cozumel

So this time next year the US will have a new president. Personally, from a European perspective, I hope the elctorate chooses a Democrat and preferably Barrack 'Hussein' Obama.

With Bush having lost control of Congress and effectively unable to drive any policy forward his legacy is already in place. Democrats are too busy fighting each other to mention him and Republicans are too fearful of his record and avoid being associated with him.

Oliver Stone is to release a biopic movie and Bush is unlikely to be given positive treatment given Stone's record of liberal sympathies. Jacob Wesiberg's recent book titled "The Bush Tragedy" talks of the president's 'historic downfall' and paints a portraint of disaster. Another book coming out in March titled "Reagan's Disciple: Bush's Troubled Quest for a Legacy" by two Washington reporters tells of a man who failed to live up to Republican party expectations.

Will the War in Iraq, high oil prices, hurricane Katrina (and the almost racist treatment of the poor black New Orleans community) and attitude towward the environment and global warming mean the conclusion will be of Bush as an unmitigated disaster? Or will Bush's decisions on taxes and the appoinment of conservative judges mean he will be remembered with positivity and warmth by most Americans?

I think you probably know my view, but what do you guys (mostly US citizens) reckon?

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OmegaRED

I'm not from America (obviously) but our opinion over here is that Americans got what they deserved when they reelected Bush. He sent Americans to war with the wrong country and mishandled the terrorist response and then gets rewarded with four more years; knowing that, how can it be deemed a disaster when really it's just more of the same?

I hope for the good of America that Obama and Clinton run as Pres/VP it will do a lot to repair the tarnished image of America overseas.

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Sandok

Warmongerer is what most people will think... He's RUINED the US's credibility outside his country and while the nationalistic redneck might think "who cares", in a global world and global economy, it's quite bad.

I doubt Obama / Clinton will be able to change this within one term. US support hasn't been this low in a LONG time so we'll see.

cozumel

Any US citizens with views?

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OldBuzzard

Oh great...another 'Bash Bush" thread.

Have fun. In the end it will get you now where

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

mkk

If a republican candidate would choose to remodel the administration staff from the ground up I'd go with that person just as well as with the Clinton option. The president is just one person.

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Playing Dragon Age, might forget everything else.

cozumel

@ OldBuzzard:
This is not a 'bash Bush' thread and should not be about attacking US foreign policy. I would like to know what US folks feel when looking back on the Bush years. Have the pocies on tax been good? Has the economy been the thing that you find most important? How does he compare to your previous presidents such as Clinton, George H W Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, Johnson, Kennedy etc etc?

If people want to merely bash Bush then they can start another thread. This is where to debate the legacy.

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OmegaRED

That's why you don't ask Americans for their opinion on Bush

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kris23

i dont care whos president really, as long as they are smarter than "he who has the lowest IQ of all presidents"

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OldBuzzard

Oh really??

Sandok: nationalistic redneck

Kris23: "he who has the lowest IQ of all presidents"

You: hurricane Katrina (and the almost racist treatment of the poor black New Orleans community)

And I'm sure that there will be more to come.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

cozumel

Why don't you state what, in your opinion, is the real legacy? I tried to be fair in my original post and certainly feel, from perspective of someone who lives outside the US that the Katrina comment was accurate and based on a fact. Please tell me how you will remember the Bush years as I do want to know.

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[hobo]eclipse

Bush has done more to undermine the liberties of Americans than anything with his presidency, do you know that any us citizen with atleast a misdemeanor is considered a terrorist, and that there is now soveriegn Mexican territory in the middle of the lower 48 states?

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[hobo]eclipse

Here's just a lil of the "pudding"

Mexico To Get "Sovereign Territory" in Kansas City; America's Heartland

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Maddogg6

An american who agrees ....
And... hmmm, Bush 'won' re-election when his brother was implicated in allegations of voter fraud in the very state that determined the election.... I have little doubt the allegations were false.

I hope a rep. gets in as a lame duck pres. as I dont trust Obama, Hillery or any of them for that matter - except possibly Ron Paul, but I dont *love* his voting record either. They all seem motivated to bilk this country of its assets in one way or another, be it universal health care or un-just wars. Forced into picking one of the other is just sad.

cozumel

But Maddogg, what are your thoughts on the Bush legacy from your personal viewpoint? Good or bad? And why? I am interested.

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CDsDontBurn

From a personal stand-point, i feel that the bush jr. years could have done better. what happened on sept. 11, 2001 was just a method for jr here to finish what his daddy did in iraq a decade earlier.

i also don't like the reprocussions of sept. 11 as my parents are immigrants themselves. they've been trying to apply for their RESIDENCY, not US citizenship, since before i was born! mind you, i'm 24 now. prior to all the immigration laws due to 'terrorism' that took place shortly after sept. 11, they were just a month or two away from getting their US residency cards. while, that does not directly affect me, it still is a part of my own personal life i would have to deal with would either of my parents get deported for whatever the reason may be.

as for recent affairs with jr here, he has appointed a new bill that would keep sending money to keep the fighting going on in the middle east for the next president. so, regardless of who wins, the next president will still be dealing with that mess over there.

IMO, jr has left a bad taste in my mouth, and for whoever wins the election, they will have a hard time cleaning up the mess that jr has left behind.

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Maddogg6

In a word - bad. we already see lost freedoms guaranteed by the constitution under his watch, and will likely be this way for the next decade or more.... the economy is largely blamed by experts as a direct result of his policies.

I think his legacy will be felt for a long time - for most - bad, for some good (oil, defense contractors etc..)

thunderclap

I voted for the other guy. Does that mean I got what I deserved? (I do see what you're saying though. I am pissed at those who voted Bush.)

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Marc B.
Genrefinity.net - Your source for all things in the horror, science fiction and fantasy genres

[hobo]eclipse

bah! we didn't elect bush, it was a scam, just like his entire legacy, to further the distance between the wealthy and poor and eliminate the middle class, and now it's full steam ahead with north american union, mind you its not one person or group lobbying for this north american union, but policy change and systems that push the econmomy and the will of the people into a direction that accepts the north american union and global government.

It's happening, wheather it be the Canadian police that were at the Superbowl, the fight in texas to stop the trans texas corridor, a superhighway starting in mexico and traveling through the heart of USA up to Canada, a toll road mind you, that will confiscate some existing texas roads and build the new superhighway on land confiscated FROM THE PEOPLE with eminate domain. After all that, the the people who are going to build this road, build the facilities to collect tolls and actually collect the tolls for the next 50 years is a private company from spain


One word for the bush legacy = deceit

Funny how old buzzard has no real opinion in this thread or the one i started, doing fly by posting not contributing anything really to conversation, only posting emotionally charged statements that do little other than try to distract from or derail the real topic or issue at hand. Kinda like the government or corporate media only telling all the info on subjects they think you should hear about and inoring or giving a "drive by" response that either confuses you or attacks the position and supporters of it.

oh and buzzard, Sadoks comment about nationalistic redneck im pretty sure is referring to those who blindly support bush in a feable attempt at patriotism.

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Zelig

I doubt it, there's very little will, socially or politically in Canada to form a union that extends past NAFTA and further free trade. Canada would have nothing to gain from it.

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Maddogg6

Can you say 'new world order' - Bush sr. said it plenty - and here we are - on that road - but I never hear that anymore, at least not like when Sr. was in office. I hope the texas people do *everything* they can to halt the progress of that highway construction. Even if it means the project going over budget and costs us tax dollars - the result would be much worse I am affraid. Tho, the thought of such a highway alone to me = treason.

[hobo]eclipse

NOTE: edited my prior post

Sry dood, but for the elite, its not about the people. The european union was started by economic integration.

Fact of the matter is , a 10 lane superhigway crossing the border with Mexico is totally unneed. Only supports economic intergration, which leads to.....

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Zelig

And I'd love to see more economic integration in some areas, more relaxed free trade rules would be great.

Starting to get way off-topic here, but do you have any sources? I won't make a response to them in this thread, but am interested in reading them if you've got any.

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Maddogg6

I would love to see more 2 way economic integration - we import *way* more than we export - until we start talking 'jobs'. Part of the bush legacy will be his support for this NAFTA agreement - that *is* designed to further the import / export imbalance we already are seeing.

Zelig

Referring to imports/exports to/from NAFTA, or in general?

Bilateral trade to specific countries is basically irrelavent, it's only the overall import/export picture that matters.

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cozumel

I've actually thought the US 'freetrade' policies to be quite ironic for quite a while (years in fact). Certain agricultural subsidies are a good example where US subsidies make their products artificially cheaper than the products grown in Africa. I'm almost tempted to call it socialism. It flouts market forces, supply and demand. It is a form of artificial price controls.

Oops - I've gone way off-topic now.

@ Old Buzzard - Come on man - offer something to the debate. How will YOU reflect on the Bush years?

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Sandok

That wasn't referring Bush... I was referring to people in the US like that, not the President himself.

I guess people see what they want to.

[hobo]eclipse

to a degree yes, but on the other hand it's info about a situation bush hadn't addressed, meanwhile creating more questionable policies and trouble.

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Maddogg6

my point was - we import way more than we export in general - the over all cash intake vs spending internationally.

Maddogg6

Thats what logic would dictate.... but....
If you hear about the 'Amero' - start protesting

Seems mexico is the only party who has anything to gain from NAFTA.

I remember Ross Perot trying to warn us about this NAFTA (was a new term at that time for me) -

Re NAFTA - 'Theres gonna be a big sucking sound as US jobs are shipped off overseas' He was right.... 15 years ago it turns out.