The debate religion thread!

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by Sandok

I think you guys know its impossible to change somebodies opinion... Right? I mean, I do now (after a billion debates).

In general, I agree with that assertion because most topics just aren't personal enough to sway our opinion. However, that's not true in the case of religious belief, it won't happen immediately of course but it's an accumulative effect upon the persons belief system. Those unanswered questions will keep piling up and eventually the believer has to decide whether to search for the truth or ignore them and just have faith. Those of us here who are agnostic or atheists can attest to this because we used to believe.

People believe in stupid things, but that doesn't mean you can force them to see your beliefs... Honestly, I've noticed people who understand science deny God and people who "think" they know science well... Love God

It's amazing how people can compartmentalize their beliefs isn't it?

Originally Posted by LordLink

IMO it's not good to "debate" religions as it's a personal choice ansd I don't remember who was saying "it's not good to speak about religion (if not asked) as you never know who you'll be offending" but I agree with that.

Why should religion have any special treatment? People argue their political beliefs all the time I don't see how religion is any different. We can't worry about offending everyone else's religious beliefs especially when so many of them encroach on our own rights and freedoms.

[Maddogg6]

I think you guys know its impossible to change somebodies opinion...

well - if you say it enough times...

the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
the war in Iraq is justified
____________________________

Doesn't this sound a lot like an attack on free speech, or at least suggests to suppress it?

"it's not good to speak about religion (if not asked) as you never know who you'll be offending"

I mean - you are free to express that you have been offended just by someone being critical - but thats how free speech works, some one may something you don't like - you are also free to disagree - but... to take one away, both *will* disappear, be it about religion or politics.

that usually when people are speaking about religions other than theirs they don't really know the religion they are talking about and the fact is that they got biased judgements

do you see a flaw in that statement? - you used a generalization ('usually')- then followed up with the word 'fact' - obviously - thats not always true - right? it is a contradiction - no?

bottom line is - we *are* allowed to discuss it - we *are* free to do so ... for now - and I hope that line of thinking doesn't lead to an end of such freedom any time soon. Do you? as you are either free - or not - there's really no compromise. Otherwise its 'freedom with exception' and who decides those exceptions - me or you?

edit: and if something is said in error - you are free to point it out and make/suggest corrections....please do /edit

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Why should religion have any special treatment? People argue their political beliefs all the time I don't see how religion is any different. We can't worry about offending everyone else's religious beliefs especially when so many of them encroach on our own rights and freedoms.

If you debate in the same religion then it's ok but debating Christianism vs Islam vs Judaism vs [put the name of other religions] is not useful because you can't change anything
I agree that some people are using religion to achieve some political interests (did I say Ben Laden?) that's why there's ambiguity between the two but for me the difference is that politics is something for the actual life but religion is something for the after life and thus it's useless to participate interreligious debates

[cozumel]

Christian, Jewish, Islamic and any other faith schools should be outlawed as all they do is reduce understanding of each others beliefs. Children need a secular education and should choose if they want to follow a religion. It should never be forced upon on them and just increases mistrust.

Maddogg: If you want to debate the Iraq war then start another thread as you have not linked your comment to anything religious. For the record, it is definitely not justified and was illegal anyhow.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by LordLink

If you debate in the same religion then it's ok but debating Christianism vs Islam vs Judaism vs [put the name of other religions] is not useful because you can't change anything
I agree that some people are using religion to achieve some political interests (did I say Ben Laden?) that's why there's ambiguity between the two but for me the difference is that politics is something for the actual life but religion is something for the after life and thus it's useless to participate interreligious debates

Who's this Ben Laden guy you speak of? Is there a reward for him?

Actually, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all related to Abraham and thus it is a perfect fit for discussion. I agree that it's useless to debate the merits of one religion over another but that's not the same as discussing them.

Religion can and must be discussed, it was not always safe to do so and in some places still isn't. We have the freedom and should use it to educate people both on the value of and the cost of religious belief to mankind. There may not be an afterlife so now's the best time for it.

[Maddogg6]

Maddogg: If you want to debate the Iraq war then start another thread as you have not linked your comment to anything religious.

Actually yes - it did have religious link.... it was an example that if you say something enough...people will believe it...

'By god....'
'Jesus christ......'
'God this, god that'
its all over our media. Just like how the war in Iraq was justified.
Do you see the link now?

I agree that some people are using religion to achieve some political interests (did I say Ben Laden?)

than say it for Huckabee too as well.
Mike Huckabee's Ongoing Ministry - Swampland - TIME

Huckabee's campaign has attempted to portray these religious services as non-political events. Indeed, the candidate said nothing explicitly political during his sermon, though the church's pastor, Mike Hamlet, did encourage parishioners afterwards to vote in the Saturday primary.

edit: ' Jesus Camp' is a place that kids are 'mobilized to politcally take back america' /edit

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by cozumel

Christian, Jewish, Islamic and any other faith schools should be outlawed as all they do is reduce understanding of each others beliefs. Children need a secular education and should choose if they want to follow a religion. It should never be forced upon on them and just increases mistrust.

Then when you're going to choose one you'll be an outlaw ?!! and how can you put all these religions in the reduce-understanding-of-each-others-beliefs category? it's looks like you have a GREAT knowledge in all these religions (that's exactly what I call bias)

Originally Posted by OmegaRED

Who's this Ben Laden guy you speak of? Is there a reward for him?

Actually, Christianity, Islam and Judaism are all related to Abraham and thus it is a perfect fit for discussion. I agree that it's useless to debate the merits of one religion over another but that's not the same as discussing them.

Religion can and must be discussed, it was not always safe to do so and in some places still isn't. We have the freedom and should use it to educate people both on the value of and the cost of religious belief to mankind. There may not be an afterlife so now's the best time for it.

There's a difference between discussion and debate (at least in my understanding of english). Yes, discussing is the begining of understanding but there should be always rules/guidelines in these kind of discussions not to fall into flaming
And yes Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all versions of the same religion (that's why they're called the 3 heavenly religions)
One funny perspective to make it suitable for a discussion in driverheaven is that :
Judaism = win 98
Christianity = win xp
Islam = vista

I think the choice here is between win xp & vista because win 98 is no longer an option

[Maddogg6]

Yes, discussing is the begining of understanding but there should be always rules/guidelines in these kind of discussions not to fall into flaming

Good point, but then you say....

One funny perspective to make it suitable for a discussion in driverheaven is that :
Judaism = win 98
Christianity = win xp
Islam = vista

I think the choice here is between win xp & vista because win 98 is no longer an option

that comes across like you feel one is 'better' or more correct/up to date. How does that avoid a flame war?? Perhaps I mis-interpreted this rather ambiguous 'analogy'. If so please elaborate more directly.

[OmegaRED]

that comes across like you feel one is 'better' or more correct/up to date. How does that avoid a flame war?? Perhaps I mis-interpreted this rather ambiguous 'analogy'. If so please elaborate more directly.

He was going by the order they were created. You gotta give him effort points for throwing in a Windows reference in a religion discussion.

[Callandor]

One thing I've noticed about religion is that when you're an atheist, people are continuosly always trying to "brain wash" you into their religion, just yesterday some guy was trying to get me to become a muslim, and the other day one of my good friends that I've known for a while now was trying to get me into his religion, I mean I'm not trying to say they're religions are messed up and that's not right, it's just you need to see or rather "sense" when it's time to quit. I have my reasons for being an "unbeliever".

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

that comes across like you feel one is 'better' or more correct/up to date. How does that avoid a flame war?? Perhaps I mis-interpreted this rather ambiguous 'analogy'. If so please elaborate more directly.

Sorry for this but it was not an analogy, it was just a joke besides if my informations are correct you can't really enter Judaism even if you choose to you'll always be considered not-fully-jewish or second-class-jewish. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, I respect all of them but you cannot deny that the latest is always the most up to date (if you take into consideration that they're from the same God)

It doesn't really matter if it's up to date what matters IMO is to take advice of what's in your religion and make your own vision

[Sandok]

But in a way, religion dumbs down the human intellect, no matter what vision... I personally find it insulting to my intelligence to believe in God.

Reasons for this? Well simply because you give EVERY question an easy answer. It's as if you take a test or exam where you can't figure out the answers so you put God in every possible nook and cranny. We are an amazing species with power beyond what the first Homo Sapien Sapiens would have imagined, why ruin it by contricting ourselves with the notion of God (and thus adding stupid blockages in the form of freedom, tabooness, etc.)

Boggles the mind someitmes.

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by Callandor

One thing I've noticed about religion is that when you're an atheist, people are continuosly always trying to "brain wash" you into their religion, just yesterday some guy was trying to get me to become a muslim, and the other day one of my good friends that I've known for a while now was trying to get me into his religion, I mean I'm not trying to say they're religions are messed up and that's not right, it's just you need to see or rather "sense" when it's time to quit. I have my reasons for being an "unbeliever".

Try what many atheists do with such people and throw a few tough questions at them, make them squirm, maybe even debate them if they're up for it. At the very least tell them why you're an Atheist.

I've been reading the lengthly section of "The Portable Atheist" from this book Amazon.com: Why I Am Not a Muslim: Books: Ibn Warraq it's a stunning dissection of the Koran from a Muslim and some good information to use when Muslims hassle you.

[Maddogg6]

One thing I've noticed about religion is that when you're an atheist, people are continuosly always trying to "brain wash" you into their religion

I agree - lets see - theres the born again christians (ouch, I wonder how mom survives that one ) - at the LA area beaches I used to have bug me constantly - most were reformed convicts/druggies.
Then there's the Jehovah witnesses that seem to always come around at the worst possible time (cooking dinner, coitus-interuptis, nephew I was baby sitting napping etc..) I had one run up behind me as I was taking garbage out - he was this close to getting decked as he startled me in doing so (I thought I was about to be mugged for a split second) - just to hand me a watchtower mag.

even if you choose to you'll always be considered not-fully-jewish or second-class-jewish.

got ya... some catholics are this way as well toward converts - so I have no doubts that is true at some level - BUT - I bet the synagogue would still accept a converts tithing.... I don't think that is a 'rule' - I doubt this is true... 'I call on all 'naturalized' jews to reject the converts'.

And... It really besides the point - as I *can* convert to judaism and practice the religion, believe as they believe reguardless of how other jews treat me .... for instance - how many neighbors fight over silly things and are both from same faith.... Sunni vs Shei muslims... so inner-faith hostility is true in any faith and thus moot. Inner faith prejudices occur in them all I am certain.

Well simply because you give EVERY question an easy answer

While I agree with what you are saying - what *really* gets me are the answers to *hard* questions - that too often end up at 'gods will' - which to me is an arrogant way out to avoid saying 'I don't know'.
To me, its like when parents saying 'because I said so' to a child. Its a non-answer to the question of 'why' just to mute a usually unreasonable child. As a child from a parent - its acceptable - but toward an adult asking a legitimate question - I don't understand how anyone would accept it as an answer from those who claim to have access to 'the all knowing'.

edit:
'I spoke with god....'
Well then - ask him for the answer then while your at it.
But it would seem god is allowed to make assertions with out reason. It would seem god is allowed secretive motives in his decisions that go un-questioned.
/edit

[LordLink]

Originally Posted by Sandok

But in a way, religion dumbs down the human intellect, no matter what vision... I personally find it insulting to my intelligence to believe in God.

There's a difference bet