a serious conversation around here any more.

That's how bad it's gotten.

GJ

mainman

Could we please stay ON TOPIC and STOP insulting people....please. This is really getting out of hand.

Asmoday

Who died and made you a moderator Mainman....



j/k

PoopyTheJ

Trying to stay on topic,
Go ahead please waste my time, I'd rather you do it than hear more attacks and petty wrangling. I didn't say necessarily be nice, I said leave them ALONE. We're pissing them off by our desire to have them live our way, accept the leaders we put in power over them, so long as they lean our way anyways, when they stop we take em out again. I would say their far more pissed at us over our nation building and colonial attitude than they are about our "sinful" ways.

bluelight

Funny when i saw the delight with wich you posted your reply and the hope you expressed i decided to keep my signature.




Bluelight

dj_stick

the "religious" and "sinful" aspects are what those who lead the terrorist organisations feed to their impressionable followers, causing them to harbour a deep hatred towards western nations. Why? because they are jealous of the prosperity of western nations.

this is why there are also rumours of state-sanction terrorist activities from the middle-east nations

bird chest

Well then why are they not mad at Russia also then? It is more about the difference in our cultures. They really do hate our way of life and not because they are jealous. They do despise our country because of its freedom and not because they want our freedom but because they are fundamentalists and hate our sinful ways.

raid517

I could pretty much go along with that.

They don't want us to be nice to them. They want us to submit to rule by Islamic law. They want to force our conversion to Islam.

It's worth remembering in this though that these guys represent only a very small minority. They are undoubtedly extremists.

I am unsure if there is anything we could do to make them happy.

It kind of makes me think that maybe this war we have now will never end.

And that's a very depressing thought.

GJ

zerodamage

I thought you left? I noticed the admins didn't much care for your signature either.

zerodamage

If you would just debate Raid without the references to everyone that you disagree with being Nazi, Homophobe, Racist, and everything else, this forum would be much better.

raid517

Oh shut up for once will you. Stop wrecking these threads.

Show some balls and some maturity. Get over it.

GJ

zerodamage