U.S after war history.

mike2h · May 17, 2003, 04:09 PM

does sweden still have mandatory military service? why dont you check out the amount of explosives & weapons your country makes. you claim your country has not done anything, for want of better terms, 'really bad'. has it done any good? something you and some other people seem to miss is that it is not enough to do nothing 'really bad' you got to do something good.
this whole neutrality thing is chickenshit crap. it means a country is to cowardly to contribute to the betterment of the world & ALWAYS means some sort of comprimise that is of negative aspect. that is how hitler & most other evil leaders get into power- people staying neutral & 'not involved'

~~bluelight~~ · May 17, 2003, 04:29 PM

We make weapons.Swedish weapon technology was used in Iraq...by Usa.Exactly what... i dont know.

We are part of the machine.

Yes.

Sweden has never been neutral.We have served as some sort of "barrier" or "no mans land" during the cold war but throuhout it...we were firmly attached to Nato....secretly.....of course....although...all of us knew...who wanted to know.

The situation during WW2 was somewhat ..similar..only difference was that we had loads of Nazis...in SWeden that were...powerful...up until 42-43.....

Just as...in Denmark..Norway....Finland...France ...Belgium...Holland....Only difference...Hitler deided he didnt need to waste time on us.

Might very well have to do with ythe fact that Goring was married to a Swede and other close connections between influential capitalists and Nazi germany....

Bluelight

Falstaff · May 17, 2003, 04:37 PM

there is in fact a policy in place since 1993 for and against the export of arms from Sweden

mike2h · May 17, 2003, 04:44 PM

i guess trying to copy & past 2 things at once thing still is not working

mike2h · May 17, 2003, 04:49 PM

i just got this from sweden.com- Swedish firms poised for $1,200 million Saudi air defence deal... not sure about your export deal

mike2h · May 17, 2003, 04:54 PM

hey your messing with me! i was getting my opinion of you all set & you go mess me up with an interesting, informative post. oh well back to the drawing boards

~~bluelight~~ · May 17, 2003, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight

Sweden has never been neutral.We have served as some sort of "barrier" or "no mans land" during the cold war but throuhout it...we were firmly attached to Nato....secretly.....of course....although...all of us knew...who wanted to know.

Forgot to say.......all of us that was to the left............were registered photographed etc etc etc.....more than one hundred thousand people were considered as "risks" by the secret police.All of this became official a couple of years ago.....but...we knew then......

and...the suspiciaons of us being a risk to our nation....was ridiculous....but...secret police..arent known for brains are they??

Saying this now....om probably getting registerewd as a potential enemy by the Echelon.....

Time flies...doesnt it...And nothing changes.

Bluelight

Falstaff · May 17, 2003, 05:08 PM

a major in our armed forces currently occupying IRAQ absolutely loves swedish weaponry, very well designed and very balanced, available for export, since he has a sniper rifle made in sweden..

mike2h · May 17, 2003, 05:22 PM

pretty soon they will be kicking you with jackboots!

kidding aside, what was that all about? i you actually had to go through that?

GOG · May 17, 2003, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mike2h
try reading the post & keeping it in context. the "exceptions" was a direct quote from your previous post referring to this forum. i will quote you again - " Maybe I'm just dejected by the fact that everyone here (with a few exceptions) are so blinded by the supposed superiority of their own country, that they can't see when their own government is pumping them full with lies." so try again. massacred citizens? you do realise that there were other countries involved in this besides the us dont you?

Yes, massacred citizens. Or how would you describe trigger happy soldiers shooting their rifles with full auto at a car transporting women and four children?

Yes, I'm aware of that there were other countries involved, I'm also aware of that you were far from majority in th UN.

Falstaff · May 17, 2003, 06:25 PM

The incident you mentioned, and other incidents where vehicles were purposefully driven into armed checkpoints was well documented by camera and witnesses. This was an unorganized attempt by republican guard and desperate former members of the regime, to smuggle arms and weapons through checkpoints, and some were deliberately intended to sacrifice the occupants for the sole purpose of misleading the military and influence world opinion..the drivers of these vehicles were warned verbally and with weapons drawn down on them to stop or they would be shot, they didn't and the occupants concealed within the vehicles were injured or killed...These IRAQI's were crasy and suicidal. These fools drove into tank columns with machine guns blazing and hastily painted words on the side, like "press"..they even got close enough to throw gasoline bombs onto a tank disabling it..
They were insane, and If I stood there at that roadblock I would probably have done the same thing these american kids were ordered to do..."disable the vehicle" by any means necessary...
Remember...some of those vans had bombs in them, and if you have been watching the news, some still are...this technique is the hallmark of terrorists and desperate men...

You seriously want to debate massacre? Please take note of the killing fields north of Bagdad..count the bodies when it is all over..I am sure they will number in the 100s of thousands..

GOG · May 17, 2003, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
The incident you mentioned, and other incidents where vehicles were purposefully driven into armed checkpoints was well documented by camera and witnesses. This was an unorganized attempt by republican guard and desperate former members of the regime, to smuggle arms and weapons through checkpoints, and some were deliberately intended to sacrifice the occupants for the sole purpose of misleading the military and influence world opinion..the drivers of these vehicles were warned verbally and with weapons drawn down on them to stop or they would be shot, they didn't and the occupants concealed within the vehicles were injured or killed...These IRAQI's were crasy and suicidal. These fools drove into tank columns with machine guns blazing and hastily painted words on the side, like "press"..they even got close enough to throw gasoline bombs onto a tank disabling it..
They were insane, and If I stood there at that roadblock I would probably have done the same thing these american kids were ordered to do..."disable the vehicle" by any means necessary...
Remember...some of those vans had bombs in them, and if you have been watching the news, some still are...this technique is the hallmark of terrorists and desperate men...

You seriously want to debate massacre? Please take note of the killing fields north of Bagdad..count the bodies when it is all over..I am sure they will number in the 100s of thousands..

Somehow I have hard to believe anything that comes out of your propaganda machine. Your soldiers got scared and started to fire blindly at that truck, even a journalist which was present said that the commander of the group had difficulties to get them stop firing their weapons. Now you're at it again, comparing different situations, just because Hussein killed women and children does NOT give you the right to do so.

mike2h · May 17, 2003, 06:52 PM

i guess you are not going to clean your up your mistake in your previous post before you commit another one. the coalition forces did not go around slaughtering women & children for the hell of it. the arab press did not even make that accusation. given that it was a war & that the enemy iraqui(different from non supporters of hussein) were using women & children as sheilds, sending women & children into combat, & dressing as civilians, i think civilian casualties were pretty damn low. how many civilians do you think that regime would have killed this year, next year, & so on. hell they were gunning down there own citizens during the war. but this really does not seem to matter to you. you can not seem to get past this america hate/envy thing you seem to be inflicted with. you are

mike2h · May 17, 2003, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Somehow I have hard to believe anything that comes out of your propaganda machine. Your soldiers got scared and started to fire blindly at that truck, even a journalist which was present said that the commander of the group had difficulties to get them stop firing their weapons. Now you're at it again, comparing different situations, just because Hussein killed women and children does NOT give you the right to do so.

well there you go again. first you negate everthing that is not pro your view because it comes out of some sort of "propoganda machine"(of course your country is free of media bias & bent) then you get it wrong again. the reporter did say the sarge/lt whatever had a problem getting them to stop, kinda common in war, but did not say they just opened fire for the hell of it. the vehicle would not stop. they did the right thing, the result is sad but a part of war. and your whole idea about hussein is ludicrous. that is the kind of idea that allowed hitler to gain power & keep it. and let iraq fall to the level it did. exactly how long was his killing supposed to go on? you really are missing the big difference. hussein has been killing women & children for the hell of it. we did not go over there to kill woman & children but unfotunatley some of the lives we were trying to save were lost. we did our dammdest to reduce civilian population & even lost coalition lives in the effort to protect civilians. if you can not see the difference then you snould really take a look at your morals & values.

GOG · May 17, 2003, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mike2h
well there you go again. first you negate everthing that is not pro your view because it comes out of some sort of "propoganda machine"(of course your country is free of media bias & bent) then you get it wrong again. the reporter did say the sarge/lt whatever had a problem getting them to stop, kinda common in war, but did not say they just opened fire for the hell of it. the vehicle would not stop. they did the right thing, the result is sad but a part of war. and your whole idea about hussein is ludicrous. that is the kind of idea that allowed hitler to gain power & keep it. and let iraq fall to the level it did. exactly how long was his killing supposed to go on? you really are missing the big difference. hussein has been killing women & children for the hell of it. we did not go over there to kill woman & children but unfotunatley some of the lives we were trying to save were lost. we did our dammdest to reduce civilian population & even lost coalition lives in the effort to protect civilians. if you can not see the difference then you snould really take a look at your morals & values.

First of all, I'm not a fan of Hussein, in fact I hate him just as much as you do. But this doesn't mean that approve to your methods. Your media has been filled with biased reports and complete lies since day one of this war. Your army has once again showed it's complete lack of discipline and respect for human lives. I saw a clip on BBC when one of your soliders fired some kind of robot at a house, what does this soldier do when he hits? He stands up, tosses his helm up in the air and screams jiiii-haaa, just like a cowboy. This is the kind of people you're sending over to do your governments dirty work, a bunch of cowboys. Your cowboys f*cked up and killed a van full of women and children, no doubt about the massacre there.

BTW, where are the WMD?

Falstaff · May 17, 2003, 08:35 PM

Gog
All young men and women in uniform are not cowboys, far from it, many wish to be and many more avoid the subject

Have you noticed I don't make characterizations or slurs about people from sweden, you know why? I think it just diminishes the whole concept of debate...I could you know, make some observations of Sweden, my grandfather is Norwegian and has tried to teach me a bias against Sweden for helping the Nazi's during WW2, he told me the war lasted two years longer because Sweden needed Polish Coal, and Germany needed iron ore..plausible, debateble...but to me umimportant.(right now)

You will find the media is full of bias against and for the IRAQI conflict. Take your pick, there is much to choose from where ever you search..that is if your open minded, I read Pravda, the Palestinian press and The greek national news..and yes, even crap that Pakistan churns out, and calls news, because there is truth in some of it. I choose not to read or watch the BBC sometimes because they remind me of the press during the vietnam war, hard to swallow and quick to jump to conclusion.

I know you don't know a damn thing about war, this clearly evident in just about every single thing you say, and you go so far as to disrespect the men and women of my country, I presume to bring me to some irrational point that you have already achieved without success.

You remind me of the noisy guy in the bar that won't shut up...just when you sober up and realize what you have said, the bar is empty or someone is going to show you outside by the seat of your pants..If that works for you fine...but remember, people are best known for what they do, not for what they say...so what have you done to improve your world? your country? your life?....

A little personal inventory is useful to achieve perspective...
but all I ask is that you stop making slurs...
you know damn well that we don't massacre people....come on man...

desmo · May 18, 2003, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
In two wars, with a 2nd division U.S. Marines, On a battlehsip, on an LPH, on an LHA, on a carrier, In several submarines, and deployed with an aviation unit, saw some terrible shit. been shot at and shot back, I was pretty damn fortunate, some of my friends saved my ass, or I wouldn't be here today...I am proud of what I accomplished, I sacrificed and I gave alot for my country, and might have paid the ultimate price, except someone else did it for me.
I come from a christian background, and learned long ago that their will always be wars and rumours of wars, as long as there are people on this earth, gonna happen regardless, whether it is WMD or sticks and rocks and bottles.
I will always be grateful I was born an American and chose to live in America, I have lived in other places in Europe and Asia, and really enjoyed it...but America, it's my home.

I am going to wave the stars and stripes right now, wave it proudly, back and forth, it symbolizes freedom, determination, the pursuit of liberty and justice for all...

I still get a tear in my eye when I say the pledge of allegiance. and sing the star spangled banner.

If called to do so, I would get my unit one together, pull the old uniforms out and make another sacrifice for my country, it is what I do, and I do it well, I am damn proud of that..ask any marine in my platoon, who put the tourniquet on their leg, who pulled them into a trench under fire...who calmly counted each incoming round till it stopped thumping around us, and ran our asses off shooting behind us all the way...we were scared, damn scared, and I think it really transformed all of us, every single one of us..
War sucks...but you have to be able to fight and win..constant vigilance, jealously guard your borders..and project power when you have to, that is the legacy of my generation.

You asked me If I am proud of the United States military history, then I say yes, but except that this country and it's leaders have made some terrible mistakes, even our most historic and important presidents blundered diplomatically and took us to foriegn shores to fight hopeless battles where young men and women died. But they served proudly as well, God bless them all, the men and women of this great nation, who faithfully served and paid the ultimate price...but bless the peace makers, and never let them forget that freedom is not free, someone, somewhere may attempt to rest the power away from our great nation, by force or by guile. And people like me will be there, prepared, weapons at the ready, awaiting our orders and dispatching our units.

The next time you get all teary eyed waving the stars and stripes please remember the atrocities the US did to the 'native americans'. The flag stands for everything the US has done!

By guile? Are you ready to confront the Bush Adm. for its attempt to take away your basic freedoms?

mike2h · May 18, 2003, 12:09 AM

please listen to the voices in your head. they are telling you to pull it out of.....! soooooo how about some links to complete lies? what countries media is not biased? did you actually watch the war? sounds like you have it confused with some cheesy sci-fi flick. i mean, robots flying around the field. were there like lasers & creatures with tentacles & stuff? sounds like i missed alll the action. cnn, cnbc, fox, al jazeera, hell i even watched bbc america & did not see any of that super hi tech stuff! oh that is right they lied about the war. hey maybe it did not even really happen. except for the americans running around killing women & children, that definetley happened because you said so. was the jiii-haaa really like loud? was it stereo or 5.1? are you sure it was an american & not an armenian? that mistake happens frequentley. i will defer to you as as the call on that one because it is obvious you were there & nobody else that was capable of telling the truth was. or did you just observe the whole war through the eyes of a flying robot. that would be much safer than risking you life to save somebody elses.

mike2h · May 18, 2003, 12:16 AM

what country you from? there is not a single country, nation, civilisation,culture, etc, that has not committed such acts. i am not making excuses, just telling it how it is. so when you make a statement like that include EVERYBODY.

desmo · May 18, 2003, 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mike2h
what country you from? there is not a single country, nation, civilisation,culture, etc, that has not committed such acts. i am not making excuses, just telling it how it is. so when you make a statement like that include EVERYBODY.

I'm from the US. And such acts are WRONG no matter who does them or how often. NO EXCUSES JUST RESTITUTION!!!

mike2h · May 18, 2003, 12:29 AM

so everybody owes everbody. are you a lawyer?