[narwal]

What matters most to me? On the surface, this would seem an easy question. Were I inclined to take the question unseriously? Based on my experiences, I found the answer quite revealing.

With the advent of personal computers, waiting times no longer seemed to be an issue – users came to expect computers to respond immediately. The Web, however, is one of the reasons that waiting times did not disappear into the shadows of history.

The lack of functionality can constrict you in several ways: In its severest form, it can prevent you from achieving your goals, or put simply, you cannot make the application do what you want it to do. As a simple example, think of an application that doesn't let you select several items at a time and perform an action on them, such as Delete. As a result, you have to carry out the procedure for each item separately. This is particularly cumbersome if procedures consist of several steps.

It's a bit like the old wisdom that your car has to have four wheels before you can drive it.

[Maddogg6]

I think I understand your analogy... and would like to point out that - a car, is a mode of transportation - and is most popular - but the truth is... a motor cycle with only 2 wheels is more efficient in several ways.

Then theres the bicycle - thats even more efficient with only 2 wheels...

My point - all because its popular - doesn't make it the best thing for *us all*. Considering those with big cars tend to drive like they own the roads.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by narwal

What matters most to me? On the surface, this would seem an easy question. Were I inclined to take the question unseriously? Based on my experiences, I found the answer quite revealing.

With the advent of personal computers, waiting times no longer seemed to be an issue – users came to expect computers to respond immediately. The Web, however, is one of the reasons that waiting times did not disappear into the shadows of history.

The lack of functionality can constrict you in several ways: In its severest form, it can prevent you from achieving your goals, or put simply, you cannot make the application do what you want it to do. As a simple example, think of an application that doesn't let you select several items at a time and perform an action on them, such as Delete. As a result, you have to carry out the procedure for each item separately. This is particularly cumbersome if procedures consist of several steps.

It's a bit like the old wisdom that your car has to have four wheels before you can drive it.

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. You in the wrong thread maybe?

[Maddogg6]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

I don't know what the fuck you're talking about. You in the wrong thread maybe?

*I think* he was saying 'if it floats your boat, theres nothing wrong with your religion, and those without religion are doomed to failure'... in a difficult to follow analogy.... ??? maybe I'm wrong... but I'll first assume the guy isnt all that whak... it seem to work with what I read (or at least I have heard my interpretation said before)

so I continued with his car analogy to refute him... ??? - if he is whak - erm, its kinda funny coincidence... ???

[OmegaRED]

I dunno, it was a stretch when that one guy used Windows comparisons now this other guy is using the web and cars. FFS, quit with the riddles and say what you mean.

[Russ]

lol, "all powerful" leaves no room for debate, or logic, and allows for any contradictions.

Could God create some indestructible object?
- Of course, he is all powerful...
Could God destroy this indestructible object?
- Of course, he is all powerful...

hmm....

[Maddogg6]

Originally Posted by Russ

lol, "all powerful" leaves no room for debate, or logic, and allows for any contradictions.

Could God create some indestructible object?
- Of course, he is all powerful...
Could God destroy this indestructible object?
- Of course, he is all powerful...

hmm....

great point. thats the typical circular logic with those who don't even think about what they say, or been told... but then again, how many religions actually promote 'thinking for thy self'... ? few, if not *none*.

[OmegaRED]

I'd like to hear from Christians and non Christians (especially in the UK and Europe) on their thoughts of the Archbishop of Canterbury's comments about adopting Muslim Sharia Law.

BBC NEWS | Politics | Williams under fire in Sharia row

Also, I came across this Channel 4 video which shows the abuse Christians suffer at the hands of Muslims in Egypt. It really is quite appalling how badly Muslims treat unbelievers in their own countries yet demand to be treated fairly in Christian cultures. Western countries always give in yet the Muslims don't reciprocate...I think it's time our leaders put their foot down and stood up to Muslim bullying.

YouTube - Egypt ; Treatment of Christians 1 of 3.
YouTube - Egypt ; Treatment of Christians 2 of 3
YouTube - Egypt ; Treatment of Christians 3 of 3

Show details here:
Channel 4 - News - Egypt's Rubbish People

[Zelig]

The archbishop is a nut, but it's not as if he's particularly relevant in Britain, so it doesn't really matter anyway.

I can't see the sharia law thing going over any better in Britain than it did in Ontario.

edit: And FWIW, as many Muslims in Britain oppose Sharia law as those who support it.

edit2: And should have posted a source for that, here's some pretty graphs and stuff: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/grap...aria119big.jpg

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by Zelig

The archbishop is a nut, but it's not as if he's particularly relevant in Britain, so it doesn't really matter anyway.

That's not what I've seen in articles posted on other forums, they show an emerging trend of Muslims demanding the UK conform to their beliefs; it's political correctness gone bad.

edit: And FWIW, as many Muslims in Britain oppose Sharia law as those who support it.

I hope so, the Muslim population in the UK is rising quickly eventually they're going to have much more say in these matters. I don't understand why they'd go to Britain if they didn't want to be a part of a secular society.

[Maddogg6]

Chat11.com: Hamtramck Michigan Islamic Call To Prayer

This town used to be refered to as 'Pol Town' - from the large number of polish immigrants - now, the muslim call for prayer is also heard.(the

'ALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALA LALALALALALALALALALALALALALALALLALA'

The arguments *for* it is; If a church can have bells that 'tells time' - so can a mosque. Tho it seems a PA is more economical solution for Islam ??

Most non muslim, athiests included, would find a church bell less audibly offensive - as it is also a tribute to our liberties (re: Liberty Bell).

When I am at home, I *like* the sound of a bell - I get annoyed at sounds of loud/obnoxious people however. Be it a hoedown, an auctioneer, or a call to islam prayer. We can safely assume the first 2 would never be imposed upon us here, certainly not 5 times a day every day, but the latter????

I hope the local church here stops ringing their bell - as much as I *like* it - I dont want it to be used as the justification like in Hamtramck.

[Esaz666]

i`ve not being around these parts for a while
but anyway , i have enjoyed reading this thread,

It is pointless to try and define god into a human idea of god,
we can only negatively define it by our own terms,
God ( which as a term is loaded by 1000's of years of misinformation )
can only be experienced and not defined.

The books our cultures have created with devine revelation,
have to be viewed in respect to the culture they come through,
as the vessel (person) can only explaine things in their own way - can only see through their own cultural viewpoint.How can a person describe
something other than things known unto them.

To dismiss religion is an inteligent thing to do, after all we live in
a scientific age, but we as people with our very limited capacities
can only try our best to understand.

Love is the key, forget about the label , islam , christian , hundu.I myself have the greatest respect for people trying to live a good life, belief is usefull towards that but not essential. When we leave our current incarnations, it would be usefull to have some idea of what we would be aiming towards.Religion can only point the way, it is not the answer.

I could tell you of experiences I have had and continue to have ,they are relevent but require belief, this is important, were you to beleve me would that make you gullible and easy for me to exploit?, why trust in anything that cannot be proven?, trust and you could start to really learn something about existance or just remain closed within the limit of your ego's understanding, it doesent matter which choice you make,we have much time to learn.

We are all one with the spiritual force of the universe and part of it,
I have only experienced this reality, but again i see things in my own way,
trust what i say or don't , just live a good life and treat others with the upmost respect , that is all that really matters.

[OmegaRED]

It is pointless to try and define god into a human idea of god,
we can only negatively define it by our own terms,
God ( which as a term is loaded by 1000's of years of misinformation )
can only be experienced and not defined.

I disagree, man created God and anything man creates can be defined as well as destroyed.

Once we strip away our imaginary friends and institutions created to worship them all we're left with is reality. I don't think love is the key to anything, this is just too wishy washy for me and totally unrealistic in any sense.

[Mousey]

Apply basic physics and you've just dumped on christianity.
Because heaven is supposedly in the clouds, the atmospheric pressure would make it freezing cold all day and even colder at night basically unsurvivable temperatures. Also you can't have any fun because all you can do is pray.
Hell however, is down by the earth's core (apparently) which again would be unsurvivable but i think i'd rather burn up quickly than freeze to death up in the clouds.

Sinning, again a load of bs.
If alcoholism is a sin, why are people given wine in churches. (It happens a fair bit up in skipton, i've seen blokes come out of a church on a morning swaying, i'm there pretty early for my pk training.)
Adultery is supposedly a sin, why are christians of some branches running round having a fuck load of kids with people they don't know?

If religion is about love, peace and acceptance; how come gays and lesbians of any kind (or bisexuals for that matter) are shunned from the church and called devils/scum?
More people have gone to war in the name of god, than they have for political issues such as money, or oil. George Bush began the war on iraq because it was "the christian thing to do", i believe it clearly says in the bible Thou Shalt not kill? If you want a reason to be a hypocrite, just say you're a christian.

[digerati]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

I don't see why Link would care about the Catholic church as that's not his religion.

[rant]If God wanted me to believe in Him then He should not have given me the intelligence to be a critical thinker. Would He not want us to be intelligent enough to be wary of false prophets and those claiming to know the word of God? Surely God would speak directly to people if he wants to convince them not by proxy. Remember, it's only a Revelation when you hear it, after that it's just hearsay.

If God does exist I think he'd be ashamed at the sheer laziness of his followers. At some point in your lives a parent, priest, rabbi, imam or teacher told you that God exists and you believed it. Until then, you had no belief but accepted the first God that was offered to you. Just once, I'd like to hear about someone that spent most of their life searching for a God and gave all faiths proper examination before making a decision.[/rant]

Yo.

[Sandok]

HOLY S***, this thread is still alive? Noooo!

[Esaz666]

LoL-its never ending!

The man created god, is a product of belief, if that is what someone holds, then that is all he has - belief, a product of the mind.
but there is a force within the universe, a force , call it Ch'i energy - it is a conscious form of energy , this is what can be experienced.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by Esaz666

LoL-its never ending!

The man created god, is a product of belief, if that is what someone holds, then that is all he has - belief, a product of the mind.
but there is a force within the universe, a force , call it Ch'i energy - it is a conscious form of energy , this is what can be experienced.

Stop talking crap.

You realize you sound like some sort of Jedi wannabe?

[Esaz666]

no worries, I did not expect you to consider my statement in detail,
I hope you are at peace, but it is good to remain open to new ideas.
There are things that people in everyday life and science do not even
approach , i dont claim to know, i have just experienced.

It is good to know that religion and the spiritual are not one and the same,
I do remember talking about these subjects with you before, maybe a few years back but i allways very much enjoy the debate

It is also good to seek knowledge that you yourself can discover, most knowledge we take for granted in our western culture is borrowed , ie- someone else's, who's to say that it is precise, the scientist (who may work on behalf of a big corporation or drug company), the politician, who do you trust to be truthfull?

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by Esaz666

no worries, I did not expect you to consider my statement in detail,
I hope you are at peace, but it is good to remain open to new ideas.
There are things that people in everyday life and science do not even
approach , i dont claim to know, i have just experienced.

It is good to know that religion and the spiritual are not one and the same,
I do remember talking about these subjects with you before, maybe a few years back but i allways very much enjoy the debate

It is also good to seek knowledge that you yourself can discover, most knowledge we take for granted in our western culture is borrowed , ie- someone else's, who's to say that it is precise, the scientist (who may work on behalf of a big corporation or drug company), the politician, who do you trust to be truthfull?

I trust the scientific method over unproven and unreliable "experiences" that people have. In matters of spirituality and God there is no knowledge available for you to seek, it is unknowable and anything you do discover is pure imagination.

[digerati]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

I trust the scientific method over unproven and unreliable "experiences" that people have. In matters of spirituality and God there is no knowledge available for you to seek, it is unknowable and anything you do discover is pure imagination.

There is no knowledge available? I'm sorry, but there is lots of information and knowledge available, it's just not the kind of knowledge you're willing to accept because it can't be proven in a way you find satisfactory. Yet I'm sure you're willing to just accept a few things because there are no explanations for them. For example, why are you alive, when the atoms you are made out of, are not.

[Sandok]

Originally Posted by digerati

Yet I'm sure you're willing to just accept a few things because there are no explanations for them. For example, why are you alive, when the atoms you are made out of, are not.

There are explanations for that... An atom is the building block for life, and for everything else so well, let me put it this way.

Most buildings are made of bricks and together, they form something called a house for example. Individually, they are nothing but together, they offer shelter, insulation, structural support, etc. Same with atoms, alone they are nothing but when put together correctly, they use energy for mouvement, reproduction, etc, which is defined as life

[digerati]

Originally Posted by Sandok

There are explanations for that... An atom is the building block for life, and for everything else so well, let me put it this way.

Most buildings are made of bricks and together, they form something called a house for example. Individually, they are nothing but together, they offer shelter, insulation, structural support, etc. Same with atoms, alone they are nothing but when put together correctly, they use energy for mouvement, reproduction, etc, which is defined as life

That still doesn't explain the difference between a chair and a human. Both are made of atoms, both are only their unique thing because of their exact structure/buildup, but one is alive and one isn't. And science can't really explain why, and they can't make a life on their own, they can only clone something that's already living. If it was simply a matter of just putting atoms in the right order, you'd think they would have done that already.

[Mousey]

Originally Posted by digerati

That still doesn't explain the difference between a chair and a human. Both are made of atoms, both are only their unique thing because of their exact structure/buildup, but one is alive and one isn't. And science can't really explain why, and they can't make a life on their own, they can only clone something that's already living. If it was simply a matter of just putting atoms in the right order, you'd think they would have done that already.

Fair enough you've got us there, but religion explains this how...

[digerati]

Originally Posted by Mousey

Fair enough you've got us there, but religion explains this how...

Consider the age of all the major religions, then consider what they say, and WHY they say it.

Genesis 2:7the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

God's word was given to man in a way he could understand relative to the time and surroundings. Therefore scripture was made to be understood by man, and at the same time, gave us just enough information, as much as we needed to know. This scripture was written how many thousands of years ago? Look at the choice of words, man was made from the DUST of the ground. What's the significance? Ground/dirt is not typically seen as a living substance, especially in an area of the world that is mostly desert. Notice that dust is chosen instead of dirt, because dust is finer than dirt, in fact, you might say that dust is probably the smallest thing people had a word for during that time. So God tells us in the Torah that he made man out of very fine specks that were not alive, and breathed life into us. Seems as explained as it could get given the time and place of the people.

[OmegaRED]

I love how this guy gets all picky with science and how we can't trust it but believes some invisible man in the sky made us from dust. Substitute "Unicorn" or "Goblin" for God and you have the same level of ridiculousness. No proof, just imagination.

[Sandok]

Originally Posted by digerati

That still doesn't explain the difference between a chair and a human. Both are made of atoms, both are only their unique thing because of their exact structure/buildup, but one is alive and one isn't. And science can't really explain why, and they can't make a life on their own, they can only clone something that's already living. If it was simply a matter of just putting atoms in the right order, you'd think they would have done that already.

Ignore Mousey, you haven't got me

It is ALL about making the atoms spaced out correctly... If I take another example, steel is used in many items but only under certain circumstances will it constitute a car or a PC case... Otherwise, no. If an atom is placed in such a way to make life, it'll make life. If it's placed differently, then it won't.

Atoms are building blocks and you can make MANY things with building blocks.

Now why can't we make life? Well have you seen at atom? It's too small for us to use, far too small. We have actually "never" seen one before, even though we know they exist, so how do you expect us, with our horrible 21st century technology to use something we can't see?

You see, there is always an answer to everything.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by Sandok

Ignore Mousey, you haven't got me

It is ALL about making the atoms spaced out correctly... If I take another example, steel is used in many items but only under certain circumstances will it constitute a car or a PC case... Otherwise, no. If an atom is placed in such a way to make life, it'll make life. If it's placed differently, then it won't.

Atoms are building blocks and you can make MANY things with building blocks.

Now why can't we make life? Well have you seen at atom? It's too small for us to use, far too small. We have actually "never" seen one before, even though we know they exist, so how do you expect us, with our horrible 21st century technology to use something we can't see?

You see, there is always an answer to everything.

Thanks for the informative answer.

[digerati]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

I love how this guy gets all picky with science and how we can't trust it but believes some invisible man in the sky made us from dust. Substitute "Unicorn" or "Goblin" for God and you have the same level of ridiculousness. No proof, just imagination.

Did I ever say you couldn't trust science? As a history major I remained faithless almost all of my life, studying about different cultures, faiths, and how they died out for various reasons. Every culture in ancient times had their own Gods, and their God died with them. But the God of the Jews didn't, in fact, it spread over the world. The Christians, the Muslims, same God. You asked for someone who had been wondering and searching faith their whole lives to post, and here I am. If there's one thing I've noticed, it's that whatever God wants to happen, happens. And he seems to be set on making sure the world knows of Him, as much as we try and erase him.

Science is an amazing thing, it explains so much and has improved our lives in ways never even thought possible. But it is NOT the answer to everything, in the last 2,000 years, how much has things of "science" changed, the so called "facts." When they used to treat male STDs with mercury and ended up poisening them to death. Or how about the flatness of the world? Earth the center of the universe? How about something more recent, AIDS being a gay only disease, we can go at this all night. Science requires more faith than anything else because it can and does change every moment. You have to put faith in your doctor that this new treatment will actually help you rather than hurt you. That this new product will actually do as it claims.

No one is saying that you have to believe in God, or that science doesn't matter and it should all depend on God. Personally I think those parents who don't take their kids to the hospital because they think God will heal them are out of their fracking mind. God's who you turn to when there's nowhere else to go, when there's no science that can help you, heal you, complete you.

I used to pity people who believed in God, believed they were mindless trolls, pawns of their respective church. That they needed something to believe in because they couldn't handle normal living, or that they weren't educated enough to understand science. Or maybe they were just raised in a religious home and now they've been brainwashed so bad they just can't help themselves. But that isn't the case, at least not for me. I don't belong to any church, I'm a UCLA student, and my entire family is faithless.

I don't know where you're getting this no proof ridiculous idea from. I think denying any kind of higher power is ludicrous. So much faith in the world, and there's no God behind it? People are ingrained with a pretty standard set of moral codes, and there's no God behind it? We haven't destroyed ourselves yet? And there's no God behind it? lol

Ignore Mousey, you haven't got me

It is ALL about making the atoms spaced out correctly... If I take another example, steel is used in many items but only under certain circumstances will it constitute a car or a PC case... Otherwise, no. If an atom is placed in such a way to make life, it'll make life. If it's placed differently, then it won't.

Atoms are building blocks and you can make MANY things with building blocks.

Now why can't we make life? Well have you seen at atom? It's too small for us to use, far too small. We have actually "never" seen one before, even though we know they exist, so how do you expect us, with our horrible 21st century technology to use something we can't see?

You see, there is always an answer to everything.

The same way we use microwaves and ray guns silly

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by digerati

Did I ever say you couldn't trust science? As a history major I remained faithless almost all of my life, studying about different cultures, faiths, and how they died out for various reasons. Every culture in ancient times had their own Gods, and their God died with them. But the God of the Jews didn't, in fact, it spread over the world. The Christians, the Muslims, same God. You asked for someone who had been wondering and searching faith their whole lives to post, and here I am. If there's one thing I've noticed, it's that whatever God wants to happen, happens. And he seems to be set on making sure the world knows of Him, as much as we try and erase him.

Did you not find it even coincidental that Christianity takes so many things from previous religions and rolled it all into one? Virgin birth, messiah, afterlife, resurrection, etc it's all been done before Christianity or Judaism existed. The fact that one religion became more popular does not make it any more factual than the hundreds that died out before it. You should know this if you've studied enough ancient cultures.

Science is an amazing thing, it explains so much and has improved our lives in ways never even thought possible. But it is NOT the answer to everything, in the last 2,000 years, how much has things of "science" changed, the so called "facts." When they used to treat male STDs with mercury and ended up poisening them to death. Or how about the flatness of the world? Earth the center of the universe? How about something more recent, AIDS being a gay only disease, we can go at this all night. Science requires more faith than anything else because it can and does change every moment. You have to put faith in your doctor that this new treatment will actually help you rather than hurt you. That this new product will actually do as it claims.

Unlike religion, which is based on archaic scriptures which never evolve, scientific knowledge is an ongoing process.

Scientific method refers to the body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation, experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.

There are hundreds of thousands of drugs and medical advances which have resulted because of the scientific method. How many diseases has God eradicated? None, zip, zilch, nada...zero.

No one is saying that you have to believe in God, or that science doesn't matter and it should all depend on God. Personally I think those parents who don't take their kids to the hospital because they think God will heal them are out of their fracking mind. God's who you turn to when there's nowhere else to go, when there's no science that can help you, heal you, complete you.

Fear of death will make people turn to anything that can save them, whether it's a scam artist selling miracle cures or the church. It won't matter whether you turn to Allah, Yahweh, God, Zeus or Thor the result will always be the same. You will get from it what you want. This may be comforting to people but it does not make it real.

I don't know where you're getting this no proof ridiculous idea from. I think denying any kind of higher power is ludicrous. So much faith in the world, and there's no God behind it? People are ingrained with a pretty standard set of moral codes, and there's no God behind it? We haven't destroyed ourselves yet? And there's no God behind it? lol

Which God? Your God? My God? If there's one real God and all the rest are fake than why doesn't He come forward and reveal himself to all of humanity in ways that are undeniable? So far the best all the Gods have been able to do is some old writings. Wow...mighty impressive for the creator of the Universe

There is so much that has been previously credited to God that we now know has a scientific explanation, this puts egg in the faces of Church leaders constantly and it will always be this way.

We do not get our morals from God (thankfully!), there is tons of information on how we evolved our social skills. Go find it yourself with Google.

If God is the explanation for things of which there is no evidence whatsoever then how can I argue with this? Humanity isn't extinct...God did it! We don't rape and murder everyone...God did it! This is simply just lazy and unimaginative thinking.