The debate religion thread!

[LordLink]

Perfect readings much faster that hearing

pfff I'm starting to feel like the chinese monks when they say things like "Never let hatred darken the primary reason of your heart"

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Also... Something I notice.... on the news - they have shown Iraqi's talking - and of course I don't understand a word - except one - they will clearly say the name 'Bush' - which leads me to believe that proper names aren't translated..

But yet... those passages show quite a few 'translated' proper names... why is this?

It leads me to beleive that the translations to english are not genuine.
Does that make sense?

so - for the same reason you **edited** your assertion about god and jesus mentioned in the quran - seem to be a disingenuous translation...

And it would make sense that if there are multiple version of the quran - those passage become moot when talking about the differences in views of god between chritians and muslims...

in other words - you have asserted that all 3 religions are based on mohamad - and no one seem to dispute that - but you seem to be pointing out that - because jesus and mary are mentioned in the quran - we can all live in peace together (which as we see first hand here - isnt the case if you take a literal translation of any holy scripture... )

Bush is a name that doesn't exist in arabic, Jesus and Mary have equivalents in arabic. Why? Because Jesus and Mary were not speaking english or latin (must see Kevin Costner's The Passion of the Christ lol) and those names are latin translations of the real names that are (in Quran and of course arabic) Isā and Maryam

There's a lot more verses about Judaism and Christianity (there's more than 6000 verses in Quran) I can give you just hints and sorry again for the confusion
The three religions are not based on Muhamed but what came in Quran is believing the other 2 books before him but it's said they were changed and the fact is that it's the Bible that got many versions not the Quran

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

well - isnt context *also* very important...
Consider: (its a humorous example - use '+++' as a pause in speaking as it completely changes the meaning in what is said)

'Whats this thing called +++ love'
VS
'Whats this thing called love'

Ok its out there - I admit - but it perfectly illustrates 'context' - and would you agree that reading only 'parts' of *anything* -- will *likely* leave out 'context'?

(I'll have to re-read those passages - as I am not really getting for it that muslims have a different idea of god than the christians. - Or at least the way I am interpreting them anyway - which btw - who had translated these passage to english? It obviously wasnt written in english - correct?)

And - am I correct in assuming you are muslim?

or was that part of the direct quote?

edit:
Does this mean the first ones were not relavant...??

/edit

I was copy/pasting that's why you saw the peace upon him message and yes I'm a muslim and no all verses are relevant but I found it interesting because it said "We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers (prophets)"

[Maddogg6]

1) Those passages - dont really seem to extinguish my assertion that you contradicted yourself.
2) Which translation are you going by?
Re as found in your link - and what I believe Omega referred to as 'versions' of the quran

To go to the Quran browser and compare 5 different translations click here :

I am the same - a different translation = a different version.

3) How could extremists muslims *possibly* interpret... 'Kill infidels and receive XXX virgins in heaven after I read this..

[21:6] We never annihilated a believing community in the past. Are these people believers?

ps I used sarcasm before - this clearly, to me, would incite violence.
As I interpret - its ok to annihilate non-believers....
Please tell my why I should continue reading the quran?

[OmegaRED]

First 20 or so pages ...they're labeled 'page1-2 , page20-21' etc

[OmegaRED]

page 7-8

[LordLink]

I begun hearing the audiobook and wow it's a revelation I'm now free as in freeware

Hmm I still have some doubts and it's too late now, I can't concentrate anymore
nooooooooooooo

Thanks for the scans I'll read them tomorrow and for today good night

[Maddogg6]

Ok - all this is fine and dandy.... I still dont get how those passages you posted clears you of the contradiction I pointed out....

Here are facts at hand....
But all three religions will preach to get along with one another... yet - the middle east has been a hot bed of violence since I can remember...

So reguardless of whos scriptures say what - the reality is that all three have been at violent odds for decades that I know of....

It boils down that - all scripture is open for interpretations (you are interpreting the interpretations differently than I) - and when things like money, land resources are at stake - all sides prove that they will take the translation that justifies violence...

So - go and quote all the passages you would like - I can intepret all of them the way I would like depending on what I wish. And for me- that is the real problem - I wonder why it isnt a problem for more people....

[Maddogg6]

There's a lot more verses about Judaism and Christianity (there's more than 6000 verses in Quran) I can give you just hints and sorry again for the confusion

well - I dont have too much interest in debating the differences and similarities of different religions, especially when points you make tend to not be clear and direct...

But it does bring up another strong argument against *all* religions I am at least familiar with...

Its too much of a coincidence and contradiction that the jewish book of scriptures was written by god in their native tongue - and so was the quran...
So - why has not god plopped his words down in america, in *our* native tongue (english)?

The most obvious answer is that they were written by man/men in their own language.
I mean - an all knowing entity would surely foresee doubts raised because of the translations. (not to mention, interpretations)

The same god wrote in hebrew for jews - then in aribic for muslims- ???
Sure seems like the guy writing the quran wrote passages that would appeal to jews and christians, knowing converting is almost impossible as it is - as demonstrated here in these forums. And to have 'similarities' would certainly make conversion easier.
Isnt the muslims on a quest to convert the world to islam? (as was judaism and chritianity)

All this argument of semantics in scripture detracts from these very significant and basic facts that are more difficult to argue - when passages of scripture can be argued till the end of time over their translation, much less their interpretations... (which, god would surely have forseen)

edit:
an argument that the bible is authentic is..

No human beings could have planned such an intricate combination of books over a 1,500-year time span.

Well - how many people have been given the opportunity to inspect these anchient writings - who were *not* already beleivers?
How do *I* go about requesting such opportunity?
/edit.

more edit - look at shakespere - pretty old and intricate writing - so - I dont accept that argument as 'proof' of anything, when - to find those who can emulate styles of writing is not that hard. Especially if there is motivation to do so.
What motivation you may ask....
Well - to write something and claim it to be the word of god that potentially millions would read, and live their lives by - is very powerful. And we know many people lust for power since caveman dave bonked cave man joe over the head to steal his woman and food.

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

well - I dont have too much interest in debating the differences and similarities of different religions, especially when points you make tend to not be clear and direct...

But it does bring up another strong argument against *all* religions I am at least familiar with...

Its too much of a coincidence and contradiction that the jewish book of scriptures was written by god in their native tongue - and so was the quran...
So - why has not god plopped his words down in america, in *our* native tongue (english)?

The most obvious answer is that they were written by man/men in their own language.
I mean - an all knowing entity would surely foresee doubts raised because of the translations. (not to mention, interpretations)

The same god wrote in hebrew for jews - then in aribic for muslims- ???
Sure seems like the guy writing the quran wrote passages that would appeal to jews and christians, knowing converting is almost impossible as it is - as demonstrated here in these forums. And to have 'similarities' would certainly make conversion easier.
Isnt the muslims on a quest to convert the world to islam? (as was judaism and chritianity)

All this argument of semantics in scripture detracts from these very significant and basic facts that are more difficult to argue - when passages of scripture can be argued till the end of time over their translation, much less their interpretations... (which, god would surely have forseen)

edit:
an argument that the bible is authentic is..

Well - how many people have been given the opportunity to inspect these anchient writings - who were *not* already beleivers?
How do *I* go about requesting such opportunity?
/edit.

more edit - look at shakespere - pretty old and intricate writing - so - I dont accept that argument as 'proof' of anything, when - to find those who can emulate styles of writing is not that hard. Especially if there is motivation to do so.
What motivation you may ask....
Well - to write something and claim it to be the word of god that potentially millions would read, and live their lives by - is very powerful. And we know many people lust for power since caveman dave bonked cave man joe over the head to steal his woman and food.

The words in the books are from God: when you say God can't write in 2 or 3 languages how come a Human can learn more than that
The interpreters of the words of God are humans and God can't be blamed if they interprete it the wrong way as God gave warnings in His books not to do that

The proof of the authenticity of Quran is not just in it's style: like I said before there's more than 6000 verses in which more than a 1000 speak of science
Keep in mind that these scientific facts were revealed about 1400 years ago when there were a lot of scientific misconceptions and errors

* a concept of the creation of the world which, while different from the ideas contained in the Bible, is fully in keeping with today's general theories on the formations of the universe;

* statements that are in perfect agreement with today's ideas concerning the movements and evolution of the heavenly bodies;

* a prediction of the conquest of space;

* notions concerning the water cycle in nature and the earth's relief, which were not proven correct until many centuries later.

I'l give one example:
"Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?"

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

1) Those passages - dont really seem to extinguish my assertion that you contradicted yourself.
2) Which translation are you going by?
Re as found in your link - and what I believe Omega referred to as 'versions' of the quran

I am the same - a different translation = a different version.

3) How could extremists muslims *possibly* interpret... 'Kill infidels and receive XXX virgins in heaven after I read this..

ps I used sarcasm before - this clearly, to me, would incite violence.
As I interpret - its ok to annihilate non-believers....
Please tell my why I should continue reading the quran?

2) I bring my tranlations from here it's not the best tranlation but it's the easiest (yeah I'm lazy)

ok if you refer to translations as versions then you're right but the one and only source is the original arabic Quran
its somehow logical because 2 translators can't translate the same text the same way and especially Quran where you find verses that have very deep meanings that have to choose what to say because it's translating the meaning not the text.

3) there's no 'Kill infidels and receive XXX virgins in heaven...' in Quran, and to tell you the truth I knew that from a french on man show just like you so I guess it's some extremist propaganda.
You have to understand that extremists don't give a f*** about Quran or Islam, they just use it to get to power. What they want is to receive XXX virgins on earth and not in heaven. The executors are brainwashed by the rulers.
Please tell my why I should continue reading the quran? then stop reading
it's up to you to interprete it literally but it's not working like that
Quran didn't came in one time book, it was coming verse by verse in a 20 years period and a lot of verses came to give signs (sign is the real translation to "āya" verse) to believers -> they're related to a special time/event
Like for example the verses of jihad are all from the period when they were preparing to fight Quraysh and Khaybar, imagine less than 2000 men winning battle against more than 10000
Islam is the religion of PEACE just like Cristianity & Judaism before it. Mohamed PBUH is the most influencial man in history. No one in the history of mankind waited till the age of 40 and then started.
You shouldn't continue reading Quran if you're going to interprete each verse on its own be sure it's just what it's said not to do
Chapter Baqarah [3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - which constitute the essence of the scripture - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

[OmegaRED]

You are delusional Lordlink, the Koran is filled with imperfections and self-contradictions.

I'll quote a few things from Ibn Warraq (which I scanned and posted already):

The doctrine of abrogation also makes a mockery of the Muslim dogma that the Koran is a faithful and unalterable reproduction of the original scriptures that are preserved in heaven. If God's words are eternal, uncreated, and of universal significance, then how come we talk of God's words being superseded or becoming obsolete? Are some of the words of God to be preferred to other words of God? Apparently yes. According to Muir, some 200 verses have been canceled by later ones. Thus we have the strange situation where the entire Koran is recited as the word of God, and yet there are passages that can be considered not "true"; in other words, 3 percent of the Koran is acknowledged as falsehood.

And again I'll paraphrase him:

Up to 275 words in that Koran are considered foreign, not Arabic, even the word "Koran" comes from Syriac and Muhammad got it from Christian sources.

The Koran is also contradictory in its account of Creation:

"Two days for the earth, four days for the nourishment, and two days for the seven heavens make eight days (sura 41), whereas in sura 50 we are told the creation took six days."

It's utter bullshit that the Koran is in line with modern scientific views:

"Since Muslims still take the Koranic account literally, I am duty bound to point out how it does not accord with modern scientific opinion on the origins of the universe and life on earth. Even on its own terms the Koranic account is inconsistent and full of absurdities.

We have already noted the contradictions in the number of days for the creation.Allah merely has to say "Be," and His will is accomplished, and yet it takes the Almighty six days to create the heavens. Also, how could there have been "days" before the creation of the earth and the sun, since a "day" is merely the time the earth takes to make a revolution on its axis?

I'm not going to plagiarize his book any further, just know that there isn't a single one of your arguments he hasn't defeated.

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Up to 275 words in that Koran are considered foreign, not Arabic, even the word "Koran" comes from Syriac and Muhammad got it from Christian sources.

The Koran is also contradictory in its account of Creation:

"Two days for the earth, four days for the nourishment, and two days for the seven heavens make eight days (sura 41), whereas in sura 50 we are told the creation took six days."

It's false that "Quran" is a foreign word in Arabic, the verb for "to read" in Arabic is "Qaraa" and "read" is "Iqraa" so "Quran" is something meant to be read, something that you have to read -> Quran, it's absolutly not foreign

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

It's utter bullshit that the Koran is in line with modern scientific views:

"Since Muslims still take the Koranic account literally, I am duty bound to point out how it does not accord with modern scientific opinion on the origins of the universe and life on earth. Even on its own terms the Koranic account is inconsistent and full of absurdities.

We have already noted the contradictions in the number of days for the creation.Allah merely has to say "Be," and His will is accomplished, and yet it takes the Almighty six days to create the heavens.

Also, how could there have been "days" before the creation of the earth and the sun, since a "day" is merely the time the earth takes to make a revolution on its axis?

Chapter Haj [22:47] They challenge you to bring retribution, and GOD never fails to fulfill His prophecy. A day of your Lord is like a thousand of your years.

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

I'm not going to plagiarize his book any further, just know that there isn't a single one of your arguments he hasn't defeated.

You see those arguments are FALSE and I'm not an expert in Islam and I can easily find the counter arguments of what that Ibn Warraq pretends to be contradictions.

Plus I read the pages you posted and there's a lot of false interpretations in it:
First quote from the book "When a muslim dogmatically asserts that the Koran is the word of God, we need only ask "Which Koran?" to undermine his certainty."

THIS IS BLATENTLY FALSE

All muslims recognise only one version of Quran but there's serveral "readings" (7 readings that you can pray with and additional 7 that you can only recite with)
What I mean by "readings": for example take the sentence "Give me a real powerful graphic card for me to enjoy the latest games" then add punctuation "Give me a real powerful graphic card, for me, to enjoy the latest games" another reading "Give me a, real powerful, graphic card for me to enjoy the latest games" and another reading "Give me a real powerful graphic card for me, to enjoy the latest games"
In arabic it's sometimes possible to change the meaning with punctuation but for the 7 readings that you can pray with the meanings are not changed and the rules of classical Arabic are respected.

Another quote "The Devil is said to be named Azazil and was created of fire and was created of fire ... one wonders if the devil is not more powerful."

That proves on thing: the author has never been muslim. ALL MUSLIMS know that the Devils name is "Iblīs" and not "Azazil" as in the quote and the Devil is powerful on earth because God accepted to let him on earth until the judgement day
[7:14] (Iblīs) He said, "Grant me a respite, until the Day of Resurrection."
[7:15] (Allāh) He said, "You are granted a respite."
So the Devil can do whatever he wants on earth to make humans fall from the rght until the Day of Resurrection.

Another quote "Muslim writers are unanimous in asserting that no religion toleration was extended to the idolaters of arabia in the time of the Prophet. The only choice given them was death or the reception of Islam."

FALSE: at that time you was able to practice the religion you want in the land of Islam, the only downside was you had to pay an additional tax but you didn't had to go to fight in the army. If you don't want to pay you leave it's simple.


I can go on like that but I now have a clearer idea on this book. There a lot of generalising, false arguments, half truths and philosophical reasoning based on these arguments.

[OmegaRED]

Unfortunately for us, there's not a lot of ex-Muslims around to back him up. You could pretty much say whatever you want about The Koran and we won't know if you're making it up.

[LordLink]

Thats where we got to the point that the author knows that there's not a lot of ex muslims and that if he writes something like "Quran is the word of God and Islam is the religion of peace" do you thing you were going to buy it?

I doubt it so that's why I was saying it's purely commercial and I think you mentioned it's not his first book so he's on win-win situation: He writes what most peaple want to read and he get a lot of money, isn't it all good

You see we have a lot of books (more than enough) depicting really Quran's verses and some of the authors saw their books burned when they released them and this is across 1400 years. There was even something called the "science of speaking" where the most famous matter was their debate if Quran was a creature or not.

This kind of debate leads to nowhere, in the end you need some faith to believe in something and if you have a strong faith in atheism then you are done with the subject.

The one and only truth is that humans need to believe in something: that's why in the history they had always something to believe in and it's still going on

[cozumel]

I just had to enter the fray as this appears to have developed into a debate between those who may have read the Quran and those who have not.

The Quran, like the Torah and the Christian bible contain a number of very positive morals and principals that all of mankind should follow. Now the fact that some politicians and others chose to corrupt the words contained in the Quran does not make Islam bad. There is no such thing as an evil muslim. But there are evil people.

The newpapers and media in most western countries (and many politicians) routinely lie about what is written within the Quran as it sells their products. The only way to find the truth is to read all of the Quran yourself. I have read many fundamentalist magazines that a daughter of a friend kept before they left for Afghanistan in the late 1990s. The fundamentalist magazines leave me with the same disgust as many European and US newspapers. They are based on lies and distortions of the truth.

I do not follow any religion but have read (and own) a Quran and the Old Testament. I can't be bothered to read the new testament as it will probably just contain the same morals though I realise that this may be ignorant of me.