[x.clay]

Interesting thread...here are a few thoughts to toss out there...

I can understand anyone who takes a look at the world and wonders how could there be a god. There is constand pain, suffering, injustice, and oppression. If there is a god, and he is a loving god like everyone clains, why doesn't he just fix this mess!

The problem is that to fix the world you have to fix people and people are pretty messed up. I used to consider myself a pretty decent person. I obeyed my parents. Participated in charities and helped those less fortunate. When I died I expected to my good stuff to outweigh any bad stuff I did and into heaven I would go....

The problem is I'm really not that great of a person. I'm selfish, pridefull, a liar....and this list could go on and on. The truth is even when I think I am doing pretty well I am so far from the standard God sets that I don't even come close. If we had to depend on being good people to get into heaven none of us would have a chance. I have made so many choices that totally go against what God would want for me and as a result I deserve to be seperated from God...I deserve hell.

God is a just God and the penaties for sin can't just be brushed under the rug like they never happened. But God is also a relational God that loves each of us more than we could begin to understand. Someone had to pay the price for us, and hell is to large a price for any of us to have to pay, so he paid the price for us. The God of eternity stepped down to walk among us, to teach us and show us what God was like, and to ultimately carry our punishment. All God asks is that you will acknowledge who Jesus is and accept his payment for a debt you could never pay on your own.

There are a lot of arguments in this thread over things like creation vs. evolution, free will, science vs. faith, but I think they are all side issues that people get really sidetracted on. The underlining theme throughout the entire Bible is not a laundry list of do's and dont's. God gives the creation account about 2 pages that I would consider pretty vague so I wouldn't consider this an issue that God thinks is too important beyond the basics that He created everything. The common theme throughout the entire Bible is God's love and interaction with his people. Most of the Bible is written about people and their lives. Who they were, their struggles and failings as well as their accomplishments. The big figures in the bible were far from perfect people and the bible doesn't try to gloss over this. Abraham didn't believe God's promise and decided to take matters into his own hands. Moses murdered someone. David slept with another man's wife and then killed the guy so he wouldn't find out. Peter denied Jesus multiple times. And Paul (who wrote most of the new testimate) was a leader in the persection and even killing of many early Christians. God isn't looking for perfect people. He know we are all messed up. He is just looking for people who are willing to be honest and admit their imperfection. We can't fix ourselves. Even the most moral person still has struggles, even if they won't let you see them. Only God can fix us, and rather than turn each of us into mindless drones that have no choice but to obey, he gives us the choice.

[Judas]

God created Adam, and then god gave adam a notepad and pen and then said "adam, take a note" thus creating the word of god aka the bible.

Someone find this counter productive?

[OmegaRED]

Originally Posted by x.clay

God isn't looking for perfect people. He know we are all messed up. He is just looking for people who are willing to be honest and admit their imperfection. We can't fix ourselves. Even the most moral person still has struggles, even if they won't let you see them. Only God can fix us, and rather than turn each of us into mindless drones that have no choice but to obey, he gives us the choice.

I've made the choice to decide God isn't real and I'll fix my problems myself. If I supposedly have free will then this should be fine and dandy, if not then I guess I'll be going to Hell

[x.clay]

If there is no God then there is no reason to try to be a better person, live a good life, etc. (unless it just makes you feel better). Life is short so party hard and enjoy it as much as you can. Anyone that professes a faith should be considered a fool for wasting there short existance trying to live for something that isn't real.

But if there is a God and hell is a real place, it certainly shouldn't be destination you feel comfortable with. I have heard the arguement "I would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven..." Hell isn't a place where you can kick back with satan and roast some marshmellows over the open flames. I think most people have a pretty bland view of heaven and hell. The bible's view of hell is a place of constant tormant. What comes to my mind is the feeling of drowning....the desperation for a gasp of air, the trapt feeling, the feeling of the world closing in around you but there is nothing you can do about it. Hell isn't a big party for those that didn't make the cut for heaven. People will be too focused on their own situation to be concerned about everyone else. And heaven isn't a place with little naked babies flying around with harps and fluffy clouds. The few people in the bible who were given a glimpse of heaven struggle to find a wordly comparison. Heaven is a place where things like pain, disapointment, injustice, disease, and death are finally done away with. We'll be surrounded by the most amazing scenery imaginable. Take the most breathtaking landscape or sunset you have even seen and conbine with the the best relationships you have had and remove any pain or disapointment. And then stretch that feeling on forever and you might be starting to get a tiny glimpse of heaven.