Dutch is gone 1911 - 2004

zerodamage

No Raid. This is where I have a problem with you and the things you say here. I am not extreme right. The problem you have is that I defend what I believe in whether it be a conservative belief or not and your answer to this is a hystarical scream of "Extreme Right Winger" or "Nazi" or "Homophobe." None of my standings are racist or homophobic but this is your way of getting out of seriously discussing the issue at hand. This is why I prefer not to discuss politics with you anymore. I am not sure if you seriously believe your accusations or if you are just a clown trying to get a laugh on my behalf. I appreciate you believe in what you do, everyone needs something to believe in, the problem is that you do not respect other's beliefs. You resort to false accusation and insults which you couldn't even help from doing in your last post. I hope you read this and seriously think about it because I would like to debate things here but I will NOT get banned again due to your insults and accusations getting under my skin. Facts about genetics made by scientists do not make me a racist. Not agreeing with homosexual mariage doesn't make me a homophobe. Please move past this nonsense and lets seriously discuss things.

Now Joystick really has come off as a bigot and someone trying to start an argument with everyone. I noticed this in numerous posts and I believe his days here on DH are numbered. He is quite good at doing what he does without bringing about much with the mods. I wouldn't say he is a Nazi and I do not defend his words at all, but he is coming off as anti-Semitic.

Falstaff

it isnt illegal to be a bigot

raid517

Well I cut you some slack ZD. Like I said I'm not putting you in quite the same category in this instance - and on the face of it it is nice to see that we agree for a change (mostly) on what is going on here.

But you forget it isn't just me who has called some of your comments homophobic, or bigoted or racist or whatever. Even a lot of people who you might think would be on your side have openly condemned you views. (Though largely I don't identify the majority of the American right with many of these idea). Moreover I didn't get you banned. It might be worth considering that finally, other people from all sections of this forum became tired of your extreme views and it was YOU who got yourself banned. Clearly you don't see that a lot of the opinions you hold are extremist in nature - however a great many other people did/do feel that way - and they are not necessarily all from the left either.

However as I said there is a difference - and at this time perhaps now in the light of day if we do make comparisons maybe it is clear there is indeed a real difference between you and a genuine Nazi. I won't say what I think that is, because you might think I'm out to hurt your feelings - however it is safe to say that when a genuine Nazi does show up, you probably make quite a bad comparison.

I assure you though that if the world was once more dominated with people like this (which I am certain it never will be) the vast majority of the American right establishment (and the left) would probably feel inspired to want to take these guys on again.

We fought that war for a reason, y'kow - and we fought it together for a reason too.

You oght to think about what that means sometimes.

GJ

zerodamage

It's obvious that I can't reach you. None of my views are extremist. The problem is that you are so far to the other that my opinion shared by the majority of American's seems extreme to you and many others here. The Majority of Americans are not for gay marriage. Yet somehow my views on it are extreme dispite that fact. Link1 Link #2 Link #3 These are all legitate polls. There is no disputing this. Now how the U.S. Government works is the people tell those that they voted for what they want for a vote. That is how a democracy works. You may disapprove this but that is how American Politics works. So now that you know that view is not extremist but rather the majority of American opinion, we can move on and away from your fictional assumptions.

Raid, I do not want you to cut me any slack. I want you to RESPECT other's opinions without the false accusations because you disagree with them. Can you do that? Without a huge long winded response, can you do as I ask? I am very forgiving but even I have a limit.

raid517

Well it's what you do with these 'polls' and what you do with these discredited pseudo 'scientific' texts and how you opt to interpret them that people find offensive.

Going from saying you disagree with gay marriage to describing gay people as 'abnormal' or living a 'deviant life style' is not a leap most people would make. Most people are pretty moderate whether they have mostly left wing or right wing leanings. Similarly, describing people of certain ethnic origins as 'unfit for public service' based on racial grounds alone, is seen as a classically racist perspective - whether you are able to recognize it or not.

I know you are won over by the links and data you posted - but the reality is that little of this came from any kind of credible academic source. Doctors of unknown qualifications, fundamentalist Christian anti Gay sites, 60 year old research papers that had since been conclusively disproved and discredited, communal garden nurses and the like - but nothing of any real merit or weight that anybody with a hint of academic training would be inspired to take seriously.

So no if you repeated the same view again, I would STILL call them out for what I thought/knew them to be.

Like I said, whether you want it or not, I cut you a break this time. I don't really think you're a Nazi - since after talking to someone who appears to be one, I doubt very much if you have anything approaching the real philosophical or intellectual commitment to be a genuine 'National Socialist.'

But that doesn't prevent you from being other things that I might not admire very much either.

Like I said, if you say things that the majority of people would consider racist or homophobic, there is no way I'm going to feel like sparing your feelings - or being shy of saying so.

GJ

PS

I totally disagree anyway that 'democracy represents the view of the majority.' That's not democracy, that's mob rule. True democracy should represent the views of everyone - not just the people who can shout the loudest.

raid517

PS

As for wind... Lol... I'm afraid that is something I have god a lot of left in me. You are going to have to get used to it I'm afraid. The weather outlook for the forseeable future is looking decidedly breezy.

GJ

malkor

I'm not coming to the defense of anyone here. I only want to defend debate, which is what this forum is for, but not what it has become. There have been some articulate and not so articulate, yet thoughtful posts. There have been many unthoughtful posts, a lot of name calling and finger pointing. A lot of personal attacks and hard feelings. And of course, some outrageous refuse.

Debates start out here interesting enough, then quickly they either get hijacked and detoured by a completely off the wall post full of claptrap or sidetracked by personal feelings. In the end they all degrade into a sophomoric and childish display that is entertaining to those who find the likes of Jerry Springer (or whatever that fool's name is) entertaining.

Debate. Concentrate on the post, not the poster. Attack the content, not the person. Defend your views, not your hurt feelings. We have a flamewar zone for that.

raid517

I don't think any of that is likely to change Malkor. There are too many egos at play.

But at least I agree that some threads/posts here were misplaced - as they were specifically about someone's hurt feelings - and had little to do with debate or politics at all.

Despite that, I think once or twice some of us did try to guide it that way, but ultimately I think people's competing opinions and personal insecurities will always get in the way of any really genuine or considered debate.

Maybe it's a limitation of the medium. Maybe if we had a real debating society, where people had to face each other, things wouldn't always get quite so heated.

GJ

malkor

hehe, unfortunately you're probably right. Never hurts to scream for a bit of sanity from time to time though.

This thread was actually started about the death of a former president, and look where we've come. LOL.

raid517

Oh right well wrong thread. I was referring to the 'Hitler is a Socialist' thread. I guess I've been positing on both a bit too much tonight.

GJ

zerodamage

Oh for crying out loud. I did nothing but post up the facts and had links to prove it. Discredited? By who? How and what discredited my links on Genetics? Nothing. You must think YOUR word over rules scientists. This is getting pathetic. It realy is.

Once again I need to spell this out like I am talking to an 8 year old kid. It is MY opinion that the gay lifestyle is abnormal. Now there is nothing in my statement there that says that gays are abnormal. The lifestyle. There is a difference and of course that means nothing to you. You just look for something so you can claim homophobe, racist, nazi, or whatever else you do.
I also NEVER said that Kerry is unfit for public service based on racial backgrounds. Once again I call upon you to back that up. Prove it. Prove it if you have the balls to look up what I said. I do believe Kerry is unfit due to his poor voting record, possible ties with other world leaders that he refuses to name, his flipflopping, etc. Not because he may be french.

I know I must be talking to a delusional. Different doctors, credited in the links I provided on Genetics, something YOU ARE NOT. Posted by LEGITIMATE news sources. Not Christian sites, not anti Gay sites. This is just more bs nonense from you and I swear you must be insane. Your claims of what was posted and said do not match up with the facts. I can not keep doing this. Prove what you say in the future or I ignore you. Make more bullshit accusations and you can consider then ignored. In a real debate with real people, you would not have a chance. People do not act as you do in real life and have many friends with which to discuss such things with.

Which is why your claim of "Nazi' has because the same as the boy who cried wolf. No one knows whether it is the real deal or another stupid false accusation from you.

I do not want you to cut me any breaks and from reading everything above, you haven't. You still lack the common ability to read a straight forward comment from anyone and understand what it means. You take maybe 3 words from a 12 word sentence and jump to conclusions.
I am not sure if you last sentense is a compliment or an insult. I will for the sake of not having to respond to more crap from you, I will take it as just delusional ranting from you.

I know being right must really piss you off.

The majority of people do not think this. Just you and those who do not respect others opinions when they disagree. You can't be intellectually honest enough to admit that you have zero respect for other's opinions. You resort to the same thing EVERY GODDAMN TIME. I do not understand how you've managed to say on these forums so long treating people this way. It is amazing to me and highly hypocritical.

raid517

No there is a certain branch of opinion I don't have much respect for. It really is that simple.

And you are a little too easily impressed by things that sound 'scientific' to you. The mere fact that someone claims to be a doctor seems to impress you beyond all proportion - yet you give little consideration to what they might be doctors in. For all anyone knew the few 'doctors' you did quote, might well have been doctors in tree surgery. The one common trait most of them shared was an inability for anyone to confirm the nature and extent of their qualifications. Your so called 'scientific papers' also shared this common trait - in that none to a sentence had ever been published in a reputable scientific or medical journal - or had even been sponsored/published by a recognized academic institution. So to this end I believe my contention was and still is that you appeared unable to understand the concept of what a credible scientific source meant.


I'm not sure that this is the place to drag all of this up again, indeed some of your language is deliberately inflammatory and you are clearly looking to start an old fight again.

I don't know how productive that is likely to be.

However if you want to open a new thread and debate the validity (or otherwise) of some of your previous sources, please feel free to do so. But I put it to you humbly that I wouldn't personally be so quick to discount my own academic understanding of these matters. I spent 6 years at University - which by all decent standards still has to account for something. I am sure we could look at what you have and see if it stands up in the cold light of day.

But as I said, I ask you to tone your responses down somewhat. I don't like you screaming at me - when really I have been quite conciliatory towards you. If you keep it up it may be a case of which of us can reach for the ignore button first.

Really to be honest I am of the opinion that we will never get on - and that for the benefit of debate and to avoid these constant flare ups where you clearly want to start fights all the time, if maybe we did place each other on ignore.

It is tiresome (and not just for me I expect) to constantly go over the same old ground again and again ad infinitum.

I don't see it ever getting us anywhere.

GJ

Falstaff

xenophobic perhaps but not homophobic necessarily. everyone without exception has unrealistic fears of something they dont understand

JoyStick

ZD called me a bigot


Anti-semitic? Let's not label, now...

And besides, is anti-semitism ever a result of their own behavior? I mean, seriously. Look at the ADL for christs sake. They're the biggest American based terrorist organization just short of the Jewish Defense League (WHY THE HELL, HELL, HELLLLL , would they NEED a DEFENSE LEAGUE?) I mean, HONESTLY. Did you guys read up about the Colorado incident?

If not, I'll post it for you, just to show you how friggin twisted, and unrelenting these people are in their search to "Put a stop to anti-semitism everywhere".


http://www.jewishsf.com/bk000512/usadlsuit.shtml

Oh, yes.. (Jewish) neighbor gets mad that dog bites other dog, or whatever, so he taps their phone, and calls the ADL.. The ADL spreads nazi literature around the neighborhoods, and blames it on the Quigleys. The Quigleys are then spied on, invaded, and harassed/fired from their jobs for being "anti-semitics" and then the law stepped in (amazingly enough), and sued the crap out of the ADL for being so damn nosey, and retarded.


Yeah, it ain't "Kosher" to have some terrorists LEGALLY running around the neighborhood spying on people, and calling them nazis for no apparent reason.

That's why I have a problem with these people. Not because they're jewish, but because, for whatever reason, they're all acting together to screw people over sooo hard.


"They're just good at business"

This kind of business shouldn't be "tolerated". You tell ME why it is, oh Godly "Raid".

Why are they allowed to do stuff like this? Who knows how many MORE things like this were done, and NOT discovered...


So, yeah... I guess since most of these people screwing my country right up her bum are jewish, that makes me an anti-semite, but big f'ing deal. They brought it on themselves.

raid517

Well as I have always said, for me there is an easy test. If you are happy to live and let live - and do not believe that you should interfere in people's lives (whether than means allowing gays to live in civil unions - or marriages or whatever) then you are AOK in my book. But if the idea of even spending a few minutes in a gay person's company makes you break out in a cold sweat, if you think that gay people should be legislated against, marginalized, (thrown out of their jobs etc.) perhaps even criminalized, if you think gay people can and should be cured (and if not cured perhaps castrated), if you think that the best response to gay people is to feed them a diet of constant religion, to instill fear of gay people among young children, to associate gay people as exclusively child molesters etc... then by any decent and commonly accepted standard this would by definition make you a homophobe. Otherwise what do you think the term homophobe actually means? Now whether anyone here actually recognizes themselves in that description I don't know - but I doubt there are many moderate/reasonable thinking people who would disagree very much with the definition.

I'm not going to resort to using dictionaries again - but my guess is if you did, that this is about as close an actual definition as you would get.

GJ

JoyStick

And? Where is the point? You define homophobia, but for what reason? I wouldn't necessarily call someone who thinks homosexuality is "wrong", or "Immoral" to be a homophobic individual. If it goes against their religion, especially not then. They've been "told" to dislike these individuals.

So, what is your point?

Rasta Monsta

May that evil bastard rot in hell.

bluelight

What was it that Hitler did ...that was legitimate?

Realated as you phrase it in the same sentence ...to Jews.









IM REALLY curious.






Bluelight

raid517

OH Blue you know what the point was. 'That Hitler was really quite an interesting guy - and wouldn't it be cool if his policies were put into practice throughout the world today?'

Of course we know how silly a point of view that is. But all you seem to be doing is trying to make the resident pet Nazi dance for you. Kind of pointless if you ask me.

Just let it go. Let him go. It doesn't help or contribute anything towards serious debate to keep prodding at it.

GJ

raid517

Anyway back to the topic.

Do you think RR made a good president?

I just thought he made kind of a funny one. Some of the blunders he made were just plumb hilarious. Like the time he announced on live TV that he had launched a full scale nuclear attack against the Soviet Union. I bet a few people pooped the pants on that day.

GJ

zerodamage

A lot of people in the U.S. are against homosexuality. Actually, the majority of Americans are. They do not hate the homosexual, just the ideaology behind it. That doens't make us homophobes. That is a cop-out to real discussion by those without the intellect to accept other people's opinions.

This is why I will not post about this stuff anymore and actually, I am thinking of not posting in these forums anymore at all. (the political forums that is). Leftist extremists like Raid make it impossible to exchange ideas. If I wanted this type of treatment, I would spend time at the DemocraticUnderground. (Not that I want to give them more traffic, but I do think Raid and Bluelight would enjoy themselves a lot more over there. http://www.democraticunderground.com/)

bluelight

First would you specify the ideology behind homosexuality to me.

Second...dont tell me what to do and not to do when it comes to what sites i visit.

Thank you.

Bluelight