The debate religion thread!

x.clay · Nov 18, 2008, 03:22 PM

Interesting thread...here are a few thoughts to toss out there...

I can understand anyone who takes a look at the world and wonders how could there be a god. There is constand pain, suffering, injustice, and oppression. If there is a god, and he is a loving god like everyone clains, why doesn't he just fix this mess!

The problem is that to fix the world you have to fix people and people are pretty messed up. I used to consider myself a pretty decent person. I obeyed my parents. Participated in charities and helped those less fortunate. When I died I expected to my good stuff to outweigh any bad stuff I did and into heaven I would go....

The problem is I'm really not that great of a person. I'm selfish, pridefull, a liar....and this list could go on and on. The truth is even when I think I am doing pretty well I am so far from the standard God sets that I don't even come close. If we had to depend on being good people to get into heaven none of us would have a chance. I have made so many choices that totally go against what God would want for me and as a result I deserve to be seperated from God...I deserve hell.

God is a just God and the penaties for sin can't just be brushed under the rug like they never happened. But God is also a relational God that loves each of us more than we could begin to understand. Someone had to pay the price for us, and hell is to large a price for any of us to have to pay, so he paid the price for us. The God of eternity stepped down to walk among us, to teach us and show us what God was like, and to ultimately carry our punishment. All God asks is that you will acknowledge who Jesus is and accept his payment for a debt you could never pay on your own.

There are a lot of arguments in this thread over things like creation vs. evolution, free will, science vs. faith, but I think they are all side issues that people get really sidetracted on. The underlining theme throughout the entire Bible is not a laundry list of do's and dont's. God gives the creation account about 2 pages that I would consider pretty vague so I wouldn't consider this an issue that God thinks is too important beyond the basics that He created everything. The common theme throughout the entire Bible is God's love and interaction with his people. Most of the Bible is written about people and their lives. Who they were, their struggles and failings as well as their accomplishments. The big figures in the bible were far from perfect people and the bible doesn't try to gloss over this. Abraham didn't believe God's promise and decided to take matters into his own hands. Moses murdered someone. David slept with another man's wife and then killed the guy so he wouldn't find out. Peter denied Jesus multiple times. And Paul (who wrote most of the new testimate) was a leader in the persection and even killing of many early Christians. God isn't looking for perfect people. He know we are all messed up. He is just looking for people who are willing to be honest and admit their imperfection. We can't fix ourselves. Even the most moral person still has struggles, even if they won't let you see them. Only God can fix us, and rather than turn each of us into mindless drones that have no choice but to obey, he gives us the choice.

Judas · Nov 18, 2008, 04:50 PM

God created Adam, and then god gave adam a notepad and pen and then said "adam, take a note" thus creating the word of god aka the bible.

Someone find this counter productive?

OmegaRED · Nov 18, 2008, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x.clay

God isn't looking for perfect people. He know we are all messed up. He is just looking for people who are willing to be honest and admit their imperfection. We can't fix ourselves. Even the most moral person still has struggles, even if they won't let you see them. Only God can fix us, and rather than turn each of us into mindless drones that have no choice but to obey, he gives us the choice.

I've made the choice to decide God isn't real and I'll fix my problems myself. If I supposedly have free will then this should be fine and dandy, if not then I guess I'll be going to Hell

x.clay · Nov 19, 2008, 11:14 AM

If there is no God then there is no reason to try to be a better person, live a good life, etc. (unless it just makes you feel better). Life is short so party hard and enjoy it as much as you can. Anyone that professes a faith should be considered a fool for wasting there short existance trying to live for something that isn't real.

But if there is a God and hell is a real place, it certainly shouldn't be destination you feel comfortable with. I have heard the arguement "I would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven..." Hell isn't a place where you can kick back with satan and roast some marshmellows over the open flames. I think most people have a pretty bland view of heaven and hell. The bible's view of hell is a place of constant tormant. What comes to my mind is the feeling of drowning....the desperation for a gasp of air, the trapt feeling, the feeling of the world closing in around you but there is nothing you can do about it. Hell isn't a big party for those that didn't make the cut for heaven. People will be too focused on their own situation to be concerned about everyone else. And heaven isn't a place with little naked babies flying around with harps and fluffy clouds. The few people in the bible who were given a glimpse of heaven struggle to find a wordly comparison. Heaven is a place where things like pain, disapointment, injustice, disease, and death are finally done away with. We'll be surrounded by the most amazing scenery imaginable. Take the most breathtaking landscape or sunset you have even seen and conbine with the the best relationships you have had and remove any pain or disapointment. And then stretch that feeling on forever and you might be starting to get a tiny glimpse of heaven.

dawgXdenta · Nov 28, 2008, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mousey

i am giving my Opinion which involves taking a Dump on religion.

He he , I don't think you are taking a dump on anything. These are your honest opinions. As a religious person(however not of the orthodox institutions). Its quite fair to say that religion has caused more strife than any other cause well probably close to or equal to political power and wealth plays.

Whats needed is a revolutionary "thought system" based on improving everyone's livelihood , expanding knowledge. And Yes improving morals. Many So called Utopian theorists miss that out completely.

Religion was supposed to be the foundation for such a society but because of mans lust for power this wasn't possible. I mean even if you are an atheist you have to agree that some religious teachings like forgiveness and love are core to a society we would all like to live in.

The 10 commandments are a basis for a society that doesn't exist. Think about it; thou shall not kill , thou shall not steal. Imagine living in a society that upholds those values. Whether you believe that religion in fact or myth that one thing cannot be denied.

FO SHIZEEE

dawgXdenta · Nov 28, 2008, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

I've made the choice to decide God isn't real and I'll fix my problems myself. If I supposedly have free will then this should be fine and dandy, if not then I guess I'll be going to Hell

He he funny guy, nice logic. I tried that didn't work fer me.
Funny how u can see a glimmer of ur life in absolute strangers.

There is a quote I hope you remember in your life , a reality I have lived through painfully "Either they(we) shall come crawling, or willingly through the door heads held high."

Dont know where i got it

dawgXdenta · Nov 29, 2008, 03:11 PM

Here is a humdinger for religious folk and non religious folk. "One must choose to walk the path NONE can choose to walk it for you"
Bloody hell whats up with some of you people choose for yourselves find the truth. Allow no one to brainwash you.
You cant be recruited into anything its YOU who recruits urself into YOUR view of life. Religious or otherwise.
Dammit if ure in America millions have died so u can proudly say ur atheist or Mormon or whatever and many more will die for those freedoms.
So please no one take those freedoms for granted and respect each others views.

END OF RANT

dawgXdenta · Dec 8, 2008, 04:18 PM

I must admit. If this was a debate in a 3rd world country ya'll would be very quiet.

Mmm wanted to put a smiley but inapropr8 i guess.

OmegaRED · Dec 8, 2008, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgXdenta

I must admit. If this was a debate in a 3rd world country ya'll would be very quiet.

Mmm wanted to put a smiley but inapropr8 i guess.

Nah, with all those Christian charities coming in and feeding, clothing and educating the 3rd world people they'd be pulling out their Bibles in the debates

Neshi · Dec 9, 2008, 03:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawgXdenta

Whats needed is a revolutionary "thought system" based on improving everyone's livelihood , expanding knowledge. And Yes improving morals. Many So called Utopian theorists miss that out completely.

Religion was supposed to be the foundation for such a society but because of mans lust for power this wasn't possible. I mean even if you are an atheist you have to agree that some religious teachings like forgiveness and love are core to a society we would all like to live in.

The 10 commandments are a basis for a society that doesn't exist. Think about it; thou shall not kill , thou shall not steal. Imagine living in a society that upholds those values. Whether you believe that religion in fact or myth that one thing cannot be denied.

I don't think that is something of a religion. I think those '10 commandments' are already lived by if you use your common sense and you're feeling for right and wrong, something everybody has.

I don't need a religion to tell me; this is right and this is wrong. I know that all by myself, because I know it when something I do is right or wrong.

Neshi · Dec 9, 2008, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x.clay

If there is no God then there is no reason to try to be a better person, live a good life, etc. (unless it just makes you feel better). Life is short so party hard and enjoy it as much as you can. Anyone that professes a faith should be considered a fool for wasting there short existance trying to live for something that isn't real.

But if there is a God and hell is a real place, it certainly shouldn't be destination you feel comfortable with. I have heard the arguement "I would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven..." Hell isn't a place where you can kick back with satan and roast some marshmellows over the open flames. I think most people have a pretty bland view of heaven and hell. The bible's view of hell is a place of constant tormant. What comes to my mind is the feeling of drowning....the desperation for a gasp of air, the trapt feeling, the feeling of the world closing in around you but there is nothing you can do about it. Hell isn't a big party for those that didn't make the cut for heaven. People will be too focused on their own situation to be concerned about everyone else. And heaven isn't a place with little naked babies flying around with harps and fluffy clouds. The few people in the bible who were given a glimpse of heaven struggle to find a wordly comparison. Heaven is a place where things like pain, disapointment, injustice, disease, and death are finally done away with. We'll be surrounded by the most amazing scenery imaginable. Take the most breathtaking landscape or sunset you have even seen and conbine with the the best relationships you have had and remove any pain or disapointment. And then stretch that feeling on forever and you might be starting to get a tiny glimpse of heaven.

I don't agree. First of all, you don't know what heaven or hell is like. Saying someones view on hell or heaven is wrong is just stupid, as is saying you know what it will be like.
That aside, if there is no god there is no use in living the right way?
What about your own feelings? I feel very sad for you if the way you live is just for your God.

dawgXdenta · Dec 9, 2008, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neshi

I don't think that is something of a religion. I think those '10 commandments' are already lived by if you use your common sense and you're feeling for right and wrong, something everybody has.

I don't need a religion to tell me; this is right and this is wrong. I know that all by myself, because I know it when something I do is right or wrong.

I agree with you. Such good is innate .But it also begs the question how has religion influenced our culture, our sense of wrong and right. These morals and views and opinions. How much of them are christian(I'm not a christian Mind you)
After about a thousand years of christian values how have they permeated society.

Think about it, friendship forgiveness sacrifice...
Mmmh I don't know the answer myself.
But i'm quiet sure that modern society is quite influenced by them in an indirect way.

Like radio waves, he he.