Dancing in the streets in BAGDAD!

BWX

Well I just watched (am watching) History unfold in front of me on TV. I just saw US troops roll into the center square in Bagdad and then after a while the crowd gathered around the troops, cheering them. Then they made over to the big ugly statue of Saddam and tried to bring it down. With a little help from their new friends, the American troops (and a big tank), they put an American flag on the face of his statue and then they PULLED THE STATUE DOWN with ropes and chains and threw shoes at it and danced on his "dead" statue body!!

What a great thing to see- the people if Iraq are on their way to freedom. And they seem to know exactly what to do with their new found freeedom.
God bless Iraq and God bless the USA.

Pretty amazing, watching history live on TV.

*edit- And oh, I forgot to mention that Mr. Bagdad Bob, or the "disinformation minister" has been saying, up until yesterday, that it was all a lie and that we were putting on a hollywood show. He was saying we weren't even taking over Iraq at all-
Well he wasn't there saying that today, because we were there.

Rayder

Iraq has been De-Saddamised.

Bush is ALWAYS better than Saddamy.

BWX

Yep, anyday of the week. But unfortunately only his statue is dead for sure.

Zardon

it was good to see the iraq people hugging the soldiers ......... makes you see just how oppressed the people have been. Hopefully its the start of a new era.

BWX

I agree, I never thought it would make that much of a difference, you know how people just get stuck in their ways. But not these guys! No way, they couldn't wait to jump all over Saddam's statue's face and head. That was almost as good as seeing that poor POW Jessica come home.

War is bad, but it does have its high points. I won't forget that ever- like the Berlin wall, just will always stick with you. In a good way.

raid517

Well I think this is an initial phase of relief, as I have said before what we will have to see if the relief of the deposition of Saddam Hussein transports into long term support for American troops. I saw some interviews with a few iraqi locals and they were basically saying that they were glad that Saddam was gone, but that they wanted America and the UK to leave as soon as possible so that they can run their own affairs. The question now is what kind of govenment will they ellect? Or more interestingly, what kind of govenment will they be 'allowed' to ellect?
In truth none of this really intersts me. Since the first shot was fired all this was a foregone conclusion. The Iraqis hardly posed any real kind of opposition. What concerns me now is the peace and the repocussions of what has happend - and if Bush will deliver on the bargain he made with Blair to kick start the peace process in Isreal and the Middle East. If this happens (though I remain sceptical) then we can all look back on this as an unmittigated success.

Secretly though, I am very encouraged by the things I have seen so far. I am at least certainly relieved for the Iraqi people. Let's hope the rest of the Arab world sees this as a symbol of hope - and not an act of imperialism. As I said, only time will tell which it is likely to be.

Q

raid517

Having said that, don't you guys think the way these people cellebrate is a tad nuts? I can't tell if they are happy or mad - and they show their emotions by stripping the country bare of anything that isn't nailed down. I'm not sure if that is a mass outbreak of happiness, or a mass outbreak of greed. But ho hum, I guess its not for us to judge the midset of these people. I sure hope some kind of law and order is restored soon, otherwise all this anarchy could turn into something a lot more sinister, just like what happend in Bosnia. But I'm sure the troops will probably stop it before it gets that far.

Q

bluelight

Well Cheney was fast to explain that the war planning for this war...had been one of the best ever in history....I say...either they knew that Iraq hadnt enough capacity or there are 200 000 dead soldiers dead out in the desert.


Bluelight

raid517

Erm.. what do you mean Blue? There are probably 200,000 or more dead Iraqi troops in the desert right now. Its not nice, but it is a consequence of them wearing a uniform. (Or not as the case may be on some occasions). I think its too late be be anti-war now. The war is done and dusted and pretty much over. But what has always concered me is the consequences of what happens after the war - and it is this that most of the rest of the world will be watching very closely indeed.

Q

BWX

Damn, You couldn't even get all that negativity in one post?

1)- what kind of govenment will they be 'allowed' to ellect?
------how about whatever kind of government they want- how about a FREE and OPEN government- how about the US and the caolition will decide, since we are the ones that put our soldiers lives on the line.

2)-In truth none of this really intersts me.
-------well good to at least know you don't have a single positive bone in your body. THIS IS INTERNATIONAL HISTORY IN THE MAKING! If you have no interest in this, why are you posting here? You are just trying to down play any and all success that the coalition has earned. This is HUGE, like the Berlin wall, the fall of Hitler. Not interested? are you the tin-man that needs some oil squirted on your heart? SHEEESH

3)-Well I think this is an initial phase of relief, as I have said before what we will have to see if the relief of the deposition of Saddam Hussein transports into long term support for American troops. I saw some interviews with a few iraqi locals and they were basically saying that they were glad that Saddam was gone, but that they wanted America and the UK to leave as soon as possible so that they can run their own affairs.
---------man, you make it sound like we are the enemy, that is not what I just saw on TV

4)-Having said that, don't you guys think the way these people cellebrate is a tad nuts? I can't tell if they are happy or mad - and they show their emotions by stripping the country bare of anything that isn't nailed down.
---------what the hell? Now you are making fun of these poor people because of the way they celebrate their freedom!?!? I take offense to these statements. These poor people are coming out of a horrible period in their history and now that they show the SLIGHTEST gratitude towards the US you are all ready to put them on a pedistal and laugh at them? That is just wrong, I feel great for them, and I think it shows a lot of BALLS to go up and take down that statue after what those people had to deal with. I am ashamed of you raid. Not very nice at all!

5)-I'm not sure if that is a mass outbreak of happiness, or a mass outbreak of greed
---------- I am amazed- all the riches that Saddam STOLE from these people and now you call them thieves for taking souvenirs

6)-But ho hum,............ Wow dude, I would think listening to you that someone died. It sounds like you are sad that the troops made it to Bagdad. Could this be true or am I reading to much into your more than somber disposition.

Don't worry, I know how you must hate any victory by the US, but it is for the good of the Iraqi people don't you agree?

raid517

Aww shut up will you and go and sit in a frikin corner or something! Give me a break!!! I said I thought it was a good thing. But if you don't believe this is about what happens after the war then you have no clue about what this war was supposed to be about.

I feel great for them too, but all I said is that it isn't the first time politicians had sold them out. Will it happen again? Well knowing politicians, you would have to think its definately possible.

Anyway I don't think they can just ellect any govenment they want. What would happen if they tried to ellect an Islamic fundamentalist govenment, or some other govenment that wasn't favourable to the US? Do you think they would be allowed to do it? Is that really democracy in that case?

I don't think it is wrong at all to say that this whole thing was a foregone conclusion, I think anyone with half a brain (though in your case that's probably being over generous) could have worked that out a long time ago.

I have said I hoped this would be a success, that the Iraqi people should be left to make their own choices - and that my ultimate measure of sucess (though it is not only mine) will be if Bush holds up his end of the bargain and pushes for a genuine peace agreement between Israel and the Palistinians.

And if you think its pretty to watch people stealing and looting everything in sight and fighting over aid trucks then I would have to say I think you are possibly nuts. If you think that restoring law and order is a bad thing then what the hell can I say about that??? Fair enough... that's your lookout.

But what I think you are saying is that all you care about is this victory and that you don't care what happens after the war. Well if you are you are not alone, this is a typical American attitue to conflicts in other countries. We shall see. There is a lot in the ballance and whether you think its anti-American to say it or not (since there seems to be no end in your book to what can be called 'anti-American') it is true that this war WILL be judged on what happens afterwards.

I don't give a flying 'you know what' whether you think its wrong to say it or not, that's just the way it is.

Q

BWX

Well I just got done watching more on TV and I gotta say, this is a pretty amazing day for those people over there, and the Iraqi people living in the US too. They are all going nuts, clogging up traffic and carrying huge American flags around saying "thank you USA" "USA is great" "Bush is good man, Bush is a good guy, Bush protects out people, Good job Bush" when asked what they think.
I watched more footahe from Bagdad and they are just as happy over there. The fighting isn't over yet, but it is going to be soon.

THe troops were letting the Iraqis "let off some stream" before they start trying to take some sort of control of them- but the Iraqis did it themselves, they started stoning the luters and getting things under control themselves. It is pretty cool to see those people trash every painting or statue that is of Saddam. You can tell they hated him now, there is no question at all. Today is a huge day for Iraq.

raid517

Yeah well law and order is a good thing, if there's going to an Iraq left for the Iraqis to build on.

Q

BWX

Oh yeah, like it's all going to evaporate because the US had anything to do w/ it. Good one raid. I guess we should have taken your advice and let Saddam stay in power for 15 more years and have inspectors run around like chickens w/ their heads cut off. The truth hurts in your case doesn't it raid? I guess you will say you were right though, no matter what happens.

BWX

What' the matter raid? loosing our cool are we? hmmm? Did I hit a nerve?

Is this bashing really needed? I thought we were trying to make the political debate forumless like the flame warzone!?!?!?!

Discuss, not insult raid, you can understand that concept, right?

raid517

I think I recall telling you in my last post to go sit in a corner and shove your thumb in a place where the sun don't shine...

It doesn't hurt my case at all. My case is law and order should be restored at the earliest possible opportunity. I never said Americans didn't believe in it. But yes, since civil authority has collapsed it is inevitable that there will be a period of anarchy. It is also in the interests of the allies to promote this period of anarchy, purely as a demonstration as to the extent of the collapse of Saddam's regime.

If you want to pick a fight with someone who thinks todays events were a bad thing, your going to have to look elsewhere. What I have said - and what I have always said is that I doubted the motivations behind this war, even if ultimately deposing Saddam Hussein was a good thing. I have never been anti-war, only ever concerned that things should be done legitamately and for the right reasons. We're America's intentions noble in this regard? Well that is what I - and most of the rest of the world are waiting to see.

Q

raid517

Well quit damn putting words in my mouth is all. I never said what hapend today was a bad thing. All I said was my concern was for the future now. But you decided to go off on some dumb tangent and accuse me of wanting the allies to loose the war.

That is such BS you don't know how much BS it really is. I am no traitor. Just because I care about the consequences of our actions doesn't make me a peacenik.

Anyway, like I said, quit putting words in my mouth and pick a fight with a real anti-war board member. Your barking up the wrong tree here.

Q

BWX

Oh, Ok raid, I understand now, in your mind the US will not have won the war in IRAQ until the conflict between Isreal and Palestine is solved.
Wow, that is a pretty tall order isn't it. For the US to win the war in IRAQ, we need to solve the 10,000 year old conflict between ISREAL AND PALESTINE.
Hmmm, I wonder what kind of quantum fractal logic this stems from? Great measure of success there raid.

That's like telling my machanic that the brake job on my car is not going to be complete until there is a new roof on my house! What the hell dude?

raid517

Oh and BTW, if you want to get upset at the tone of my posts, or anyone else does, well that's up to you. Its not like I give a damn about these petty squabbles anymore anyway. I have had a bad day today (nothing to do with this dumb war) and am in a bad mood and am simply not interested in any more bs.


Q

BWX

Ha, me get upset? I have been laughing at every post of yours while I respond to them. I'm not upset at all. Actually I am quite jovial. LOL, I take it the big bad wolrd got the best of you today then?

BWX

I did not say you wanted us to loose the war, I said you sounded like you MIGHT sound sad that we made it to Bagdad, and asked you if this could be true.

I never called you a traiter raid

I never said you were anti-war raid

raid517

Well that just shows the full extent of your ignorance. This whole stoopid 'war on terror' is about fighting with people who feel agrieved that the Palistinian's don't have a state of their own. Sove this problem and you wont have to have any more of these dumb wars. In any case Blair struck a deal with Bush that basically said that as a reward for Blairs involvement in the war on Iraq, Bush and co would push for real progess on a road map towars peace in Palistine. Unless you want to live in a constant state of terror and war, this really is the only way forward.

But yeah, it's not surprising you are unaware of these4 facts, as these are probably only a few of a great many you are unaware of.

I never said to 'solve' the Palistinian stituation, what i said was progess genuine should be made on a raod map towards peace. There is no point wining a war if you can't win the peace. The only way to win the peace is to finally make progress towars solving the Israeli/Palistinian question.

You want to argue otherwise? Like I said, go pick a fight with someone else. I am not in the mood.

Q

raid517

Ok.. Ok lets calm this thing dowm then... I am not anti war and am extremely pleased about the allies reaching Baghdad, OK? All I am concerned about, all I have ever been concerned about is the wider issues and what happens next.

Is that clear now? I sure hope so.

Q