14-year old girl expelled for fiction written in Private Journal

ZzzombieBunny · Nov 2, 2003, 10:46 AM

Yes criminals will get guns wethever they are legal or not. but not ALL criminals will get them and certainly not 6 year old kids who go out and shoot other kids up, or teenagers going to school and shooting other teenagers up with an arsenal of weapons used by a the army.

As for the matter of nuclear weapons. Does anyone really think that France is going to attack the US or maybe Russia invading England? Who are we protecting ourselves from with these weapons of world destruction with? Bin Laden? Well if anything 11th September proved nuclear weapons doesnt protect you from acts of war.

Israel being under constants attack by suicide bombers, the whole area is considered an inoffical warzone.. do their nuclear weapons protect them from this, no.

North Korea is developing nuclear weapons and america is working agains it, why, isnt that a good thing? It would prevent anyone from messing around with North Korea, one less war to be concernd about, right?

Hell, lets give every country in the world nuclear weapons, that would surely cause world peace... I mean, no one would ever consider using them, right?

Its the same poor logic as with the public having acess to weapons, it doesnt solve crime or make society anymore safer.. it just produces more dead people.

Imagine where we would be if all countries spent less money on the military, on developing weapons... and more money on education, healthcare and envoking human rights into their society.

digerati · Nov 2, 2003, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZzzombieBunny
Yes criminals will get guns wethever they are legal or not. but not ALL criminals will get them and certainly not 6 year old kids who go out and shoot other kids up, or teenagers going to school and shooting other teenagers up with an arsenal of weapons used by a the army.

As for the matter of nuclear weapons. Does anyone really think that France is going to attack the US or maybe Russia invading England? Who are we protecting ourselves from with these weapons of world destruction with? Bin Laden? Well if anything 11th September proved nuclear weapons doesnt protect you from acts of war.

Israel being under constants attack by suicide bombers, the whole area is considered an inoffical warzone.. do their nuclear weapons protect them from this, no.

North Korea is developing nuclear weapons and america is working agains it, why, isnt that a good thing? It would prevent anyone from messing around with North Korea, one less war to be concernd about, right?

Hell, lets give every country in the world nuclear weapons, that would surely cause world peace... I mean, no one would ever consider using them, right?

Its the same poor logic as with the public having acess to weapons, it doesnt solve crime or make society anymore safer.. it just produces more dead people.

Imagine where we would be if all countries spent less money on the military, on developing weapons... and more money on education, healthcare and envoking human rights into their society.

If your speaking about the 6 year old from Moore's movie, the person he was staying with was actually a gang member and the gun was illegal from the start. And the kids who shot up Columbine couldn't obtain those guns legally because of their age and the type of weapons they had.

America has had the nuke the longest, and we have refrained from using it, in Vietnam and in North Korea. So obviously we don't just use it whenever. And some countries shouldn't have nukes because of their aggresive behavior. And Israel needs protection, their land is an unofficial warzone yet they don't go and declare war on all of Palestine. Why? Because then every Arab nation would declare war on Israel, then America would join the war, then England, etc. etc.

The Muslim religion doesn't seem as peaceful as other religions to me. Blowing yourself up to kill civilians? Killing your wife or sister because she shamed your family by not covering up her whole body, seeing a guy she wasn't supposed to, or converting to a different religion. The whole religion seems to have violence at every corner, and they surround and attack Israel constantly. What would you rather Israel do? Take away all the guns they have, go on normal lives and if they're attacked just ignore it? Because Israel disarming itself won't please anyone who's trying to hurt it.

ZzzombieBunny · Nov 2, 2003, 01:42 PM

Islam isnt a violent religion just because theres a few loud fundamentalists like the talibans doing suicide attacks on western culture. Its just pure ignorance to assume a muslim would be any more violent than any other religious person. It doesnt say in the Koran that you should go out and blow yourself and others up to get to heaven, theres always nut cases in all religions, if you read the Koran as well as the christian bible, its clear that people define it as they want to and religion in all is very easy to use to get power and oppress people.

Just take the crusades for an example... thousands and thousands of people around europe pretty much joined a big suicide marathon because they were promised a better life in heaven. Jews around europe were massacred on sight in the name of God.

Saying Islam is a violent religion due to a few suicide bombers and the talibans.. is like saying all christians are racists due to the KKK or that catholics are pedophiles due to a few catholic priests being so.

digerati · Nov 2, 2003, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZzzombieBunny
Islam isnt a violent religion just because theres a few loud fundamentalists like the talibans doing suicide attacks on western culture. Its just pure ignorance to assume a muslim would be any more violent than any other religious person. It doesnt say in the Koran that you should go out and blow yourself and others up to get to heaven, theres always nut cases in all religions, if you read the Koran as well as the christian bible, its clear that people define it as they want to and religion in all is very easy to use to get power and oppress people.

Just take the crusades for an example... thousands and thousands of people around europe pretty much joined a big suicide marathon because they were promised a better life in heaven. Jews around europe were massacred on sight in the name of God.

Saying Islam is a violent religion due to a few suicide bombers and the talibans.. is like saying all christians are racists due to the KKK or that catholics are pedophiles due to a few catholic priests being so.

The Koran says to kill infidels if they're against you. And if you die as a Martyr (or however you spell it) you will go to heaven and get what is it? 71 virgins? You ever read the bible, says love your enemy, because God will judge them in the end. The Koran has a different approach, it says to kill them. And don't just ignore the killing of women if they shame your family part, picking one part of my arguement and saying it's ignorant isn't exactly the best approach.

JavaFox · Nov 2, 2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZzzombieBunny
North Korea is developing nuclear weapons and america is working agains it, why, isnt that a good thing? It would prevent anyone from messing around with North Korea, one less war to be concernd about, right?

Hell, lets give every country in the world nuclear weapons, that would surely cause world peace... I mean, no one would ever consider using them, right?

Reread my post. I said "the cost of using these horrible weapons is so high that [...] national nations [are] unwilling to use them." Of course I don't support every country acquiring nuclear weapons. Good straw man, though.

Quote:

Imagine where we would be if all countries spent less money on the military, on developing weapons... and more money on education, healthcare and envoking human rights into their society.

Why should we want to spend less on one of the only legitimate functions of government?

JavaFox · Nov 2, 2003, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ^_^
The Koran says to kill infidels if they're against you. And if you die as a Martyr (or however you spell it) you will go to heaven and get what is it? 71 virgins? You ever read the bible, says love your enemy, because God will judge them in the end. The Koran has a different approach, it says to kill them. And don't just ignore the killing of women if they shame your family part, picking one part of my arguement and saying it's ignorant isn't exactly the best approach.

Maybe you should read the rest of the Bible, ^_^. Every religion talks about violence. What do you think the Jews had to do to get into the Promised Land? What do you think the Bible calls for as a punishment for adultery, false prophethood, beastiality, or homosexuality?

digerati · Nov 2, 2003, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
Maybe you should read the rest of the Bible, ^_^. Every religion talks about violence. What do you think the Jews had to do to get into the Promised Land? What do you think the Bible calls for as a punishment for adultery, false prophethood, beastiality, or homosexuality?

But we have laws against those types of punishment. While Muslim nations often base laws based on the Koran. Either way when Jesus died he cleansed the sins for people past and beyond, or so what Christians are told nowadays. So the sins can be forgiven when asking for forgiveness and it will be left at that and God will decide. The old testament is harsh stuff, which is why I said Bible and not Old testament.

digerati · Nov 2, 2003, 07:38 PM

And I probably should say this. The people who blow themselves up are a mix of normal everyday middle eastern people and total fanatics. Now why would the normal everyday joe do this? Money for his family, not to go and kill innocent people. The Koran says to kill infidels, the fanatics think Americans are the infidels (or at least say we are) and will pay plenty of money to have people do damage. I'm sure most people worldwide would agree what the Koran says doesn't apply here and the Muslims shouldn't be classified based on the suicide bombings. But they do a lot of more violent things, and by they I mean the heavy Muslim followers who stone women in the streets who aren't completely covered up. NOT the majority who just want to get along with their lives in peace and solitude with their family. But the sad part is that the fanatics aren't punished because of the laws. It reminds me of the south in America not too far back *shiver* So much evil in the world. Which reminds me..

ZzzombieBunny · Nov 2, 2003, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ^_^
But we have laws against those types of punishment. While Muslim nations often base laws based on the Koran. Either way when Jesus died he cleansed the sins for people past and beyond, or so what Christians are told nowadays. So the sins can be forgiven when asking for forgiveness and it will be left at that and God will decide. The old testament is harsh stuff, which is why I said Bible and not Old testament.

theres laws against false prophethood? So those crazy drunk bums on the street yelling out claims of the armageddon today (or tomorrow or the day after tomorrow... after tomorrow.. or next year) can be punished by law? Ah just kidding...

But your views on muslims are still kinda outdated... not all muslim nations use those laws as much, even if they still exists.. its kinda like with all those old crazy laws that still exists in the US... like gay people not being able to get married and stuff like that. But its agreeable that most muslim countries are a bit behind when it comes to human rights... but that doesnt equal to all muslims agreeing with Jihad or killing their daugther because shes dating someone you dont aprove of...

Not to mention there exists less fundamental uses of the Islam (often considered as infidels by the more hardcore islamists. take Bin Laden and the Talibans in Afghanistan...) in some countries, etc Afghanistan and Egypt. Not to mention most "western muslims" etc american, european... I had both palestine and israel friends at school, they got well along.

Its dangerous to draw everyone under the same comb (or whatever the saying is..), because it just increases uncessary prejudice... its easy to sit back and say "those people back there on the other side of the planet are a bunch of uncivilized savages, due to one or two of em killing their sisters or daugthers for dishonoring the family"... yet im sure people back there are saying similar about western culture "Those people back there on the other side of the planet are just plain evil, holy men raping little children.."

If theres anythig I can agree to, its that religion can be used for many bad things... but in average the all contain a message of peace and harmony... no one could claim that any of the bigger religions truly belive in evil and hatred.

JavaFox · Nov 2, 2003, 07:55 PM

Agreed, Zombie. No generalization about Muslims can be made. They are more myriad than Christians, and to suggest that anything about their religion predisposes them to violence is ignorant at best and intolerant at worst.

Most Middle Eastern nations are not theocracies, they are dictatorships -- usually secular. Suicide bombers are adherents of militant Islam. Militan Islam (jihadism) isn't a religion; it's a political movement.

digerati · Nov 2, 2003, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ZzzombieBunny
theres laws against false prophethood? So those crazy drunk bums on the street yelling out claims of the armageddon today (or tomorrow or the day after tomorrow... after tomorrow.. or next year) can be punished by law? Ah just kidding...

But your views on muslims are still kinda outdated... not all muslim nations use those laws as much, even if they still exists.. its kinda like with all those old crazy laws that still exists in the US... like gay people not being able to get married and stuff like that. But its agreeable that most muslim countries are a bit behind when it comes to human rights... but that doesnt equal to all muslims agreeing with Jihad or killing their daugther because shes dating someone you dont aprove of...

Not to mention there exists less fundamental uses of the Islam (often considered as infidels by the more hardcore islamists. take Bin Laden and the Talibans in Afghanistan...) in some countries, etc Afghanistan and Egypt. Not to mention most "western muslims" etc american, european... I had both palestine and israel friends at school, they got well along.

Its dangerous to draw everyone under the same comb (or whatever the saying is..), because it just increases uncessary prejudice... its easy to sit back and say "those people back there on the other side of the planet are a bunch of uncivilized savages, due to one or two of em killing their sisters or daugthers for dishonoring the family"... yet im sure people back there are saying similar about western culture "Those people back there on the other side of the planet are just plain evil, holy men raping little children.."

If theres anythig I can agree to, its that religion can be used for many bad things... but in average the all contain a message of peace and harmony... no one could claim that any of the bigger religions truly belive in evil and hatred.

I have a Muslim friend. Her name is Neuron, she's known as the Muslim girl because she is pretty much the only one. She's very nice, and most American Muslims are. It's pretty much the surroundings that I'm worried about. I think a Muslim was running for California's governor too lol. It's the laws that are outdated, where violence is not totally discouraged. Where everyone has an AK, and kids use them and are trained to use them. It's a pro gun control person's nightmare. And we are making changes to gays not being able to get Married, especially with Arnold as our new governor. But honestly if there was a big Muslim politician who said he was going to try and get gay marriage legalized, what do you think would happen to him?

Judas · Nov 3, 2003, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mazuko
First off I want to say I haven't read any of the posts other than the initial one, I just wanted to post my view on this particular topic.

As a teacher in the Dearborn Public Schools here in Michigan I really believe that what the girl wrote was inappropriate. However, this brings into questions modern day perceptions. Forty years ago, hell even 20 years ago, something like this would never have even made the news. The girl would have been punished by her parents and she would have been suspended for a day or two, and probably had to go see the counselor. Today, things aren't how they used to be. After the Colombine shootings and the whole "going Postal" series of events everyone is afraid of everything. What she wrote was inappropriate yes, but hell everyone here has mumbled under their breaths "I hate my parent I wish they were dead" or thought of/wrote down something to that effect. We never got expelled for it...the expulsion should not have occured.

But I believe the girl should have been talked to by a counselor and her parents to find out why she wrote what she did. Beyond that, I really don't think she did anything wrong. Kids will be kids, we all make mistakes and writing down something like that in a personal journal that someone obviously picked up and read...is just not worthy of so harsh a punishment.

?...

I happened to know a few teachers and sent this article to them..... all of them replied back that it was ok...since it didn't happen.... but who can judge a thought... we start getting into that....we have more problems and privacy problems then anyone could beleive.... this just gets sadder by the moment.... i don't want to say "forget about colobine.... life goes on" but in actuallity, this is what somewhat needs to be done..... alot of things happened that day that i can't say i completely disagree with..... but i will say that things ABVIOUSLY got to the point that someone had to die to prove it.... at the school i was at....similar thoughts went through my mind...as you wouldn't have an idea what bullshit i was putting up with..... majority of anyone even slightly intelligent would say i was very smart...... but teachers would say otherwise..... And as far as i can say.... school is bull..... grades mean nothing.... you can't judge a persons skills and intelligents by a simple number..... all it ends up doing is giving those with high marks... abilities that people with low mark will never get.... and majority of the time... the ones with high marks are rather quite...... how should i say.... not exactly what those marks saposedly "represent"......

Purevil · Dec 3, 2003, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wretch
...Just for a moment think about life 1000 years from now.. will guns still be part of American culture in any other form than in a museum?

What American culture? At the rate of deterioration we are currently at, we will out live America.

digerati · Dec 3, 2003, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Purevil
What American culture? At the rate of deterioration we are currently at, we will out live America.

Something I totally agree with. DIE MTV!! DIE!!!

bird chest · Dec 3, 2003, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ^_^
And I probably should say this. The people who blow themselves up are a mix of normal everyday middle eastern people and total fanatics. Now why would the normal everyday joe do this? Money for his family, not to go and kill innocent people. The Koran says to kill infidels, the fanatics think Americans are the infidels (or at least say we are) and will pay plenty of money to have people do damage. I'm sure most people worldwide would agree what the Koran says doesn't apply here and the Muslims shouldn't be classified based on the suicide bombings. But they do a lot of more violent things, and by they I mean the heavy Muslim followers who stone women in the streets who aren't completely covered up. NOT the majority who just want to get along with their lives in peace and solitude with their family. But the sad part is that the fanatics aren't punished because of the laws. It reminds me of the south in America not too far back *shiver* So much evil in the world. Which reminds me..

The kuran says holy war is ok or Jihad and does not say kill infidels. The point of this is to spread the religion not kill every person who does not believe the religion. I am not saying this is good but it is vastly different from what you are saying. Nowhere in the kuran does it say women have to cover up either. But the US did pretty much the same thing to black people and we passed it off in religion during that time. So yes religion is a basis for a lot of conflict but is it not also a source for peace for some? I also pose the question that maybe these people would do these things anyways but just do it and use religion as their scape goat?

bird chest · Dec 3, 2003, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Purevil
What American culture? At the rate of deterioration we are currently at, we will out live America.

right and no other country has its low points.... every society has positives and negatives. Also I would like to know how are society is deteriorating. As I remember the hippies did not work and just did drugs that was really productive. I think we are doing better smoking, drug use, and drinking are all going down! Crime rates in the US is also going down so what is deteriorating in our culture.

KRN-Drak · Dec 3, 2003, 02:53 AM

This argument is pointless for you liberals btw. I've realized in the Political and Flamefest forums that about roughly 70-80% of the people that troll those forums live out in Texas or Minnesota and other low population hick states and love their guns. Stubborn republican bull heads that are living in their own state of mind. So don't bother guys. Just be content your not a moron.

Judas · Dec 3, 2003, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bird chest
right and no other country has its low points.... every society has positives and negatives. Also I would like to know how are society is deteriorating. As I remember the hippies did not work and just did drugs that was really productive. I think we are doing better smoking, drug use, and drinking are all going down! Crime rates in the US is also going down so what is deteriorating in our culture.

problem is exactly some of the things that are going down...

Drugs... good think....

smoking...

well different story...

What rights we do have and appears that we will have for a long period of time.... we shouldn't really have... and or is constantly being abused...

What rights we are losing.... we shouldn't be....

Public areas are off limits for people that smoke (being this is just an example)...

There are places outside that aren't even considered a public area.... that people will complain and beat the tar outa you for smoking.... hell, when you in your own vehical... and your told to put out your smoke..... it's getting a bit sad.....

I don't smoke... but i understand the situation......

This is meerly an example.... there are things that we take for granted...... and they are slowly being taken away.... those that are actually feeling the effects.... are only starting to get riled... wait till everyone gets upset...by that time it'll be to late....

BWX · Dec 3, 2003, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KRN-Drak
This argument is pointless for you liberals btw. I've realized in the Political and Flamefest forums that about roughly 70-80% of the people that troll those forums live out in Texas or Minnesota and other low population hick states and love their guns. Stubborn republican bull heads that are living in their own state of mind. So don't bother guys. Just be content your not a moron.

Well me and my guns live in the safest city in the US-

http://www.morganquitno.com/safecity.htm

"Amherst, New York is on a winning streak. For the fourth consecutive year, the citizens of this upstate New York community can boast that they live in America’s Safest City. The honor will be announced in the new edition of City Crime Rankings, an annual reference book of crime statistics and rankings slated for publication in early December. The results of the tenth annual Safest City Award, which compares crime in 350 cities, were announced today by Morgan Quitno Press, a Lawrence, Kansas-based publishing and research company."

I guess guns don't kill, people kill after all.

digerati · Dec 3, 2003, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bird chest
The kuran says holy war is ok or Jihad and does not say kill infidels. The point of this is to spread the religion not kill every person who does not believe the religion. I am not saying this is good but it is vastly different from what you are saying. Nowhere in the kuran does it say women have to cover up either. But the US did pretty much the same thing to black people and we passed it off in religion during that time. So yes religion is a basis for a lot of conflict but is it not also a source for peace for some? I also pose the question that maybe these people would do these things anyways but just do it and use religion as their scape goat?

ji·had also je·had (noun) - A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels.

KRN-Drak · Dec 3, 2003, 03:49 AM

Ignorance is Bliss I guess.

digerati · Dec 3, 2003, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KRN-Drak
This argument is pointless for you liberals btw. I've realized in the Political and Flamefest forums that about roughly 70-80% of the people that troll those forums live out in Texas or Minnesota and other low population hick states and love their guns. Stubborn republican bull heads that are living in their own state of min