[Falstaff]

You know this thread is precisely why religious debate should be the province of those that believe in something beyond what we see, hear, taste and feel. and what we google.

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by Zelig

Everyone does not have the same DNA, only identical twins have the same DNA... I'm not sure what you're getting at here. And individuals' DNA does not change or adapt throughout there lifetime, the DNA of any individual is fixed from birth to death.

If you're saying that everyone simply has differing alleles, that's false in any case, look up SETMAR for a recent human gene that did not exist in recent human ancestors.
SETMAR at wiki
Easy guide to the evolution of SETMAR


Large evolutionary steps take millions of years, after which relatively little evidence is laid out in obvious and chronological order.

Yeah I know each human has a unique DNA but the whole Human DNA is recognisable. There won't be a Human DNA similar to a Lamb DNA. As reported on some researches the Human DNA can vary up to 12% from one another but the whole Human DNA is different by little less than 2% from Chimps.

Humans Evolved From a Single Origin In Africa

The theories on your links prove nothing they just claim it's more likely to like this or that and always using the same examples again and again

About three billion years ago, life began as simple cells. Eventually, these evolved into multicellular organisms, which then became invertebrates … These in turn evolved into vertebrates and the first fish.

That's untrue, how can a simple cell contain such complex DNA?

[Zelig]

Originally Posted by LordLink

At the time when the Quran was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

Except it wouldn't be a random guess in any case. Plato and Aristotle knew the Earth was round close to one thousand years before the Qu'ran was written. Anyone with a grasp of ancient Greek mathematics could deduce that the Earth was round, and calculate the circumference to within 10% accuracy.

Originally Posted by LordLink

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Quran rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

Or you could look at living things, and see that they're all wet. And what's the most common wet thing on Earth? Water! Everything tends to die if water is withheld, giving people a good clue that everything is going to contain some water.

[Maddogg6]

Originally Posted by Falstaff

You know this thread is precisely why religious debate should be the province of those that believe in something beyond what we see, hear, taste and feel. and what we google.

while you are certainly allowed to express your opinion - opinion only in a debate forum is hardly anything to debate on.

I liken it to some one entering town hall in the middle of a political debate - raises their hand to speak and when given opportunity, says only 'man is it loud in here or what!'.

Except it wouldn't be a random guess in any case. Plato and Aristotle knew the Earth was round close to one thousand years before the Qu'ran was written. Anyone with a grasp of ancient Greek mathematics could deduce that the Earth was round, and calculate the circumference to within 10% accuracy.

Exactly, it was *only* the faithful who would reject those notions at that time, given, they also knew if they pressed the issue they would end up exactly as Galileo - imprisoned till death, his crime was 'proving' the church wrong with evidence anyone could comprehend. But before that there was no such 'evidence' and only math that 'proved' it, and only mathematicians would understand that evidence. Religious leaders were never known as mathematicians.

The theories on your links prove nothing they just claim it's more likely to like this or that and always using the same examples again and again

The biggest difference between science and religion...
Science: 'Evidence suggests.....'
Scriptures: 'This is the way it is, god says so....'

Do you see the difference?
Imho, it becomes pointless arguing over errors in science - that *no one* would ever disagree... but they *never* say as 'fact' until its been witnessed over time and repeated results of *exact* same results.
But historically religious leaders, after science proves them wrong on any point... will 're-interpret' their scriptures to avoid conflict with *proven* science, and more importantly - to avoid loosing followers.

Science gave us pain medications while religious leaders sat back and watched the suffering continue to suffer. We fly on airplanes *despite* the religious leaders previous assertion that such 'machines are the work of true evil'.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by Falstaff

You know this thread is precisely why religious debate should be the province of those that believe in something beyond what we see, hear, taste and feel. and what we google.

Link has faith just as strong as yours yet he believes in entirely different God, Heaven, demons and creation than you do...should we let you two bicker over which invisible man in the sky is real?

Eventually someone has to step in and ask both sides to present evidence and make their case. A rational person does not accept imagination and storybooks as proof.

[Zelig]

Originally Posted by LordLink

Yeah I know each human has a unique DNA but the whole Human DNA is recognisable. There won't be a Human DNA similar to a Lamb DNA. As reported on some researches the Human DNA can vary up to 12% from one another but the whole Human DNA is different by little less than 2% from Chimps.

Human DNA does not differ by 12%, find a source for that if you want it to have any credibility.

Of course there won't be human DNA similar to lamb DNA, because humans are human, and lambs are lambs. Though that's relative, if you look it up, I'm guessing human DNA and lamb DNA are still 80%+ similar.

Originally Posted by LordLink

Humans Evolved From a Single Origin In Africa

What's the point of this link?

Originally Posted by LordLink

The theories on your links prove nothing they just claim it's more likely to like this or that and always using the same examples again and again

Well, I gave you evidence with at least dozens of different examples, you can choose to ignore it without any explanation or contradictory evidence, I can't do anything more.

Originally Posted by LordLink

That's untrue, how can a simple cell contain such complex DNA?

Who are you quoting here? I didn't type this, nor was it contained in any of my linked sources.

[OmegaRED]

Question for the Believer (of any faith):

How do you explain the fact that in the history of mankind and all of the Gods and religions which have existed there has never been a time when a God revealed themselves to the world? Not even one God out of thousands left any trace of their existence; many of them had the power to create the universe with ease but could not leave so much as a relic or icon orbiting Earth or on the Moon for us to see as proof of their existence.

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Example of the Quran's scientific knowledge :

The earth is fixed and does not move. 27:61
Allah made the stars as missiles to throw at devils. 67:5

"And hath made the moon a light"
This verse implies that the moon produces its own light, rather than reflecting light from the sun. 71:16
Someday the stars will fall. 81:2
Humans are formed from "a gushing fluid" that issues "from between the loins and the ribs." 86:5-7
Humans created from a single man. 7:189

You should have titled: Examples of stupid translators that want absolutly to make the meaning they want.
You're basing your claims on bad untrue and far from the meaning translations:

[27:61] Who is the One who made the earth habitable, caused rivers to run through it, placed on it mountains, and created a barrier between the two waters? Is it another god with GOD? Indeed, most of them do not know.

[67:5] We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell.

[71:16] He designed the moon therein to be a light, and placed the sun to be a lamp.

[81:1] When the sun is rolled.
[81:2] The stars are crashed into each other.
[81:3] The mountains are wiped out.
[81:4] The reproduction is halted.
[81:5] The beasts are summoned.
[81:6] The oceans are set aflame.
[81:7] The souls are restored to their bodies.

it's talking about the judgment day so what are you expecting?


[86:5] Let the human reflect on his creation.
[86:6] He was created from ejected liquid.
[86:7] From between the spine and the viscera.

[7:189] He created you from one person (Adam)..."


UPDATE: as I posted before:
Chapter Baqarah [3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - [COLOR="DarkOrange"]which constitute the essence of the scripture[/COLOR] - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and [COLOR="DarkOrange"]to extricate a certain meaning[/COLOR]. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by Zelig

Human DNA does not differ by 12%, find a source for that if you want it to have any credibility.

Of course there won't be human DNA similar to lamb DNA, because humans are human, and lambs are lambs. Though that's relative, if you look it up, I'm guessing human DNA and lamb DNA are still 80%+ similar.

Link

Originally Posted by Zelig

What's the point of this link?

Humans originated from one man

Originally Posted by Zelig

Who are you quoting here? I didn't type this, nor was it contained in any of my linked sources.

Darwin

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Question for the Believer (of any faith):

How do you explain the fact that in the history of mankind and all of the Gods and religions which have existed there has never been a time when a God revealed themselves to the world? Not even one God out of thousands left any trace of their existence; many of them had the power to create the universe with ease but could not leave so much as a relic or icon orbiting Earth or on the Moon for us to see as proof of their existence.

God sent too many prophets with miraculous powers but people want more.
At some point Jews had even food delivered from Heaven everyday but they wanted more.
God revealed Himself to Moïse but he went unconscious because humans in their current form can't see God.

So now after all this, we are in a test: to believe or not to believe?
It so simple because the answer is rightly after death.

The question is:
What am I loosing by believing in God? Nothing.
What's my reward after death (by the will of God of course)? Paradise.

Now the other way:
What am I gaining by not believing in God? Nothing.
What's my reward after death (by the will of God of course)? Hell.

[Zelig]

Originally Posted by LordLink

Link

That's a function of the measurement used, with CNVs as opposed to SNPs. Although different numbers are going to come out depending on what's being counted, if the same measurement techniques are used, there is always going to be more variability between the DNA of a human and a chimp than between any two humans.

Originally Posted by LordLink

Humans originated from one man

Good, you're in agreement with scientists here.

In fact, given how human population spread works, eventually, either the entire human population of the planet will be directly descendant from me, or there will be zero individuals descended from me. The same is true of any other individuals. Given enough time, the descendants of an individual either spread out to include every individual of a population, or they all die off.

Given this, and mitochondrial DNA, an estimation of the length of time since a common female ancestor can be calculated.

Originally Posted by LordLink

Darwin

I never endorsed Darwin as a credible source of information, he was significant in his time, but had nowhere near the level of accuracy and influence as say, Newton had on physics and mathematics.

That being said, single-celled organisms tend not to have complex DNA. Complex DNA evolves hand-in-hand with complex life, for the most part.

[Maddogg6]

What am I gaining by not believing in God? Nothing.

Its whet you are missing out on... religion is like a blinder - it prevents you from experiencing anything that is deemed undesirable by god.
Pre-marital sex - as long as its protected - its wonderful.

What's my reward after death (by the will of God of course)? Hell.

Can you give me *where* this exists.... why create the universe/planets if theres *another* realm in which we *could* exist in?

To me - it makes more sense that 'hell' evolved from a parable that attempted to describe guilt/regret/remorse - when such psychological ideas were not so well known as they are now. Making a baby with someone you dont *really* love likely leads to some un-resolvable regret at some level - and shame for feeling this way - it would be like 'hell' to have this conflict - thus, dont make babies out of wedlock and avoid 'hell'.

That just makes sooo much more sense to me than some mystical magical place thats unseen by everyone.

If god want us to avoid hell - he would have had the foresight to show each and everyone first hand - so we could, under free will, decide if we wanted to end up there or not. But instead - we rely on someones descriptions that go un-proven..

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by LordLink

God sent too many prophets with miraculous powers but people want more.
At some point Jews had even food delivered from Heaven everyday but they wanted more.
God revealed Himself to Abraham but he went unconscious because humans in their current form can't see God.

Or God did none of those things and they are just stories. Why would God stop giving food and revealing Himself to important people when there's no greater need it for today?

So now after all this, we are in a test: to believe or not to believe?
It so simple because the answer is rightly after death.

No one knows what awaits us after death, it could be nothing at all, therefore it matters more what we do while alive. All those years spent praising God, money spent in his name could have been spent on feeding the poor and making good things happen instead of praying for them.

The question is:
What am I loosing by believing in God? Nothing.
What's my reward after death (by the will of God of course)? Paradise.

Which God? What if you get to Paradise but it is Yahweh or Zeus? You will be punished for not believing in them. The only reason you believe in Allah is that you were born in a Muslim country, with a Muslim family and taught by Muslim clerics. Had you been born in Texas you'd be a Christian. If Allah were real he would reveal himself to all the Christians and show them the true path.

On a lighter note, I think Paradise is highly overrated. For instance, why would a man want 72 virgins? Wouldn't you rather have 72 of the most experienced prostitutes mankind has to offer? There's no diseases in Heaven after all. I think sex with 72 virgins would be more like Hell than Heaven. Also, where do these virgins come from? How come these poor girls made it to paradise as virgins and why would they want some guy to take their virginity from them against their will?

Now the other way:
What am I gaining by not believing in God? Nothing.
What's my reward after death (by the will of God of course)? Hell.

You live your life without fear of everlasting Hell. We both know that you can not rightly blasphemy Allah or his prophet Muhammad without living in extreme fear that your soul will be punished. Why would God care if you believe in Him? It does not change the fact of his existence one way or the other. You can't even ask yourself these questions because it is a sin to doubt God is it not?

[Maddogg6]

You should have titled: Examples of stupid translators that want absolutly to make the meaning they want.

Then this *can* also be true for *anyone* - no?

[OmegaRED]

You should have titled: Examples of stupid translators that want absolutly to make the meaning they want.

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Then this *can* also be true for *anyone* - no?

Oh the irony...

UPDATE: as I posted before:
Chapter Baqarah [3:7] He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses - [COLOR=DarkOrange]which constitute the essence of the scripture[/COLOR] - as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and [COLOR=DarkOrange]to extricate a certain meaning[/COLOR]. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this - all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

This is just a clever way of making excuses for contradictions and flaws in the Quran. Similar flaws exist in the Bible because both scriptures are written by flawed men and no God had any part to do with the editing.

Anyway, you can't claim my translations are incorrect if you admit there are multiple-meanings. Nor can you claim the Quran predicted many scientific discoveries when you say many of these verses are allegorical.

[Maddogg6]

Only those who possess intelligence will take heed.

Used car sales men say something very similar, and we all know what *that* trust will get you.

The moment you are open to believe *anything* with out absolute proof *is* the moment you are available for exploitation and abuse - god would understand this very fundamental fact and would never require such 'blind faith' - unless he wants others to exploit you - do you suggest this is what god wants?

If you doubt that clergy are above mis-using this trust....
news church abuse - Google Search
Note: 196,000 results....

About 240 people have been awarded more than $79 million in a class-action settlement between victims of sexual abuse by priests and other Catholic church employees and the Roman Catholic Diocese of Covington in Northern Kentucky.

243 approved for settlement

edit: added..

The Boston Archdiocese, the nation's fourth-largest, settled two cases in 2002 and 2003 for a total of $95 million, one of the largest amounts paid by a diocese to settle sexual abuse allegations.

/edit

Now - why has $79M paid out if these 240 cases are unsubstantiated (I previously seen totals worldwide, but can't find at the moment) - all cases are credited to the simple thing called 'faith'. Ie - do you really think a caring parent would knowingly expose their children to abuse of any sort? do you think they *all* are so morally bankrupt to make charges such as abuse toward their representatives in their own 'house of salvation'? No - I think not.

[OmegaRED]

I don't see why Link would care about the Catholic church as that's not his religion.

[rant]If God wanted me to believe in Him then He should not have given me the intelligence to be a critical thinker. Would He not want us to be intelligent enough to be wary of false prophets and those claiming to know the word of God? Surely God would speak directly to people if he wants to convince them not by proxy. Remember, it's only a Revelation when you hear it, after that it's just hearsay.

If God does exist I think he'd be ashamed at the sheer laziness of his followers. At some point in your lives a parent, priest, rabbi, imam or teacher told you that God exists and you believed it. Until then, you had no belief but accepted the first God that was offered to you. Just once, I'd like to hear about someone that spent most of their life searching for a God and gave all faiths proper examination before making a decision.[/rant]

[Maddogg6]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

I don't see why Link would care about the Catholic church as that's not his religion.

They were the most convenient way to support my assertion... faith = open for exploitation.

I read a couple of books on how conmen operate (one was an autobiography who fleeced hundreds of people out of millions of dollars - he was unique in that he didnt use the typical 'greed of victim' to exploit them - he used 'faith' aka 'trust') - and man, was *that* a revelation - to see all the parallels in his/their scams and how you hear/see religions operate at their core.

Trust:assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something

Faith: complete trust

Paraphrased....
'Make assertions, and pressure victim as to prevent them from investigating the validity of their assertion.'

'The Qor'an is true, and to question it means damnation'

They sound remarkably identical to me.

edit:
Here is a clear contridiction...

God revealed Himself to Abraham but he went unconscious because humans in their current form can't see God.

Are you saying god has limits to his ability/powers? But I hear he is all powerful.

25:54 And He it is Who hath created man from water, and hath appointed for him kindred by blood and kindred by marriage; for thy Lord is ever Powerful.

= Contradiction.
If he is all powerful - he *could* appear in a way that doesn't cause unconsciousness.

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Its whet you are missing out on... religion is like a blinder - it prevents you from experiencing anything that is deemed undesirable by god.
Pre-marital sex - as long as its protected - its wonderful.

If you're so norrow minded to think people here are missing something then you're watching TV too much.

There's no angels on earth and religion is not preventing you, it's warning you like parents warn their children.

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Can you give me *where* this exists.... why create the universe/planets if theres *another* realm in which we *could* exist in?

Technically it's still not created but will be as soon as this word is destroyed. Life will begin again but with another rules.

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

If god want us to avoid hell - he would have had the foresight to show each and everyone first hand - so we could, under free will, decide if we wanted to end up there or not. But instead - we rely on someones descriptions that go un-proven..

If it is so then it's not a test. It's all in front of your eyes and you're failing to see. You didn't even read: it's biase.

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Or God did none of those things and they are just stories. Why would God stop giving food and revealing Himself to important people when there's no greater need it for today?
No one knows what awaits us after death, it could be nothing at all, therefore it matters more what we do while alive. All those years spent praising God, money spent in his name could have been spent on feeding the poor and making good things happen instead of praying for them.

I'm not sure to understand your question (he stoped because they wanted onions, lens... instead) but the time of miracles ended with the delivery of the last message Islam.

Yeah that exactly what God is asking from you: feed the poor, make good things happen, don't harm people, be nice, gentel, sociable, kind and work hard, educate yourself...

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Which God? What if you get to Paradise but it is Yahweh or Zeus? You will be punished for not believing in them. The only reason you believe in Allah is that you were born in a Muslim country, with a Muslim family and taught by Muslim clerics. Had you been born in Texas you'd be a Christian. If Allah were real he would reveal himself to all the Christians and show them the true path.

Yeah parents have a great role but thanks God I'm spared the long road to the light
As I said before, the time of miracles ended and now we're on a test and I'm sorry to say that not believing in God or believing in other god with or without Him is an unforgivable sin.

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

On a lighter note, I think Paradise is highly overrated. For instance, why would a man want 72 virgins? Wouldn't you rather have 72 of the most experienced prostitutes mankind has to offer? There's no diseases in Heaven after all. I think sex with 72 virgins would be more like Hell than Heaven. Also, where do these virgins come from? How come these poor girls made it to paradise as virgins and why would they want some guy to take their virginity from them against their will?

I don't know about this 72 virgins but it's likely another exageration. What I know is that there will be very beautiful angels in Heaven. Nothing like ever seen on earth.

definitions
angels: created just to serve God don't have human instincts and do whatever God tells them
humans: created to pray God but have animal instincts and don't do whatever God tells them

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

You live your life without fear of everlasting Hell. We both know that you can not rightly blasphemy Allah or his prophet Muhammad without living in extreme fear that your soul will be punished. Why would God care if you believe in Him? It does not change the fact of his existence one way or the other. You can't even ask yourself these questions because it is a sin to doubt God is it not?

Extreme fear I'm fearing God that's why I'm trying my best to be helpful in life. I say whatever I want to say as long as it's making sense (for me). There was in the islamic history more books than you could imagine debating the existance of God and other religion related matters made by great minds that you never heard of. None of them give bulletproof answers but they tried to answer with deep reasoning.

If you're seeking evidence then Quran is the only thing offered (from an islamic point of view) as it is miraculous in it's creation.

If you're eliminating the only thing proving everything then nothing can prove religion and there's a test you will have to take even if you don't want to.

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

This is just a clever way of making excuses for contradictions and flaws in the Quran. Similar flaws exist in the Bible because both scriptures are written by flawed men and no God had any part to do with the editing.

Anyway, you can't claim my translations are incorrect if you admit there are multiple-meanings. Nor can you claim the Quran predicted many scientific discoveries when you say many of these verses are allegorical.

The verses explain what you're saying as what you saying is exactly what you shouldn't.

If it's a test then why you surprised to find difficulties?

There's no similar flaws in Quran and Bible. What's true is that Quran is correcting some of errors introduced by humans in the Bible.

Your translations are too far away from the meaning that they're word to word translations (which give false meaning) or exagerations.

I'll give examples as I'm starting to feel I'm repeating myself:
translating french -> english
- Donner sa langue au chat -> I give my tongue to the cat (you guessed but I can argue that the person who wrote this is crazy because he cut his tongue and gave it to a cat)
- c'est de la balle -> It's the ball (oh nice ball, well no actually I was trying to say "It's great")

And it's even worse from Arabic because the structuring is different.

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

If God does exist I think he'd be ashamed at the sheer laziness of his followers. At some point in your lives a parent, priest, rabbi, imam or teacher told you that God exists and you believed it. Until then, you had no belief but accepted the first God that was offered to you. Just once, I'd like to hear about someone that spent most of their life searching for a God and gave all faiths proper examination before making a decision.[/rant]

You accepted it because you need it, Humans always wanted to believe in something. It's instinctive.

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

They were the most convenient way to support my assertion... faith = open for exploitation.

I read a couple of books on how conmen operate (one was an autobiography who fleeced hundreds of people out of millions of dollars - he was unique in that he didnt use the typical 'greed of victim' to exploit them - he used 'faith' aka 'trust') - and man, was *that* a revelation - to see all the parallels in his/their scams and how you hear/see religions operate at their core.




Paraphrased....
'Make assertions, and pressure victim as to prevent them from investigating the validity of their assertion.'

'The Qor'an is true, and to question it means damnation'

They sound remarkably identical to me.

edit:
Here is a clear contridiction...

Are you saying god has limits to his ability/powers? But I hear he is all powerful.

= Contradiction.
If he is all powerful - he *could* appear in a way that doesn't cause unconsciousness.

First I made a mistake and I apologies: it's Moïse who asked to see God not Abraham and God told him he'll not be able to see him but asked him to look to the Mountain nearby as when God will reveal Himself the Mountain will become flat that's why he went unconscious. So the idea was not to let Moïse see God but to prove to him His existance.

[OmegaRED]

Yeah that exactly what God is asking from you: feed the poor, make good things happen, don't harm people, be nice, gentel, sociable, kind and work hard, educate yourself...

Yet even if I did all these things I would be living in unforgivable sin for not believing in God. Whereas, you or another believer, would be granted entry into Paradise despite not doing nearly as much for humanity. Therefore, God does not care about the deeds he cares about being praised.

angels: created just to serve God don't have human instincts and do whatever God tells them
humans: created to pray God but have animal instincts and don't do whatever God tells them

Why would you believe God needs to create creatures such as angels and humans simply to obey him? Does he need to be amused like a child? These actions are the work of a petty, insecure and jealous creature and are not the attributes of a Supreme Being. Man is the only creature who worships other creatures; it could not be more obvious that man created God as we know it.

Extreme fear I'm fearing God that's why I'm trying my best to be helpful in life. I say whatever I want to say as long as it's making sense (for me).

What sort of God would want his creations to live in fear of his punishment? This isn't much different than a dog being afraid of his master. You cannot reasonably say that God created the Universe and a world of wonder and beauty but then he decided to be cruel and wicked to humans (no other animals will go to Hell except a human). No God capable of creating such wonders would act as He does in The Bible and Koran.

There's no similar flaws in Quran and Bible. What's true is that Quran is correcting some of errors introduced by humans in the Bible.

Incorrect, you've already admitted that the Quran has many contradictions and can be interpreted differently, this is no different than the gospels in The Bible which are interpreted differently or contradict each other.

You may claim that Muslims have to be intelligent and know the wicked verses from the true ones but this does not change the fact that these contradictions exist.

You accepted it because you need it, Humans always wanted to believe in something. It's instinctive.

Humans fear what they don't understand. We understand more than Muhammad or Jesus could ever have imagined. We've unlocked the secrets of our own bodies, explored the solar system and studied the earth and nature. It is true that there will always be things we don't know and this will leave room for belief but once that knowledge is gained the belief is useless.

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Yet even if I did all these things I would be living in unforgivable sin for not believing in God. Whereas, you or another believer, would be granted entry into Paradise despite not doing nearly as much for humanity. Therefore, God does not care about the deeds he cares about being praised.

Why would you believe God needs to create creatures such as angels and humans simply to obey him? Does he need to be amused like a child? These actions are the work of a petty, insecure and jealous creature and are not the attributes of a Supreme Being. Man is the only creature who worships other creatures; it could not be more obvious that man created God as we know it.

What sort of God would want his creations to live in fear of his punishment? This isn't much different than a dog being afraid of his master. You cannot reasonably say that God created the Universe and a world of wonder and beauty but then he decided to be cruel and wicked to humans (no other animals will go to Hell except a human). No God capable of creating such wonders would act as He does in The Bible and Koran.

Incorrect, you've already admitted that the Quran has many contradictions and can be interpreted differently, this is no different than the gospels in The Bible which are interpreted differently or contradict each other.

You may claim that Muslims have to be intelligent and know the wicked verses from the true ones but this does not change the fact that these contradictions exist.

Humans fear what they don't understand. We understand more than Muhammad or Jesus could ever have imagined. We've unlocked the secrets of our own bodies, explored the solar system and studied the earth and nature. It is true that there will always be things we don't know and this will leave room for belief but once that knowledge is gained the belief is useless.

point of views

[Maddogg6]

If you're so norrow minded to think people here are missing something then you're watching TV too much.

just as you have isaid in so many words, that as a non-believer that *I* am missing something. so, with your logic... you read too much scripture. Besides - TV is *not* where I receive all my info from. I also *do* things that are enjoyable. Debate is just one.

And - you were stepping into 'insulting' territory - carefull - choose words wisely.

First I made a mistake and I apologies: it's Moïse who asked to see God not Abraham

This is irrelevant - the 'who' makes no difference....

God told him he'll not be able to see him but asked him to look to the Mountain nearby as when God will reveal Himself the Mountain will become flat that's why he went unconscious.

1) so... god insists no one see him - is he butt ugly and ashamed to show himself?
2) clearly - god, in his ever powerful knowledge, would have anticipated that; such 'evidence' would have had this effect.
Why does he not grant my wish and just show himself to me - I will believe at that point - does he choose to ignore me - one who *has* asked?
No - strange enough, he only *shows* proof to believers - or 'those who are not sure'.
3) why would the 'all mighty' insist on not showing him self directly to those who ask?
The obvious answer is - he can't.

You accepted it because you need it, Humans always wanted to believe in something. It's instinctive.

Are you not human? I can say the exact same thing to you.

The double talk/standards you speak are staggering (see below).... but not impossible to deal with btw...

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Then this *can* also be true for *anyone* - no?

Your translations are too far away from the meaning that they're word to word translations (which give false meaning) or exagerations.

God would have anticipated this and made the Qur'an in *all* languages to avoid needing translations. - nor would he write it in a way that *can* be interpreted so widely.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by LordLink

point of views

It's called logic...I don't expect you to be familiar with it.

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

just as you have isaid in so many words, that as a non-believer that *I* am missing something. so, with your logic... you read too much scripture. Besides - TV is *not* where I receive all my info from. I also *do* things that are enjoyable. Debate is just one.

And - you were stepping into 'insulting' territory - carefull - choose words wisely.

I beg your pardon, I'm starting to think to stop participating to this debate. First I just wanted tocorrect some false views about Islam, I don't have any personal satisfaction from this as everybody take responsability of his choices ALONE. The more I try to explain the more it's difficult for me. As you surelly guessed I'm not that good in English, my vocabulary is limited and I'm sometimes failing to find the right words for my argumentations plus it takes from me a lot more effort than you and at the same time the reader have the feeling I'm dumb or stupid because sentences are not correctly written so my arguments seem automatically weaker or sometimes misunderstood (at least that's what I feel).

My apologies again Maddogg6.

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

1) so... god insists no one see him - is he butt ugly and ashamed to show himself?
2) clearly - god, in his ever powerful knowledge, would have anticipated that; such 'evidence' would have had this effect.
Why does he not grant my wish and just show himself to me - I will believe at that point - does he choose to ignore me - one who *has* asked?
No - strange enough, he only *shows* proof to believers - or 'those who are not sure'.
3) why would the 'all mighty' insist on not showing him self directly to those who ask?
The obvious answer is - he can't.

God would have anticipated this and made the Qur'an in *all* languages to avoid needing translations. - nor would he write it in a way that *can* be interpreted so widely.

1) You imagine God as a human but he's not. He's not like anything He created
2) He anticipated: read more carefully. If it was like that then it's not a test!
3) It's a test to Humanity: No one will never see Him.

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

It's called logic...I don't expect you to be familiar with it.

Sorry for the useless comment, I was tired and it was late. I wanted to post then changed my mind. I withdraw it.

[COLOR="Silver"]BTW I'm living from logic. So logic knows me more than you think.[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Yet even if I did all these things I would be living in unforgivable sin for not believing in God. Whereas, you or another believer, would be granted entry into Paradise despite not doing nearly as much for humanity. Therefore, God does not care about the deeds he cares about being praised.

I didn't say it's automatic, only God decides, but for your good deeds to be accepted by God you have to be believe in Him.

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Why would you believe God needs to create creatures such as angels and humans simply to obey him? Does he need to be amused like a child? These actions are the work of a petty, insecure and jealous creature and are not the attributes of a Supreme Being. Man is the only creature who worships other creatures; it could not be more obvious that man created God as we know it.

What sort of God would want his creations to live in fear of his punishment? This isn't much different than a dog being afraid of his master. You cannot reasonably say that God created the Universe and a world of wonder and beauty but then he decided to be cruel and wicked to humans (no other animals will go to Hell except a human). No God capable of creating such wonders would act as He does in The Bible and Koran.

God created Humans and gave them a MIND. Humans are the only creatures which are able to think. Don't over estimate your own intelligence and never under estimate your own stupidity.

Just imagine the possibility that there's a God that created all this universe including the extraordinary human intelligence (that is unique) that make him try to understand the world around him (not like other creatures living with instinctive behaviors or with very limited intelligence) and ruling at the same time continiously everything. How big his intelligence can be?

Do you think He'll not know how fear in humans is working. Let's complete this supposition with an example:
If you wake up one day and find that all policemen are dead (policiousa virus for example) and the governement asked people to act good until they fix the issue. Will they all do as the governement asked? Impossible. The fact is there will be a certain percentage of people that will spread chaos. There's always some people that need to fear something to do the rightous.

Now you guessed the fear message in Quran is for that kind of people.

There's no focuse on fear in Quran, it's rather the opposite as it's talking two times more about forgiveness of God than about His punishments.

Apart from, God didn't decided to be cruel, He tested the first Human Adam and he failed, God forgave him and said I will test your sons until the end of time. You have a mind, you have to choose. He's not cruel because you have the choice. Other creatures don't have minds, they're already praying god their own way: by working. Almost no creature on earth is doing nothing, all creatures are doing complementary work to survive.

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Incorrect, you've already admitted that the Quran has many contradictions and can be interpreted differently, this is no different than the gospels in The Bible which are interpreted differently or contradict each other.

You may claim that Muslims have to be intelligent and know the wicked verses from the true ones but this does not change the fact that these contradictions exist.

Humans fear what they don't understand. We understand more than Muhammad or Jesus could ever have imagined. We've unlocked the secrets of our own bodies, explored the solar system and studied the earth and nature. It is true that there will always be things we don't know and this will leave room for belief but once that knowledge is gained the belief is useless.

I never said there are contradictions in Quran, NEVER. I said there's some verses with ambiguous meanings, others with clear meanings and some unusable out of their context.

"wicked verses??? true ones???" you didn't understand what I wrote or I didn't wrote it the right way.

Yeah humanity made a lot of progress in science but the more you know, the more you see there's still a lot more to discover and that will never end.

[COLOR="Silver"]PS: I suggest you to see a nice movie of a great mind in the history to have a little idea about the Islamic civilisation. The Keeper: The Legend of Omar Khayyam[/COLOR]

[OmegaRED]

[COLOR=Silver]BTW I'm living from logic. So logic knows me more than you think.[/COLOR]

Ok, let's put that to the test...

I didn't say it's automatic, only God decides, but for your good deeds to be accepted by God you have to be believe in Him.

WHY?! Do you not see how illogical this is? Why would God care whether people believe in Him or not is he that insecure about his own existence? He gave me a brain and I'm using it to see there is no proof of his existence, if God wants me to believe he should have made me stupid and gullible.

God created Humans and gave them a MIND. Humans are the only creatures which are able to think. Don't over estimate your own intelligence and never under estimate your own stupidity.

I'm willing to chalk this statement up to your own lacking english skills (as you said in your post to Maddog). Humans are not the only creatures which can think...that's preposterous. Humans are the only known lifeforms to have sentience (we know we exist and will die).

Do you think He'll not know how fear in humans is working. Let's complete this supposition with an example:
If you wake up one day and find that all policemen are dead (policiousa virus for example) and the governement asked people to act good until they fix the issue. Will they all do as the governement asked? Impossible. The fact is there will be a certain percentage of people that will spread chaos. There's always some people that need to fear something to do the rightous.

Now you guessed the fear message in Quran is for that kind of people.

Wrong. First of all, prior to the existence of The Bible and The Koran people were not going around raping and murdering each other with reckless abandon. There was no chaos despite people not knowing about the existence of Allah or God.

There's no focuse on fear in Quran, it's rather the opposite as it's talking two times more about forgiveness of God than about His punishments.

Perhaps, though I must wonder what Allah's priorities are if he creates Hell with all it's fire and burning and endless suffering when he could simply forgive all humans and let them into paradise. No, I'm thinking Allah cares more about punishment (especially for non believers and apostates). Ask yourself this...does the punishment of eternal damnation fit the crime?

Apart from, God didn't decided to be cruel, He tested the first Human Adam and he failed, God forgave him and said I will test your sons until the end of time. You have a mind, you have to choose

Was there a writers strike at the time because that sounds exactly like the story from The Bible It's a weak excuse designed by believers to explain why God does not intervene in our lives and why he lets us suffer (because of Adam).

Almost no creature on earth is doing nothing, all creatures are doing complementary work to survive.

The irony of the Quran is that a dog or lowly creature has more freedom than any man. A dog does not have to live in fear knowing Allah is watching him and judging him (even if the dog murders many humans it won't even go to Hell). The best part of being a dog is that you have the choice of not existing when you die. Whereas the humans have no free will but to pick between Hell or Heaven.

[Sandok]

Simple reason God doesn't exist... If he is all powerful and all good, explain evil (unless there are two gods... Hmmmm).

[Maddogg6]

The more I try to explain the more it's difficult for me. As you surelly guessed I'm not that good in English, my vocabulary is limited and I'm sometimes failing to find the right words for my argumentations plus it takes from me a lot more effort than you and at the same time the reader have the feeling I'm dumb or stupid because sentences are not correctly written so my arguments seem automatically weaker or sometimes misunderstood (at least that's what I feel).

Hmmm - this is not my fault - perhaps you bit off more than you could chew by *choosing* to debate religion in an *english* forum. Sounds like an excuse to me tho.

My apologies again Maddogg6.

I don't expect appologies - I expect you to say what you mean, and mean what you say... thats, imho, is not asking too much.

First I just wanted tocorrect some false views about Islam, I don't have any personal satisfaction from this as everybody take responsability of his choices ALONE.

1) true, everyone is responsible for their actions - extremists included.
2) you did not succeed in correcting anything I have said (well, maybe the spelling of 'Qur'an) - besides I don't recall too much said in this thread that was specific to islam. Maybe generalization about religions as a whole. But, I would still make such generalizations as you have only made comments that actually coincide with any generalization I have said.

There's always some people that need to fear something to do the rightous.

true - *some people* - not all... I dont need to fear anything to decide between 'right and wrong'. Besides this is moot - if you are starving (because you fear leaving your house) *anyone* would justify stealing a loaf of bread from an absent neighbor under that condition. The human instinct is also to survive.

I never said there are contradictions in Quran, NEVER. I said there's some verses with ambiguous meanings, others with clear meanings and some unusable out of their context.

Ok - so why did not god forsee this?

Again - why did not god write the Qur'an in *all* languages to avoid *man* (who he knows some are able to trick those that beleive) from needing interpretations?

Its a pretty simple and *logical* question I have not seen addressed directly. and in *you* words and not a quoted passage of scripture.

Humans are the only creatures which are able to think.

Actually this is false - more and more - science demonstrate animals capable of 'thought' - this is witnessed by primates and other animals to use crude tools.
Animal Tool Use
Note thats all from 1980 - If I look harder - I would find more. Of course you probably wont equate a 'uuse of tools' as 'thought' but that would be another debate. But for many - it *is* proof that man is *not* the only species on this planet capable of 'thought'.

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

WHY?! Do you not see how illogical this is? Why would God care whether people believe in Him or not is he that insecure about his own existence? He gave me a brain and I'm using it to see there is no proof of his existence, if God wants me to believe he should have made me stupid and gullible.

Well it's exactly what I'm doing, He gave me a brain and I'm using it to see there is proof of his existence everywhere.

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

I'm willing to chalk this statement up to your own lacking english skills (as you said in your post to Maddog). Humans are not the only creatures which can think...that's preposterous. Humans are the only known lifeforms to have sentience (we know we exist and will die).

Are you serious? the only advanced intelligence (capable of thinking, inventing, reading, writing, communicating with advanced language...) on earth is humans. Humans are not superiour to other creatures only by knowing they exist. All other creatures are inferior, there's nothing like the human brain on earth. That's what differenciates humans from animals.

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Wrong. First of all, prior to the existence of The Bible and The Koran people were not going around raping and murdering each other with reckless abandon. There was no chaos despite people not knowing about the existence of Allah or God.

That's not true, I wonder what african tribes would answer you, when white people were making slaves shopping back in the time. The various bandits waiting on commercial roads too...

The question was not about the Bible or Quran or God, the question was about fear and people that need it.

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Perhaps, though I must wonder what Allah's priorities are if he creates Hell with all it's fire and burning and endless suffering when he could simply forgive all humans and let them into paradise. No, I'm thinking Allah cares more about punishment (especially for non believers and apostates). Ask yourself this...does the punishment of eternal damnation fit the crime?

I'm not the oracle, it is God who decides, so if you think you'll do good and He'll forgive you (of course in the perspective it's existing) then it's ok.

I was previously giving my opinions not deciding who goes to paradise and who's not and as I said before God spares who He wants. It's always relative in Islam.

And God knows better.

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Hmmm - this is not my fault - perhaps you bit off more than you could chew by *choosing* to debate religion in an *english* forum. Sounds like an excuse to me tho.

I don't expect appologies - I expect you to say what you mean, and mean what you say... thats, imho, is not asking too much.

Yeah thanks for insisting on *choosing* and *english* as I'll take your advice and make this post the last.

English is my 3rd language and I'm not using it that much and the subject is too complex.

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

1) true, everyone is responsible for their actions - extremists included.
2) you did not succeed in correcting anything I have said (well, maybe the spelling of 'Qur'an) - besides I don't recall too much said in this thread that was specific to islam. Maybe generalization about religions as a whole. But, I would still make such generalizations as you have only made comments that actually coincide with any generalization I have said.

1) true though I don't know what extremists do in your answer.
2) I was speaking about the book with false alegations about Islam in the begining of the thread.

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Again - why did not god write the Qur'an in *all* languages to avoid *man* (who he knows some are able to trick those that beleive) from needing interpretations?

Its a pretty simple and *logical* question I have not seen addressed directly. and in *you* words and not a quoted passage of scripture.

With all respect to English, Arabic is superior to latin languages (french, english, spanish...). Yeah I know it's still subjective but I'll tell you why? I know them all so I can say that, have more letters, can make more readable combinations (extensivity), a lot older (is in it's final version for now more than 2500 years), got one of best (if not the best) poetry you can find and was chosen to be the language of Paradise
Don't worry it will be preinstalled directly in your ROM

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Actually this is false - more and more - science demonstrate animals capable of 'thought' - this is witnessed by primates and other animals to use crude tools.
Animal Tool Use
Note thats all from 1980 - If I look harder - I would find more. Of course you probably wont equate a 'uuse of tools' as 'thought' but that would be another debate. But for many - it *is* proof that man is *not* the only species on this planet capable of 'thought'.

I'm not talking about basic 'thought'. Send me a message when you find an animal capable of writing his 'thoughts'.

[OmegaRED]

Well it's exactly what I'm doing, He gave me a brain and I'm using it to see there is proof of his existence everywhere.

Aside from the Quran there is absolutely no proof of Allah. Forgive me if you found a rock that was signed by Him because the last time I checked there was a natural explanation for everything around us. Just because you don't know how something happens (then credit God for it) doesn't mean there is someone smarter who knows exactly how it was created. For the unknown and mysteries that we encounter, there is no evidence to suggest God is behind it...might as well say trolls or pixies did it there's as much proof for that as God.

Are you serious? the only advanced intelligence (capable of thinking, inventing, reading, writing, communicating with advanced language...) on earth is humans. Humans are not superiour to other creatures only by knowing they exist. All other creatures are inferior, there's nothing like the human brain on earth. That's what differenciates humans from animals.

You said "thinking" not writing, inventing or language. Didn't a study just come out showing apes has better short term memories than any human? I don't think we are superior in all ways. We evolved the traits which helped us survive and animals evolved things more suited for them (such as night vision, radar, sonar, improved eyesight & smell)

That's not true, I wonder what african tribes would answer you, when white people were making slaves shopping back in the time. The various bandits waiting on commercial roads too...

Was it not Muslims who were the first to start the Slave trade? I believe so. They were called "bandits" because it clearly wasn't the normal behaviour. Few societies tolerated murder and rape or they'd quickly fall apart. All I'm saying is there was not mass chaos as you described at any time before the Koran and The Bible came and told people Gods laws.

The question was not about the Bible or Quran or God, the question was about fear and people that need it.

People need to fear real punishment not fantasy. Perhaps , in times disaster, where there is no law in order it wouldn't hurt for people to believe God is watching their actions but this is not worth the trade off for the rest of the time when there is calm and people still have to live in fear (not to mention innocent men, women and children forced into fearing God despite not participating in such lawlessness.

[Maddogg6]

I'm not talking about basic 'thought'.

there ya go changing your story - you made no mention of 'writing'....

Humans are the only creatures which are able to think.

You definitly changed your story - and want to blame the english language??? erm...yeah.

I don't expect appologies - I expect you to say what you mean, and mean what you say... thats, imho, is not asking too much.

perhaps send me a message when you can do this - its not an unreasonable request - is it?

true though I don't know what extremists do in your answer.

You have *no* idea what I was talking about...hmm - what do 'extremists' do?
the answer - they hate those who do not believe as they do... some even blow them up (re: sunni vs Shei) - when clearly - the Qur'an preaches peace - yet 2 sides of same faith feel violence is allowed by allah.

With all respect to English, Arabic is superior to latin languages (french, english, spanish...). Yeah I know it's still subjective but I'll tell you why? I know them all so I can say that, have more letters, can make more readable combinations (extensivity), a lot older (is in it's final version for now more than 2500 years), got one of best (if not the best) poetry you can find and was chosen to be the language of Paradise
Don't worry it will be preinstalled directly in your ROM

1) - you have already admitted your english is not the best - but you conclude its an inferior language???
2) - why did you bother to learn an inferior language?
3) - if the Qur'an can be interpreted to english, it can be written in english - why didnt god release an english version? And avoid all the translation problems.