Roe v. Wade -- Overturned?!

Falstaff · Jun 26, 2003, 08:45 AM

even in these times, undesirable births as well as those of incest, rape, and physical defects are often left to die, disposed of like so much animal meat, or simply euthenized......because of a countries laws, culture and religous beliefs....

jscodner · Jun 29, 2003, 01:48 AM

The Human Genome Project is done. I am 36, a vegan, adopted, a male, abstinent, and legally blind due to a very rare(234 people worldwide) progressive X-linked recessive genetic condition. This happened at conception. My adopted sister's, 4 years younger, mom walked into an abortion clinic, and then walked out by choice. Both of our moms and fathers made choices.

My birth mother, whom I just reunited with last year, had me at 15. I am her only child, as she was a victim of the IUD in 1973. At 50, a year prior to us reuniting, she wanted to have invitro fertilization, but menapause's time had come. Several of my cousins have this conditon as well, however I was the only one to be diagnosed properly.

I am the oldest of four families in my generation, and thus, the patriarch of all four. Only males, those of us with a Y chromosome, have it expressed, and females carry it. It skips a generation. The mother carries it, and the father determines whether boy, or girl. This all occurring at the momment of conception, no gray areas. This is in the first 1% of the 30,000+ genes we posess to be defined, and one of the first on the X chromosome, as we only know what 6 out of the 720 do, we have gained the wisdom to SEE. DNA's helix is defined folks.

We are more than 50% related to all green terrestrial life, and an earthworm is less related then all of them. 99% the same as a chimp, and 97% of a rat. We are ALL responsable for our kins fate, regardless of our gender. As soon as we acknowledge our participation in life's cycle, we will find hapiness, not just pursue it.

Organic life began millions of years ago here on this globe, and has been a continuum. Only man's ego has seperated mankind from ourselves. All of us here looked similar to the previously posted pics, learn to SEE oneself in all lifeforms, then maybe mankind will live to SEE the next generations supported, not aborted. Take this from a blind Man whose DNA is being positionally cloned against his will for others benefit with hair halfway down his back, as a little whimsy of A Brief history of Life.

Miss "Roe" has had to wade in her own discourse for far too long. Thank goodness she finally figured out what seperation of the sexes has done. To Fornicate Under Carnal Knowledge is how we can presently say, we all got here. Take the next step to Free Universal Creations Knowledge, and live past the Roes and wade in the truth that we are all chiidren and all one life.

Falstaff · Jun 29, 2003, 06:49 AM

Life is precious, the growing contempt for life by men and women who can choose whether to concieve or not begs the question, is American society becoming corrupt, and our value system emploding? I believe when regard the issues of abortion and sexual morality without concern for the possibility of unwanted pregnancy, we are becoming dishonest.
I still believe that the whole crux of the issue stems from a lack of sexual education in the home. The schools can only teach the scientific aspect of sexual education, it is up to parents and guardians to instill a sense of responsibility to children. Our bodies are our temples, and we must bear responsibility for what we do to the magnificent creation he has given us....but that is my view.
Our society leans heaviliy on medical science to remedy our problems for us, but it is really up to us to choose how we live our lives and what goals we want to achieve. If we engage in sexual activity that creates a child or children, we should own up to our responsibilities and make value laden choices.

jscodner · Jun 29, 2003, 07:37 AM

The problem stems from our own sense of existance. We are taught I think, therefore I am, in the west. This contradicts eastern thought, which all the great World religions stem from, where I am, implying existance, comes first, then thought. For example, "I am the way," doesn't even allow self centered thinking to enter the picture. In the east, and in the West's own ideas of creation, substance must exist before thoughts have a medium for expression. Take DriverHeaven here for instance, without the silicon pathways, and organic bodies being fed by being first, the idea of this thought could not be expressed.

As I stated previously, we now know our relationship to all organic life on earth through DNA's unfolding. It is now scientifically arguable that to spend time thinking about killing anything more than 50% related to onesself is pre-meditated murder. More than 66%, and we're in the moral majority. These are the basic substances of democracy for all life, as we acknowledge it.

Diatomes, ancient silicon life, predates all organic life by several million years. Yet here we are with silicon and wire neural networks, once again under our fingers, and most are playing games of Me, Me, Me. You are correct sir, it is all of our responsability to uphold all life as precious, no matter how the view. Sex is also a choice, so is cloning, and how one wades through it all as we Roe, Roe, Roe the boat gently down the stream.

Falstaff · Jun 29, 2003, 08:15 AM

I realized long ago, based on my own christian upbringing and the popular scientific views on evolution and creation, that the sum of all creation cannot be reduced merely to the text in books of worship. I spent two years in college attempting to gain an interest in geology, and the knowing the age of the earth and its components that we walk on every day. I have come to one conclusion that raised the hackles on my parents neck, but nonetheless I believe it.
Based on scientific evidence, which is inherently flawed, the world is old, very very old, and it existed before the fossil evidence of life. Anything that existed more than 2 billion years ago has been returned to the mantle and recycled. What we know of life, exists in layers of rock, anchient trapped gases and what we can deduce from this. We can accurately date all of it to a certain degree, and yet we still have to rearrange our thinking of how each component fits into place, and discard or modify various aspects of popular theory. Children are taught the theory of evolutuion at school and it is widely accepted the world over. What I believe schools fail to teach is the notion that extinction is inevitable. That all species of living things must evolve, change or adapt or die. We believe that all of the species are trapped on the surface of the earth with the exception of human beings. Eventually we will travel beyond the atmosphere routinely to colonise space and extend the boundries of human kind....that is....if we don't become extinct ourselves..It is entirely possible that within the next 100 years, we ourselves could become extinct..

rogeld · Jun 29, 2003, 09:42 AM

Having read through this thread, it seems to be once again the hot topic of discussion that can not and should not be avoided. Many excellent points have been made as well as a few poor ones, but surprising enough, the former outnumber the latter and thus I feel compelled to at least add something a bit constructive to the discussion.

This is a touchy subject to many but so many of the problems with abortion wouldn't exist if one simple choice was made...the choice for abstinence. I know, radical decision, huh? Really, however, if you can avoid becoming pregnant or making another pregnant, than there is no choice needed beyond the point to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Some may argue 'But I enjoy sex, it is a part of human life' and that is a load of horseshit. There is absolutely no guarantee that you should have intercourse with another human being and if you absolutely can't keep your legs together or you have to let out the purple helmet warrior, then there are contraceptives which have a high enough rate of success if used properly that just about all unwanted pregnancies can be avoided. Should abortion be used as another firm of birth control? Hell no, you made the choice to have sex without protection or to have sex at all, you made an adult choice and now have to be an adult and follow through.

Bottom line is: The bigger issue is not what to do with an unwanted pregnancy, but how one can be prevented in the first place. Children are a gift that we give the world to further populate it, but let us not be so frivolous with them. If you can't abstain from intercourse, then at least wear some protection for not only your own safety but also to avoid becoming another teenage mother or being a father at 16.

Note: I do not have children of my own but I have seen many close friends go through with pregnancy and watched their lives crumble around them just because they couldn't keep their legs together or keep it in their pants.

Falstaff · Jun 29, 2003, 10:19 AM

This is the core of my argument, and the message my children are getting as well. Sexual behaviour is just like any other and should be responsible and safe. I am not going to reveal my position about other sexual issues save for this. Risky lifestyles and risky behaviour are only going to perpetuate sexually transmitted disease, unwanted pregnancies and the objectification of women and children as merely sexual toys, and continue to be a growing problem in the internet and information age.
Without proper education and values laden teaching, young men and women will exploit each other with greater emphasis on instant gratification. I am not a prude, but I can't ignore the new lifestyles that music industry is promoting to sell their product, that dehumanizes and objectifies women and children and puts family values in question for the promise of a quick dollar and sexual gratification. The fabric of our society is unravelling and the consequences of unwanted pregnancy are midigated by a welfare system that seems to support a productive lifestyle of unemployed men and women continuing to procreate and dump their progeny upon all of us to support and carry until adulthood.
I agree it is a complicated issue(s), but I believe it all begins at home, with the children and their education through adulthood.
I believe that the entertainment industry, pornography, and the internet are symptoms of a problem, I am not against regulation and education, but I am tired of the perpetuation of the myth that the aforementioned are not harmful. If we don't restrict access by children to adult oriented material, and provide meaningful education regarding sexual activity, alternative lifestyles, drug abuse and the impact of crimes against children and women our society will continue it's downward spiral in the abyss.

jscodner · Jun 29, 2003, 10:25 AM

Tesla realized that life existed in harmonic cycles, and respecting alternating currents of life's patterns became his life's work. one which allows us to communicate life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So did Jimi, Mozart, and Pythagorus. There is 2500 years of life in one sentence. Einstein relized relativity existed he didn't create it by choice. As I always say, I don't pretend to know anything, that's how I know something.

Labels, and speciesization are humankind's creation. Babies are Life, Fungus is Life, Arcaea are life, and The Dead are alive. I can listen, and watch, Jimi on this same little box I am pounding this out on, and thus he lives. I can pick up my twelve-string and sing Dylan's hymn that Jimi brught to harmonic convergence, or go see the originator of the words playing this week.

I, too, was raised in a christian environ, but knew from the momment I could understand English I came from what western family structure deemed another family, and thus better respect all ideas of life if I could ever hope to respect my own 4 parents.

Sure enough, my birth mom had been a witch, and a christian. Responsability to respect all life, not just on earth, but within life's globe is what is, and shall ever be, truth. I see 5% of the average human, and my other senses definately are more tuned than the average Wade, or Roe. Does that make me less, or more human? Maybe, just an earthling?

We have just in the last 5 years become Creators of what we deem new lifeforms through genetic manipulation. My DNA is being used for that as we type. Are the cells growing in the blender me, or someone else? They are being studied because of my particular makeup, and are unique to me. It took my blood. What is this research being used for? To create new viruses to implant in otherwise healthy humans to substitute "healthy" genes for medically deemed inferior ones. I have the same genes in my little toe as my eye, if only they could see.

I even take responsability for me as aa sperm, and egg being united to cause such interest. We are merely the first generation to see these things up close, and personal. We better take it personally, or human language will cease to exist, not life. This whole universe is alive!

How did I reunite with my original womb? By typing 4 lines on this keyboard, and hitting enter 35 years after my conception. The evolution of this anomoly I possess is around 400 years ago, and thus within recorded history. Rarity, that comes from the Renaissance, and is evolutionarily mappable. This DNA's child can see mankinds deemed anomoly's helix twisting back 400 years by being adopted by others, and learning to view the rainbow of life, and step out of the darkness created by seperation into gray areas.

I am here in Driverheaven, because I co-exist with our silicon friends without whom I can barely even read. They talk to me, and I to them, although this I am tactilely typing. They are my main accessability aids, as they are to Mr. Hawking.

Nvidia, ATI, MS, IBM, Unix, cobal, pascal, C, or CE I can't survive well without all their lives coexisting alongside, and within me. No offense, but most here would probably not even recognize the card punch cards that existed at the time of Roe V Wade that evolutionarily makes this possible, any better than they see themselves as "clumps of cells" and recognize themselves as related.

Out of sight, out of mind. To be, or not to be? E=mc² Relatively speaking, "we are one, we are starshine, I am yours, and you are mine. We are song, we are children, I am truth, and you are zen. All are dark and light as rainbows, one's damned up and the rest just flows. A child's spark of unknowing grows, least ones cry the best just knows.", myself in a song I wrote called "Children".

rogeld · Jun 29, 2003, 01:12 PM

Could you perhaps edit that monstrous paragraph to be a little more legible? It makes little enough sense as it is being all combined up like that.

digerati · Jun 29, 2003, 03:08 PM

This is where things get difficult. There are so many ways to approach the problem, as abortion is used as a birth control. My mom had a pretty natural form of birth control, she's been having unprotected sex ever since before my birth as they told her she could never get pregnant. Well here I am. And my 4 other could have been brothers and sisters aren't. I don't harbor any ill feelings toward her, we have had to pretty much pinch the penny to stay up here in the suburbs. I didn't even get a computer til my 3rd year living here, and the only upgrades I get are during birthdays and christmas, so it's pretty much a 5 to 6 month cycle. But if my mom had kept those children, we would still be living in downtown hollywood with the horrible schools and the really high crimerate. One of my moms friends down the block was raped! My mom slept with a gun by her bed until we moved from there.

Have any of you seen the movie Kids? That lifestyle isn't too uncommon. How do I know? Not from personal experience, but from being related to those who have. Namely my brother and my father.

I tried talking to my brother about it one time. He had the very simplistic view of I wanted to, she wanted to, we did.

There are pretty much a bazillion different types of birth control. Both sides will argue in the point of simplistic it feels better without. But none of them even practice the art of pulling art, it isn't a sure fire way at all but it sure as hell doesn't hurt.

I am willing to bet that the majority of aboritons come in poorer areas. Why? A billion different reasons. So what're we supposed to do? Either we don't too anything or we do too much. You can't solve this problem without going too far. Mostly everyone knows about birth control, it's even taught in school. It's just being ignored. So unless we get bad like China did and only allow so many children per family, or find a way to regulate sex, we can't do too much.

But if you do want to help the ignoring problem, get RID OF FECKING MTV. I've never EVER seen a worst channel than that! Keep the playboy channel, at least they try to practice safe sex in their porn. But MTV is just glorified, sexified crap! Get rid of that glamour magazine how to pleasure your boyfriend/girlfriend crap. But of course you will get the usual against freedom of speech and it will be. So yes things will be taken too far. I don't think that when they wrote the constitution they could possibly account for the way things are today. They couldn't possibly imagine televisions, magazines, and the lack of guidance from parents. Ah yes...the parents. Who leave off for work and leave their kids in front of the tv as a babysitter yet bltch and moan when their children become sluts. So who're they going to blame? The friends, the tv, the magazines. As they did contribute, but it is the parents fault.

I do not approve of having kids, then leaving them in daycare all day while you go off to work. Or leave them in front of the tv like I was. Like my cousins were. 1 of them had an abortion and she's 15, the elder cousin who's a male had to pay for 2. They're overly rich. Each of them got new cars for their 15th birthdays, before they got their permits even. The female has subscriptions to almost all those glamour and cosmopolitan magazines. And they both know about birth control, it's just ignored.

So how far will we push things? Censorship? Regulation? Sure the results would probably be good in the begining. But the snowball effect could be disastrous.

Falstaff · Jun 29, 2003, 08:26 PM

that the more we try to seperate ourselves from animals the more difficult it is to find our humanity..

digerati · Jun 30, 2003, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
that the more we try to seperate ourselves from animals the more difficult it is to find our humanity..

People need the justification that they're living their life to the fullest unlike animals. And what's the fullest to them? Wild mating. Yeah, you'd never see a dog doing that.

Falstaff · Jun 30, 2003, 08:25 PM

I am not against mating....but there ought to be more love in this world....alot more love.

jscodner · Jul 1, 2003, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rogeld
Could you perhaps edit that monstrous paragraph to be a little more legible? It makes little enough sense as it is being all combined up like that.

...that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all else around is dark.

Is that better? I should have followed my own advice, and recognized that takin' a piss is the end of a sentence in life, and number 2 the end of a paragraph. Hee, Hee!

The true monstrousity I was trying to convey is that most of the close to 7 billion people on this beautiful globe are choosing to see themselves as seperate individual beings, as opposed to one unified greater whole. Scientificly, if we are what we eat, then we are stars. In this Info Age, we are merely gaining knowledge. Practice brings wisdom. Words written by adoption can be edited, or aborted; not however, the freedom of well born speech.

DNA has been defined for not only ourselves, but all organic life. This isn't just my musing, or something I chose, but fact. However, due to the knowledge of my particular body's position in life being in the 1st 1% of humanity to be deemed genetically defective, a condition defined to occur at conception, I am celebate.

The choice is all of ours. Those "clumps of cells" seen earlier in this thread of truth are larger than the 2mm of cells it took for each of us to see them, and still we don't see. It took sound, the sonogram, to make them visible to most as even being worth contemplating as life. Electricity is the conduit to all of this communication of ourselves. DNA is our code. Love is the embracing of all life from a particular one's view. To abort our prodigy, or simplify life with death, kills our future.

Give, live, and love life. It's our only way we have and will survive. There is one commonality that weaves itself in and out of this helixes thread. How does it benefit me? The real answer lies in how much does one include in the definition of me. I include all life as WE know it, and as far as I can tell I am merely a "clump of cells" in this universe filled with life. "Roe" and "Wade" are just made up names. If "and" is inserted instead of "verses", maybe the fiction of seperatism in abortion can become a foundation for the reality of the conception of love in all our birth.

I am, therfore, I think.

Falstaff · Jul 1, 2003, 08:43 AM

I think I understand what your saying..

jscodner · Jul 2, 2003, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
I think I understand what your saying..

You got it bro! It takes being to think. If all of us think first, one must realize it took millions of years for us to have any thought to begin with. To base our existence, and rights of life off fictional characters ie. Roe, is an insult to our reality, and that of all our ancestors glorious reality. Not until the real Norma(Roe) took 30 years of reflection, and sides with 1000 other of the XX sex does a chance at reconciliation to the unborn truth rear it's head.

Love conquers all!

merry · Jul 3, 2003, 06:32 AM

I doubt therefore I think
I think therefore I am
I am, therefore God is (exists)

Descartes didn't imply that "I" don't exist without thinking, but merely used doubt (and consequently thought) to guarantee (or prove) the existence of the subject. "I think" is an argument, not an act of creation. The final point is to prove the "objective" existence of the being (God), starting at the "subjective" perception of the self.

But, in a sense, you are right to say We are taught I think, therefore I am, in the west, as most people only consider the middle sentence of the construct.

Falstaff · Jul 3, 2003, 08:17 AM

the argument for the duality of man?

jscodner · Jul 3, 2003, 05:24 PM

Yes, that is a part of the partially complete thought of Descartes. That was my point completeness has been lost in context. Descartes' thought is used as the basis of proving the first laws of physics, as time must be proven to have a dimension B4 thought can have basis a moment must be defined. Physics only exists from the perspective of the observer.

For humans, a moment is defined as 1/30th of a second. That is the problem, not all humans think at 30hz. The physical substrate exists prior to humanity, or any individuals perception. We don't percieve "clumps of cells" until after they multiply, and that doesn't happen until after at least 1/30th sec. has elapsed.

In Descartes day Thought happened now, and yet no thought occuring really happens until later. Descartes got it backwards. it truly is I am, therefore I think. I didn't mis-quote, I quoted myself. The great all is truly nameless in form, because it takes more than one point in time to communicate anything. One must get down to the moment of conception, after the fact. In other words, duality, multiplicity, and singularity supercede man's thought. XX is, and XY is; therefore duality is Man. I am XY; therefore I think XX is different. It is one in the same, Roe and Wade, you and I, and we are a child.

jscodner · Jul 4, 2003, 08:21 AM

Independance 4 all XXs and XYs on the 4th, unite in unborn freedom's celebration of DNA's singularity ! Peace 4 all !

Falstaff · Jul 4, 2003, 11:57 PM

whether we evolved from primordial ooze or fashioned molecule by molecule through eons to become what we are now, I insist that a supreme power was the architect for this world and perhaps worlds just like it. And that all life is part of a fabric or celestial order as much as planets and stars are parts of the heavens.
And the search for the secrets of creation often take mankind down dangerous and arrogant pathes towards the real truth, that mankind with all it's talent, skills and intuition, pale in comparison to what the universe is.
And that when mankind attempts to modify, disrupt or halt the process of life, it must ask of itself one question, has mankind become greater than it's perception of the creator, is mankind becoming the creator, is mankind seeking God.
Surely the Creator exists, and we are not the mere consequence of random collisions of protiens and enzymes and amino acids...
Mankind is part of the universe and even the tiniest changes made in the paths that all species take, including our own, is like a ripple in a great pond.....they radiate outward, but eventually return....
What keeps this in check? surely there is a divine mechanism that defies human explanation, and has no analogy in this deminsion of existance and understanding.
Why does life always find a way, and are we no different than species that did not survive extinctions or more like species that did, why does life endure, why do we adapt, why do we seek knowlege.
Have we become so great and so powerful in our science that we ignore the beliefs that sustained our species till now..
All that mankind has accomplished till now is a tiny sliver of an encrement of time along the great geological timeline of the universe, if we destroy ourselves, then our passing would go unnoticed?
I believe that we have the power to destory ourselves, but I also believe we have souls and a conscience and we have the power to preserve ourselves.
Every life can make a difference, and every human life is finite, that defines our humanity.
I wonder, if our species is at a critical apogee, an arc in our existance, when we can selectively modify our DNA, determine our own destiny by careful selection, if we are not foretelling the future for all of us.
No doubt every abortion has a consequence, whether it is spontenous or precipitated by our hands..

reno · Aug 7, 2003, 11:40 AM

Okay, easy rules for all.

A woman should be able to make her own choice, but irresponsibility should not be promoted. If the child is conceived through unprotected, consentual sex...then the mother should be FORCED to have the child (unless it's life or death). Any form of rape, the woman should be able to abort it AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Protected consentual sex (birth control, depo, condom) resulting in pregnancy should be given a choice within the first trimester.

Simple as that.

By the way, if God is all powerful, he would not have let lowly humans develop the "technique" to abort fetuses. A true thiest would only believe we're as powerful as our diety LETS us get. To think otherwise is just blind hubris.

Oh, and another thing, since when did the right to control our bodies cease to be ours? Next courts will tell us we can't have sex until marriage...then only when we try to concieve a child...then the child must be brought up with a certain set of moral...do you want the state to start taking away your rights to your body?

JavaFox · Aug 7, 2003, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by reno
A woman should be able to make her own choice, but irresponsibility should not be promoted. If the child is conceived through unprotected, consentual sex...then the mother should be FORCED to have the child (unless it's life or death). Any form of rape, the woman should be able to abort it AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Protected consentual sex (birth control, depo, condom) resulting in pregnancy should be given a choice within the first trimester.

You make a reasonable argument, I think, but it isn't legally viable at all. Are we going to clog up our legal systems with trials for women to show whether or not their sex was irresponsible or not?

reno · Aug 7, 2003, 12:36 PM

And to reply to some of these posts.

Schools are not the place for kids to be learning about morals, and the music industry or television are not responsible for the lack thereof...guess who's fault it is?

Parents.

Like ^-^ said, parents squeeze out a kid, plunk them down in front of the television and/or ship them off to day"care" for 8 hours...expecting to come home to a well adjusted child. Bull! The only reason ANYONE wants "morals" and "values" taught in the classroom is because they're too lazy to teach their own kids.

Every parents first priority should be to raising their children...if you can't raise a child, don't make one! My morals I'll teach everyone is that one parent should be around the child at all times until at least age 3 or 4...a dad that works nights, mom days...mom stays at home...dad stays at home....whatever. Parents should teach their children morals and values, schools should teach math and language.

/end rant

reno · Aug 7, 2003, 12:40 PM

Alright, for the sake of time constraints in my thinking processes...to revise the 'protected' rule, a woman must be confirmed to be on a form of birth control, depo, pills, norplant, what have you. There are records of perscriptions and such, and hell, even simple blood tests can find elevated levels of progestin after weeks, sometimes months.

To summarize, the clinic does a blood test...positive for birth control? Able to abort. Negative? Not able.

Although, me wonders how viable that could be, but at least it's a starting point. Our courts are already tied up with small claims and petty infractions anyway...but I can't think of a valid argument for my side of the story yet...processing...

Jun 26, 2003, 08:45 AM	#31
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 18,137 Rep Power: 131	You know even in these times, undesirable births as well as those of incest, rape, and physical defects are often left to die, disposed of like so much animal meat, or simply euthenized......because of a countries laws, culture and religous beliefs.... __________________ The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe.

Jun 29, 2003, 01:48 AM	#32
jscodner DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 25 Rep Power: 0	Love life, which death is a part of. The Human Genome Project is done. I am 36, a vegan, adopted, a male, abstinent, and legally blind due to a very rare(234 people worldwide) progressive X-linked recessive genetic condition. This happened at conception. My adopted sister's, 4 years younger, mom walked into an abortion clinic, and then walked out by choice. Both of our moms and fathers made choices. My birth mother, whom I just reunited with last year, had me at 15. I am her only child, as she was a victim of the IUD in 1973. At 50, a year prior to us reuniting, she wanted to have invitro fertilization, but menapause's time had come. Several of my cousins have this conditon as well, however I was the only one to be diagnosed properly. I am the oldest of four families in my generation, and thus, the patriarch of all four. Only males, those of us with a Y chromosome, have it expressed, and females carry it. It skips a generation. The mother carries it, and the father determines whether boy, or girl. This all occurring at the momment of conception, no gray areas. This is in the first 1% of the 30,000+ genes we posess to be defined, and one of the first on the X chromosome, as we only know what 6 out of the 720 do, we have gained the wisdom to SEE. DNA's helix is defined folks. We are more than 50% related to all green terrestrial life, and an earthworm is less related then all of them. 99% the same as a chimp, and 97% of a rat. We are ALL responsable for our kins fate, regardless of our gender. As soon as we acknowledge our participation in life's cycle, we will find hapiness, not just pursue it. Organic life began millions of years ago here on this globe, and has been a continuum. Only man's ego has seperated mankind from ourselves. All of us here looked similar to the previously posted pics, learn to SEE oneself in all lifeforms, then maybe mankind will live to SEE the next generations supported, not aborted. Take this from a blind Man whose DNA is being positionally cloned against his will for others benefit with hair halfway down his back, as a little whimsy of A Brief history of Life. Miss "Roe" has had to wade in her own discourse for far too long. Thank goodness she finally figured out what seperation of the sexes has done. To Fornicate Under Carnal Knowledge is how we can presently say, we all got here. Take the next step to Free Universal Creations Knowledge, and live past the Roes and wade in the truth that we are all chiidren and all one life. __________________ Through the Harmony and Peace of Love and Unity, John Last edited by jscodner; Jul 1, 2003 at 06:14 AM.

Jun 29, 2003, 06:49 AM	#33
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 18,137 Rep Power: 131	Life is precious, the growing contempt for life by men and women who can choose whether to concieve or not begs the question, is American society becoming corrupt, and our value system emploding? I believe when regard the issues of abortion and sexual morality without concern for the possibility of unwanted pregnancy, we are becoming dishonest. I still believe that the whole crux of the issue stems from a lack of sexual education in the home. The schools can only teach the scientific aspect of sexual education, it is up to parents and guardians to instill a sense of responsibility to children. Our bodies are our temples, and we must bear responsibility for what we do to the magnificent creation he has given us....but that is my view. Our society leans heaviliy on medical science to remedy our problems for us, but it is really up to us to choose how we live our lives and what goals we want to achieve. If we engage in sexual activity that creates a child or children, we should own up to our responsibilities and make value laden choices. __________________ The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe.

Jun 29, 2003, 07:37 AM	#34
jscodner DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 25 Rep Power: 0	And the wind began to howl.. The problem stems from our own sense of existance. We are taught I think, therefore I am, in the west. This contradicts eastern thought, which all the great World religions stem from, where I am, implying existance, comes first, then thought. For example, "I am the way," doesn't even allow self centered thinking to enter the picture. In the east, and in the West's own ideas of creation, substance must exist before thoughts have a medium for expression. Take DriverHeaven here for instance, without the silicon pathways, and organic bodies being fed by being first, the idea of this thought could not be expressed. As I stated previously, we now know our relationship to all organic life on earth through DNA's unfolding. It is now scientifically arguable that to spend time thinking about killing anything more than 50% related to onesself is pre-meditated murder. More than 66%, and we're in the moral majority. These are the basic substances of democracy for all life, as we acknowledge it. Diatomes, ancient silicon life, predates all organic life by several million years. Yet here we are with silicon and wire neural networks, once again under our fingers, and most are playing games of Me, Me, Me. You are correct sir, it is all of our responsability to uphold all life as precious, no matter how the view. Sex is also a choice, so is cloning, and how one wades through it all as we Roe, Roe, Roe the boat gently down the stream. __________________ Through the Harmony and Peace of Love and Unity, John Last edited by jscodner; Jul 1, 2003 at 06:05 AM.

Jun 29, 2003, 08:15 AM	#35
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 18,137 Rep Power: 131	As the world gets smaller I realized long ago, based on my own christian upbringing and the popular scientific views on evolution and creation, that the sum of all creation cannot be reduced merely to the text in books of worship. I spent two years in college attempting to gain an interest in geology, and the knowing the age of the earth and its components that we walk on every day. I have come to one conclusion that raised the hackles on my parents neck, but nonetheless I believe it. Based on scientific evidence, which is inherently flawed, the world is old, very very old, and it existed before the fossil evidence of life. Anything that existed more than 2 billion years ago has been returned to the mantle and recycled. What we know of life, exists in layers of rock, anchient trapped gases and what we can deduce from this. We can accurately date all of it to a certain degree, and yet we still have to rearrange our thinking of how each component fits into place, and discard or modify various aspects of popular theory. Children are taught the theory of evolutuion at school and it is widely accepted the world over. What I believe schools fail to teach is the notion that extinction is inevitable. That all species of living things must evolve, change or adapt or die. We believe that all of the species are trapped on the surface of the earth with the exception of human beings. Eventually we will travel beyond the atmosphere routinely to colonise space and extend the boundries of human kind....that is....if we don't become extinct ourselves..It is entirely possible that within the next 100 years, we ourselves could become extinct.. __________________ The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe.

Jun 29, 2003, 09:42 AM	#36
rogeld DriverHeaven Addict Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 259 Rep Power: 0	The real question? Having read through this thread, it seems to be once again the hot topic of discussion that can not and should not be avoided. Many excellent points have been made as well as a few poor ones, but surprising enough, the former outnumber the latter and thus I feel compelled to at least add something a bit constructive to the discussion. This is a touchy subject to many but so many of the problems with abortion wouldn't exist if one simple choice was made...the choice for abstinence. I know, radical decision, huh? Really, however, if you can avoid becoming pregnant or making another pregnant, than there is no choice needed beyond the point to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Some may argue 'But I enjoy sex, it is a part of human life' and that is a load of horseshit. There is absolutely no guarantee that you should have intercourse with another human being and if you absolutely can't keep your legs together or you have to let out the purple helmet warrior, then there are contraceptives which have a high enough rate of success if used properly that just about all unwanted pregnancies can be avoided. Should abortion be used as another firm of birth control? Hell no, you made the choice to have sex without protection or to have sex at all, you made an adult choice and now have to be an adult and follow through. Bottom line is: The bigger issue is not what to do with an unwanted pregnancy, but how one can be prevented in the first place. Children are a gift that we give the world to further populate it, but let us not be so frivolous with them. If you can't abstain from intercourse, then at least wear some protection for not only your own safety but also to avoid becoming another teenage mother or being a father at 16. Note: I do not have children of my own but I have seen many close friends go through with pregnancy and watched their lives crumble around them just because they couldn't keep their legs together or keep it in their pants. Last edited by rogeld; Jun 29, 2003 at 10:16 AM.

Jun 29, 2003, 10:19 AM	#37
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 18,137 Rep Power: 131	Abstinence and Education This is the core of my argument, and the message my children are getting as well. Sexual behaviour is just like any other and should be responsible and safe. I am not going to reveal my position about other sexual issues save for this. Risky lifestyles and risky behaviour are only going to perpetuate sexually transmitted disease, unwanted pregnancies and the objectification of women and children as merely sexual toys, and continue to be a growing problem in the internet and information age. Without proper education and values laden teaching, young men and women will exploit each other with greater emphasis on instant gratification. I am not a prude, but I can't ignore the new lifestyles that music industry is promoting to sell their product, that dehumanizes and objectifies women and children and puts family values in question for the promise of a quick dollar and sexual gratification. The fabric of our society is unravelling and the consequences of unwanted pregnancy are midigated by a welfare system that seems to support a productive lifestyle of unemployed men and women continuing to procreate and dump their progeny upon all of us to support and carry until adulthood. I agree it is a complicated issue(s), but I believe it all begins at home, with the children and their education through adulthood. I believe that the entertainment industry, pornography, and the internet are symptoms of a problem, I am not against regulation and education, but I am tired of the perpetuation of the myth that the aforementioned are not harmful. If we don't restrict access by children to adult oriented material, and provide meaningful education regarding sexual activity, alternative lifestyles, drug abuse and the impact of crimes against children and women our society will continue it's downward spiral in the abyss. __________________ The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe.

Jun 29, 2003, 10:25 AM	#38
jscodner DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 25 Rep Power: 0	Is Jimi dead, or preserved in Tesla's loving realization? Tesla realized that life existed in harmonic cycles, and respecting alternating currents of life's patterns became his life's work. one which allows us to communicate life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So did Jimi, Mozart, and Pythagorus. There is 2500 years of life in one sentence. Einstein relized relativity existed he didn't create it by choice. As I always say, I don't pretend to know anything, that's how I know something. Labels, and speciesization are humankind's creation. Babies are Life, Fungus is Life, Arcaea are life, and The Dead are alive. I can listen, and watch, Jimi on this same little box I am pounding this out on, and thus he lives. I can pick up my twelve-string and sing Dylan's hymn that Jimi brught to harmonic convergence, or go see the originator of the words playing this week. I, too, was raised in a christian environ, but knew from the momment I could understand English I came from what western family structure deemed another family, and thus better respect all ideas of life if I could ever hope to respect my own 4 parents. Sure enough, my birth mom had been a witch, and a christian. Responsability to respect all life, not just on earth, but within life's globe is what is, and shall ever be, truth. I see 5% of the average human, and my other senses definately are more tuned than the average Wade, or Roe. Does that make me less, or more human? Maybe, just an earthling? We have just in the last 5 years become Creators of what we deem new lifeforms through genetic manipulation. My DNA is being used for that as we type. Are the cells growing in the blender me, or someone else? They are being studied because of my particular makeup, and are unique to me. It took my blood. What is this research being used for? To create new viruses to implant in otherwise healthy humans to substitute "healthy" genes for medically deemed inferior ones. I have the same genes in my little toe as my eye, if only they could see. I even take responsability for me as aa sperm, and egg being united to cause such interest. We are merely the first generation to see these things up close, and personal. We better take it personally, or human language will cease to exist, not life. This whole universe is alive! How did I reunite with my original womb? By typing 4 lines on this keyboard, and hitting enter 35 years after my conception. The evolution of this anomoly I possess is around 400 years ago, and thus within recorded history. Rarity, that comes from the Renaissance, and is evolutionarily mappable. This DNA's child can see mankinds deemed anomoly's helix twisting back 400 years by being adopted by others, and learning to view the rainbow of life, and step out of the darkness created by seperation into gray areas. I am here in Driverheaven, because I co-exist with our silicon friends without whom I can barely even read. They talk to me, and I to them, although this I am tactilely typing. They are my main accessability aids, as they are to Mr. Hawking. Nvidia, ATI, MS, IBM, Unix, cobal, pascal, C, or CE I can't survive well without all their lives coexisting alongside, and within me. No offense, but most here would probably not even recognize the card punch cards that existed at the time of Roe V Wade that evolutionarily makes this possible, any better than they see themselves as "clumps of cells" and recognize themselves as related. Out of sight, out of mind. To be, or not to be? E=mc² Relatively speaking, "we are one, we are starshine, I am yours, and you are mine. We are song, we are children, I am truth, and you are zen. All are dark and light as rainbows, one's damned up and the rest just flows. A child's spark of unknowing grows, least ones cry the best just knows.", myself in a song I wrote called "Children". __________________ Through the Harmony and Peace of Love and Unity, John Last edited by jscodner; Jul 1, 2003 at 04:12 AM.

Jun 29, 2003, 01:12 PM	#39
rogeld DriverHeaven Addict Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 259 Rep Power: 0	Could you perhaps edit that monstrous paragraph to be a little more legible? It makes little enough sense as it is being all combined up like that.

Jun 29, 2003, 03:08 PM	#40
digerati Everyones life has worth Join Date: May 2003 Location: My Yellow Bug Posts: 3,780 Rep Power: 47	This is where things get difficult. There are so many ways to approach the problem, as abortion is used as a birth control. My mom had a pretty natural form of birth control, she's been having unprotected sex ever since before my birth as they told her she could never get pregnant. Well here I am. And my 4 other could have been brothers and sisters aren't. I don't harbor any ill feelings toward her, we have had to pretty much pinch the penny to stay up here in the suburbs. I didn't even get a computer til my 3rd year living here, and the only upgrades I get are during birthdays and christmas, so it's pretty much a 5 to 6 month cycle. But if my mom had kept those children, we would still be living in downtown hollywood with the horrible schools and the really high crimerate. One of my moms friends down the block was raped! My mom slept with a gun by her bed until we moved from there. Have any of you seen the movie Kids? That lifestyle isn't too uncommon. How do I know? Not from personal experience, but from being related to those who have. Namely my brother and my father. I tried talking to my brother about it one time. He had the very simplistic view of I wanted to, she wanted to, we did. There are pretty much a bazillion different types of birth control. Both sides will argue in the point of simplistic it feels better without. But none of them even practice the art of pulling art, it isn't a sure fire way at all but it sure as hell doesn't hurt. I am willing to bet that the majority of aboritons come in poorer areas. Why? A billion different reasons. So what're we supposed to do? Either we don't too anything or we do too much. You can't solve this problem without going too far. Mostly everyone knows about birth control, it's even taught in school. It's just being ignored. So unless we get bad like China did and only allow so many children per family, or find a way to regulate sex, we can't do too much. But if you do want to help the ignoring problem, get RID OF FECKING MTV. I've never EVER seen a worst channel than that! Keep the playboy channel, at least they try to practice safe sex in their porn. But MTV is just glorified, sexified crap! Get rid of that glamour magazine how to pleasure your boyfriend/girlfriend crap. But of course you will get the usual against freedom of speech and it will be. So yes things will be taken too far. I don't think that when they wrote the constitution they could possibly account for the way things are today. They couldn't possibly imagine televisions, magazines, and the lack of guidance from parents. Ah yes...the parents. Who leave off for work and leave their kids in front of the tv as a babysitter yet bltch and moan when their children become sluts. So who're they going to blame? The friends, the tv, the magazines. As they did contribute, but it is the parents fault. I do not approve of having kids, then leaving them in daycare all day while you go off to work. Or leave them in front of the tv like I was. Like my cousins were. 1 of them had an abortion and she's 15, the elder cousin who's a male had to pay for 2. They're overly rich. Each of them got new cars for their 15th birthdays, before they got their permits even. The female has subscriptions to almost all those glamour and cosmopolitan magazines. And they both know about birth control, it's just ignored. So how far will we push things? Censorship? Regulation? Sure the results would probably be good in the begining. But the snowball effect could be disastrous.

Jun 29, 2003, 08:26 PM	#41
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 18,137 Rep Power: 131	I often think that the more we try to seperate ourselves from animals the more difficult it is to find our humanity.. __________________ The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe.

Jun 30, 2003, 08:25 PM	#43
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 18,137 Rep Power: 131	noted I am not against mating....but there ought to be more love in this world....alot more love. __________________ The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe.

Jul 1, 2003, 08:43 AM	#45
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 18,137 Rep Power: 131	a unique perspective I think I understand what your saying.. __________________ The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe.

Jul 3, 2003, 06:32 AM	#47
merry gargouille Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha Posts: 962 Rep Power: 0	The complete quote is I doubt therefore I think I think therefore I am I am, therefore God is (exists) Descartes didn't imply that "I" don't exist without thinking, but merely used doubt (and consequently thought) to guarantee (or prove) the existence of the subject. "I think" is an argument, not an act of creation. The final point is to prove the "objective" existence of the being (God), starting at the "subjective" perception of the self. But, in a sense, you are right to say We are taught I think, therefore I am, in the west, as most people only consider the middle sentence of the construct. __________________ There is a war between the ones who say there is a war and the ones who say there isn't. ~~Leonard Cohen

Jul 3, 2003, 08:17 AM	#48
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 18,137 Rep Power: 131	But isn't this about the argument for the duality of man? __________________ The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe.

Jul 3, 2003, 05:24 PM	#49
jscodner DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 25 Rep Power: 0	Yes, duality of oneself, and proof of perspective.. Yes, that is a part of the partially complete thought of Descartes. That was my point completeness has been lost in context. Descartes' thought is used as the basis of proving the first laws of physics, as time must be proven to have a dimension B4 thought can have basis a moment must be defined. Physics only exists from the perspective of the observer. For humans, a moment is defined as 1/30th of a second. That is the problem, not all humans think at 30hz. The physical substrate exists prior to humanity, or any individuals perception. We don't percieve "clumps of cells" until after they multiply, and that doesn't happen until after at least 1/30th sec. has elapsed. In Descartes day Thought happened now, and yet no thought occuring really happens until later. Descartes got it backwards. it truly is I am, therefore I think. I didn't mis-quote, I quoted myself. The great all is truly nameless in form, because it takes more than one point in time to communicate anything. One must get down to the moment of conception, after the fact. In other words, duality, multiplicity, and singularity supercede man's thought. XX is, and XY is; therefore duality is Man. I am XY; therefore I think XX is different. It is one in the same, Roe and Wade, you and I, and we are a child. __________________ Through the Harmony and Peace of Love and Unity, John

Jul 4, 2003, 08:21 AM	#50
jscodner DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 25 Rep Power: 0	FREEDOM of the 4th dimension...time will heal ! Independance 4 all XXs and XYs on the 4th, unite in unborn freedom's celebration of DNA's singularity ! Peace 4 all ! __________________ Through the Harmony and Peace of Love and Unity, John

Jul 4, 2003, 11:57 PM	#51
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 18,137 Rep Power: 131	If you wish whether we evolved from primordial ooze or fashioned molecule by molecule through eons to become what we are now, I insist that a supreme power was the architect for this world and perhaps worlds just like it. And that all life is part of a fabric or celestial order as much as planets and stars are parts of the heavens. And the search for the secrets of creation often take mankind down dangerous and arrogant pathes towards the real truth, that mankind with all it's talent, skills and intuition, pale in comparison to what the universe is. And that when mankind attempts to modify, disrupt or halt the process of life, it must ask of itself one question, has mankind become greater than it's perception of the creator, is mankind becoming the creator, is mankind seeking God. Surely the Creator exists, and we are not the mere consequence of random collisions of protiens and enzymes and amino acids... Mankind is part of the universe and even the tiniest changes made in the paths that all species take, including our own, is like a ripple in a great pond.....they radiate outward, but eventually return.... What keeps this in check? surely there is a divine mechanism that defies human explanation, and has no analogy in this deminsion of existance and understanding. Why does life always find a way, and are we no different than species that did not survive extinctions or more like species that did, why does life endure, why do we adapt, why do we seek knowlege. Have we become so great and so powerful in our science that we ignore the beliefs that sustained our species till now.. All that mankind has accomplished till now is a tiny sliver of an encrement of time along the great geological timeline of the universe, if we destroy ourselves, then our passing would go unnoticed? I believe that we have the power to destory ourselves, but I also believe we have souls and a conscience and we have the power to preserve ourselves. Every life can make a difference, and every human life is finite, that defines our humanity. I wonder, if our species is at a critical apogee, an arc in our existance, when we can selectively modify our DNA, determine our own destiny by careful selection, if we are not foretelling the future for all of us. No doubt every abortion has a consequence, whether it is spontenous or precipitated by our hands.. __________________ The tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut by the scythe.

Aug 7, 2003, 11:40 AM	#52
reno Painlord of Ichor Join Date: May 2002 Location: bloinkin! Posts: 1,611 Rep Power: 0	dfgh Okay, easy rules for all. A woman should be able to make her own choice, but irresponsibility should not be promoted. If the child is conceived through unprotected, consentual sex...then the mother should be FORCED to have the child (unless it's life or death). Any form of rape, the woman should be able to abort it AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Protected consentual sex (birth control, depo, condom) resulting in pregnancy should be given a choice within the first trimester. Simple as that. By the way, if God is all powerful, he would not have let lowly humans develop the "technique" to abort fetuses. A true thiest would only believe we're as powerful as our diety LETS us get. To think otherwise is just blind hubris. Oh, and another thing, since when did the right to control our bodies cease to be ours? Next courts will tell us we can't have sex until marriage...then only when we try to concieve a child...then the child must be brought up with a certain set of moral...do you want the state to start taking away your rights to your body?

Aug 7, 2003, 12:36 PM	#54
reno Painlord of Ichor Join Date: May 2002 Location: bloinkin! Posts: 1,611 Rep Power: 0	dghf And to reply to some of these posts. Schools are not the place for kids to be learning about morals, and the music industry or television are not responsible for the lack thereof...guess who's fault it is? Parents. Like ^-^ said, parents squeeze out a kid, plunk them down in front of the television and/or ship them off to day"care" for 8 hours...expecting to come home to a well adjusted child. Bull! The only reason ANYONE wants "morals" and "values" taught in the classroom is because they're too lazy to teach their own kids. Every parents first priority should be to raising their children...if you can't raise a child, don't make one! My morals I'll teach everyone is that one parent should be around the child at all times until at least age 3 or 4...a dad that works nights, mom days...mom stays at home...dad stays at home....whatever. Parents should teach their children morals and values, schools should teach math and language. /end rant

Aug 7, 2003, 12:40 PM	#55
reno Painlord of Ichor Join Date: May 2002 Location: bloinkin! Posts: 1,611 Rep Power: 0	dh Alright, for the sake of time constraints in my thinking processes...to revise the 'protected' rule, a woman must be confirmed to be on a form of birth control, depo, pills, norplant, what have you. There are records of perscriptions and such, and hell, even simple blood tests can find elevated levels of progestin after weeks, sometimes months. To summarize, the clinic does a blood test...positive for birth control? Able to abort. Negative? Not able. Although, me wonders how viable that could be, but at least it's a starting point. Our courts are already tied up with small claims and petty infractions anyway...but I can't think of a valid argument for my side of the story yet...processing...