Israel should watch itself...

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 10:06 AM

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Originally posted by skinlab
he was assassinated, they dont want that to happen to their leaders.
the biggest terrorrists here are the israelis, they're the one who go into people's homes, rape their women, kill their children, and then burn their houses down. what's left for the palestinians? they have nothing to live for, a suicide attack gives them the feeling that they have contributed something to their cause. im not against it, i support it. they lose a couple homes, they kill a couple 'innocent' civilians, as if the people that were in those destroyed homes arent innocent, oh wait, they're palestinians, how can they be innocent, they are, after all, the terrorrists arent they?

Bull-fucking-shit. I'm tired of people portraying the Palestinians as hopeless, with no other choice other than to blow themselves and a bus full of Israel noncombatants. If that weretrue, and if the Palestinians truly have no hope, attacks wouldn't flare up when negotiations are being made, now would they?

I don't disagree with the Palestinian cause; I disagree with their methods. You can't fight that way. Period.

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by skinlab
he was assassinated, they dont want that to happen to their leaders.
the biggest terrorrists here are the israelis, they're the one who go into people's homes, rape their women, kill their children, and then burn their houses down. what's left for the palestinians? they have nothing to live for, a suicide attack gives them the feeling that they have contributed something to their cause. im not against it, i support it. they lose a couple homes, they kill a couple 'innocent' civilians, as if the people that were in those destroyed homes arent innocent, oh wait, they're palestinians, how can they be innocent, they are, after all, the terrorrists arent they?

If the Palestinians would stop illegally blowing up civilians, and switch to non-violent protest like the Indians did, they would have vast international support. But so long as they attack noncombatants as "protest" they will never win the hearts of anyone.

Yeti · Jul 11, 2002, 10:15 AM

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No, no, no, no, NO!

I don't care how upset you are, terrorist bombings are never right. Not in retaliation, not for freedom -- never. So long as the Palestinians continue to blow up buses and night-clubs full of civilians, they will never have international sympathy or legitimacy as a movement. They are not freedom fighters. Arafat said he would take care of Hamas.

When?

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Bull-****ing-shit. I'm tired of people portraying the Palestinians as hopeless, with no other choice other than to blow themselves and a bus full of Israel noncombatants. If that weretrue, and if the Palestinians truly have no hope, attacks wouldn't flare up when negotiations are being made, now would they?

Q.)Whats the difference between a Soldier and a "Non-Combatant"?
A.) One is holding a gun and the other isn't.

Q.) Whats the difference between an Israeli soldier and a Palestinian Terrorist?
A.)None. Both get support from the U.S. government.

Its like there is some big plot for all the non christians to kill each other off.

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 10:30 AM

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Q.) Whats the difference between an Israeli soldier and a Palestinian Terrorist?

Adherence to rules.

--

Geneva Convention

Article 3
1. Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely*, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

--

* If you're riding a bus, having a piece of pizza, or dancing at a night club, being killed by a bomb is not exactly humane.

Yeti · Jul 11, 2002, 10:40 AM

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Persons taking no active part in the hostilities....shall in all circumstances be treated humanely

A.)Look at the first page of this post and realize those are palestinians
and
B.) Give a copy of this to the *American* pilot who bombed the fuck out of a troop of practicing soldiers (Yeah that friendly fire incident i recall).

No one is in any position to critisize anyone else with regards to the Geneva convention.

(Oh yeah, well we did it once and they did it more....) - Murder by any other name would stink as bad.

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 10:54 AM

Yes, Yeti, atrocities have occured on both sides of the fence, but the Israeli military does not, as policy, target civilian noncombatants, while the fighting force of Palestine DOES! When are people going to realize that the Palestinians that are blowing shit up don't want peace -- they want Israel to be no more.

Yeti · Jul 11, 2002, 11:06 AM

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they want Israel to be no more.

I find that when people want something they want something. For instance i want all bad evil terrorists dead. But that ain't happenin.

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the Palestinians continue to blow up buses and night-clubs full of civilians

But i for one thing do not want any ethnic group dead .

I intend to argue to the death that there have been crimes committed by soldiers of every nation especially Israel and America. Terrorists will be charged for these crimes much more severely. There is no reason for that to be. When i see the Israeli soldier tied up in front of a firing squad and shot, then i will see the Palestinian terrorist go through the same.

And i don't really care who targets who, just who shot the bullet.

Thats my Opinion... so there (can't argue with that now can ya?

)

DallasStar · Jul 11, 2002, 11:08 AM

Since when was Israel adhering to rules? The UN asked Israel to retreat from Palestinian lands when it was first formed because they realized that it was a mistake to take away Palestinian homes. Did they retreat? NO! Did they adhere to rules? NO! And if the Israeli military doesn't target civilians, and the soldiers strictly follow those rules, how the fvck do you explain the pics I posted earlier? Those were even shown on your beloved biased media! The soldier knew what he was doing. That father and child were not just "caught in the middle". That soldier (and every other soldier) was ordered to kill every Palestinian in sight. And how will you go about explaining why Israel does not let Red Cross or any other organization come to sites of combat and take care of civilians? It obviously should be their number 1 priority to let such organizations in if they want to help civilians. Instead, they don't allow media to come in and they use that time to bury the dead civilians and act like nothing happened. Then, they go tell a bunch of bullshit to that idiot Bush and, being the gullible idiot that he is, he just makes speech after speech and some bs claims about how he's going to end terror everywhere.

So tell me Java, if killing innocent Paletinians; taking away their homes; killing their children; and raping their women isn't terrorism, then what is?

How would you feel if I just decided to take a quadrillion tanks and take over Hawaii or wherever you live and take away your home and then rape your mother and kill your father and brother and tell you that you are a terrorist?

Ijustwannaknow · Jul 11, 2002, 11:14 AM

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Originally posted by dallasstar
I agree 100%. (Thank GOD I'm not the only one on this forum who feels this way)
I duno why, but the world, for some reason, likes to ignore Israel's ethnic cleansing and always concentrate on the wrongs of the Palestinians.

here's another story:

Two innocent civilians (father and son) were at the wrong place and the wrong time. The Israeli soldiers were shooting. The father told them to spare his son and shoot him instead (keep in mind he's just an innocent civilian). The Israeli soldier, intrigued, decided to shoot the son first so that the father would see his son die, and then the soldier shot the father.

cool pictures

DallasStar · Jul 11, 2002, 11:42 AM

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Originally posted by Ijustwannaknow
cool pictures

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 11:48 AM

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Originally posted by Ijustwannaknow
cool pictures

WHAT THE FUCK, DUDE?

You're probably the most intollerably STUPID person on this whole forum!

Malus · Jul 11, 2002, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dallasstar
Since when was Israel adhering to rules? The UN asked Israel to retreat from Palestinian lands when it was first formed because they realized that it was a mistake to take away Palestinian homes. Did they retreat? NO! Did they adhere to rules? NO! And if the Israeli military doesn't target civilians, and the soldiers strictly follow those rules, how the fvck do you explain the pics I posted earlier? Those were even shown on your beloved biased media! The soldier knew what he was doing. That father and child were not just "caught in the middle". That soldier (and every other soldier) was ordered to kill every Palestinian in sight. And how will you go about explaining why Israel does not let Red Cross or any other organization come to sites of combat and take care of civilians? It obviously should be their number 1 priority to let such organizations in if they want to help civilians. Instead, they don't allow media to come in and they use that time to bury the dead civilians and act like nothing happened. Then, they go tell a bunch of bullshit to that idiot Bush and, being the gullible idiot that he is, he just makes speech after speech and some bs claims about how he's going to end terror everywhere.

So tell me Java, if killing innocent Paletinians; taking away their homes; killing their children; and raping their women isn't terrorism, then what is?

How would you feel if I just decided to take a quadrillion tanks and take over Hawaii or wherever you live and take away your home and then rape your mother and kill your father and brother and tell you that you are a terrorist?

Seriously, why would anyone want to listen to the UN.

Anyway, I don't think the policy of the Israeli military is to "take away their homes, kill their children, and rape their women." Usually, there is a bunch of Palestinians causing trouble, so the army comes in and just takes out anyone. For that poor father and his son, they just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

By the way, Bush is not a gullible idiot, or an idiot for that matter. No offense, but I bet he knows a lot more than you do. You assume that he is stupid because of his poor speaking skills and awkward statements. To me, however. he just seems like the type of guy who gets nervous and says something completely stupid, heck, I do it all the time when I make speeches. I'm sure he knows a lot about what is going on over there, probably a lot more than the media does. If I were you, I'd start reading my newspaper everyday, since there is usually an article about an attack against Israel like once a week. It's pretty common.

I think your Hawaii analogy isn't a very good one. The Israeli army doesn't just randomly slaughter people. If there is a terrorist attack, they move in and try to stop it any way they can. If you look suspicious, you will most likely get killed. It's a shame, but I'm sure the people understand that the army doesn't mind killing two Palestinians after fifty Israelis just died. Can you really blame them? They let their anger get the best of them, just like you do when you try and make an argument. Describing emotions is a bad way to argue.

Malus · Jul 11, 2002, 12:06 PM

Oh yeah, and preach it JavaFox!

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 12:06 PM

Firstly, dallasstar, if we are to have a decent, fair, and thoughful conversation on this subject, you are going to have to refrain from assuming things. "My beloved biased media"? Really, dallasstar? What news do I watch, and what paper do I read? Do you know? Maybe I only watch Al Jazeera. I actually got that channel for a while. So, please, make arguments, but leave assumptions out of it because, as they say, they make an ass out of u and me.

Quote:

Originally posted by dallasstar
Since when was Israel adhering to rules? The UN asked Israel to retreat from Palestinian lands when it was first formed because they realized that it was a mistake to take away Palestinian homes. Did they retreat? NO! Did they adhere to rules? NO! And if the Israeli military doesn't target civilians, and the soldiers strictly follow those rules, how the fvck do you explain the pics I posted earlier? Those were even shown on your beloved biased media! The soldier knew what he was doing. That father and child were not just "caught in the middle". That soldier (and every other soldier) was ordered to kill every Palestinian in sight.

Nobody said that Israel hasn't committed atrocities. Nobody said there hasn't been collateral damage. Shit, I didn't even say anything nice about Israel. I do not doubt that the incident you detailed is true, and that shocks and disturbs me to my very core. It makes me fucking sick that we have people like Ijustwannaknow commenting "cool pics" -- that's human suffering! You don't laugh at that. And regardless of what the Palestinians are standing for, fighting for, or believe in, no innocent deserves to get gunned down. I'm sorry if I conveyed that I did not care, because I care about people immensely.

But, dallasstar, try to see.

The Israelis have done horrible things, but if you analyze their military movements, I think you'll see that the majority of them retaliatory. Citizens get killed. Sometimes by mistake, sometimes by accident, but the policy of Israel is not to kill civilians, but to protect itself. No leader in Israel has said "Kill them indiscrimately!" It is not to say that innocents do not get killed, but that is not the policy of the country.

The policy of Palestine's fighting force, though, is to attack anyone. Do you agree with their methods? I have no problem with someone fighting for a cause, even violently. The Palestinians have a fair claim on Israeli land, but they can't try to irradicate Israel by any means! You aren't considered a freedom fighter when you kill non-military people. You are not a legitimate movement.

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So tell me Java, if killing innocent Paletinians; taking away their homes; killing their children; and raping their women isn't terrorism, then what is?

You tell ME, dallas', if your brother was killed in a suicide bombing because some crazy Texas Successionists blew up a McDonalds he was eating in, wouldn't you think it was terrorism?

Fight the military, not the people.

~~Sourcer_2002~~ · Jul 11, 2002, 12:06 PM

[qoute] cool picture [/qoute]

what the hell is worng with you?

DallasStar · Jul 11, 2002, 12:14 PM

Okay guys, whatever you say. I stand by what I said. For the sake of not starting a Flame War, you can now just pretend I don't exist in this thread. Happy? Okay now, go ahead and preach whatever BS you want. There have been over twice as many palestinians killed than israelis, so before you go making bs claims about "because 50 israelis die, israel kills 2 palestinians", I suggest you get your facts straight.

JavaFox · Jul 11, 2002, 12:21 PM

Nobody is interested in starting a flame war. I like debate. My g/f and I have this argument all the time.

You have some good points. I did not know that the Red Cross didn't operate in Israel and that, as far as I know, is a violation of the Geneva Conventions as well.

If you want to start a debate, you need to be willing to learn. If you want to throw your hands up and leave, that's fine, but I promise that you'll get no flames in this thread from me.

I conceded that I thought the Palestinians do have a legitimate claim on Israel's land and that I only disagree with their methods of fighting. Do you agree? Is it Israel's sole goal to kill Palestinians? Surely you don't believe that. Israelis do not want to irradicate the Palestinians, regardless of what some crazy, whack-ass soldiers do.

Tell me where I've been bullshitting, dallas, and I'll see if I can clear something up. Maybe you can teach me something, and maybe you can learn something from me, and we'll both be better people because of it.

Malus · Jul 11, 2002, 12:26 PM

Since when have more Palestinians died than Israelis? AFAIK, that's a load of bullshit. The Israeli Army isn't constantly killing people. They usally kill Palestinians after the Palestinians make a suicide bombing or shoot at a bunch of civilians. Yes, Palestinians do get killed, but they take a lot more innocent people with them when they die.

Malus · Jul 11, 2002, 12:29 PM

If you can point me to factual evidence that suggest that more Palestinians are killed, the maybe I'll concede my argument. You must back up your evidence if you want us to agree with your points. If you post evidence on this I will gladly read it and see the other side. However, be prepared for a bombardment of evidence supporting my views.

DallasStar · Jul 11, 2002, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JavaFox
Nobody is interested in starting a flame war. I like debate. My g/f and I have this argument all the time.

You have some good points. I did not know that the Red Cross didn't operate in Israel and that, as far as I know, is a violation of the Geneva Conventions as well.

If you want to start a debate, you need to be willing to learn. If you want to throw your hands up and leave, that's fine, but I promise that you'll get no flames in this thread from me.

I conceded that I thought the Palestinians do have a legitimate claim on Israel's land and that I only disagree with their methods of fighting. Do you agree? Is it Israel's sole goal to kill Palestinians? Surely you don't believe that. Israelis do not want to irradicate the Palestinians, regardless of what some crazy, whack-ass soldiers do.

Tell me where I've been bullshitting, dallas, and I'll see if I can clear something up. Maybe you can teach me something, and maybe you can learn something from me, and we'll both be better people because of it.

Sorry man, I misinterpreted what you said. For a while, I was thinking that you meant that Israel is doing no wrong. If you aknowledge that Israel's occupation is wrong and you think that the Palestinian suicide bombings are wrong.... then we shouldn't be arguing because we obviously feel the same way

. Sorry, I'll try to be less ignorant next time.

(no sarcasm intended)

DallasStar · Jul 11, 2002, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Malus
If you can point me to factual evidence that suggest that more Palestinians are killed, the maybe I'll concede my argument. You must back up your evidence if you want us to agree with your points. If you post evidence on this I will gladly read it and see the other side. However, be prepared for a bombardment of evidence supporting my views.

Man, you can't expect me to have a webpage all found out for everything I say. From what I know, everything I said is true. I don't feel like digging through months and months of CNN to find some article just so I can satisfy YOU.

Malus · Jul 11, 2002, 08:01 PM

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Originally posted by dallasstar
Man, you can't expect me to have a webpage all found out for everything I say. From what I know, everything I said is true. I don't feel like digging through months and months of CNN to find some article just so I can satisfy YOU.

You are just assuming what you think is right. Don't do that.

I don't expect you to find it all on one page. It's not supposed to be easy.