The warmonger and the peacenik

bluelight

By Bill Davidson

--

PeaceNik: Why did you say we are we invading Iraq?

WarMonger: We are invading Iraq because it is in violation of Security
Council resolution 1441. A country cannot be allowed to violate
Security Council resolutions.

PN: But I thought many of our allies, including Israel, were in
violation of more security council resolutions than Iraq.

WM: It's not just about UN resolutions. The main point is that Iraq
could have weapons of mass destruction, and the first sign of a smoking
gun could well be a mushroom cloud over New York.

PN: Mushroom cloud? But I thought the weapons inspectors said Iraq had
no nuclear weapons.

WM: Yes, but biological and chemical weapons are the issue.

PN: But I thought Iraq did not have any long range missiles for
attacking us or our allies with such weapons.

WM: The risk is not Iraq directly attacking us, but rather terrorist
networks that Iraq could sell the weapons to.

PN: But couldn't virtually any country sell chemical or biological
materials? We sold quite a bit to Iraq in the Eighties ourselves,
didn't we?

WM: That's ancient history. Look, Saddam Hussein is an evil man that
has an undeniable track record of repressing his own people since the
early Eighties. He gasses his enemies. Everyone agrees that he is a
power-hungry lunatic murderer.

PN: We sold chemical and biological materials to a power-hungry lunatic
murderer?

WM: The issue is not what we sold, but rather what Saddam did. He is
the one that launched a pre-emptive first strike on Kuwait.

PN: A pre-emptive first strike does sound bad. But didn't our
ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, know about and green-light the
invasion of Kuwait?

WM: Let's deal with the present, shall we? As of today, Iraq could sell
its biological and chemical weapons to Al Qaida. Osama Bin Laden
himself released an audio tape calling on Iraqis to suicide-attack us,
proving a partnership between the two.

PN: Osama Bin Laden? Wasn't the point of invading Afghanistan to kill
him?

WM: Actually, it's not 100% certain that it's really Osama Bin Laden on
the tapes. But the lesson from the tape is the same: there could easily
be a partnership between Al Qaida and Saddam Hussein unless we act.

PN: Is this the same audio tape where Osama Bin Laden labels Saddam a
secular infidel?

WM: You're missing the point by just focusing on the tape. Powell
presented a strong case against Iraq.

PN: He did?

WM: Yes, he showed satellite pictures of an Al Qaida poison factory in
Iraq.

PN: But didn't that turn out to be a harmless shack in the part of Iraq
controlled by the Kurdish opposition?

WM: And a British intelligence report...

PN: Didn't that turn out to be copied from an out-of-date graduate
student paper?

WM: And reports of mobile weapons labs...

PN: Weren't those just artistic renderings?

WM: And reports of Iraqis scuttling and hiding evidence from
inspectors...

PN: Wasn't that evidence contradicted by the chief weapons inspector,
Hans Blix?

WM: Yes, but there is plenty of other hard evidence that cannot be
revealed because it would compromise our security.

PN: So there is no publicly available evidence of weapons of mass
destruction in Iraq?

WM: The inspectors are not detectives, it's not their JOB to find
evidence. You're missing the point.

PN: So what is the point?

WM: The main point is that we are invading Iraq because Resolution 1441
threatened "severe consequences." If we do not act, the Security
Council will become an irrelevant debating society.

PN: So the main point is to uphold the rulings of the Security
Council?

WM: Absolutely. ...unless it rules against us.

PN: And what if it does rule against us?

WM: In that case, we must lead a coalition of the willing to invade
Iraq.

PN: Coalition of the willing? Who's that?

WM: Britain, Turkey, Bulgaria, Spain, and Italy, for starters.

PN: I thought Turkey refused to help us unless we gave them tens of
billions of dollars.

WM: Nevertheless, they may now be willing.

PN: I thought public opinion in all those countries was against war.

WM: Current public opinion is irrelevant. The majority expresses its
will by electing leaders to make decisions.

PN: So it's the decisions of leaders elected by the majority that is
important?

WM: Yes.

PN: But George Bush wasn't elected by voters. He was selected by the
U.S. Supreme C...

WM: I mean, we must support the decisions of our leaders, however they
were elected, because they are acting in our best interest. This is
about being a patriot. That's the bottom line.

PN: So if we do not support the decisions of the president, we are not
patriotic?

WM: I never said that.

PN: So what are you saying? Why are we invading Iraq?

WM: As I said, because there is a chance that they have weapons of mass
destruction that threaten us and our allies.

PN: But the inspectors have not been able to find any such weapons.

WM: Iraq is obviously hiding them.

PN: You know this? How?

WM: Because we know they had the weapons ten years ago, and they are
still unaccounted for.

PN: The weapons we sold them, you mean?

WM: Precisely.

PN: But I thought those biological and chemical weapons would degrade
to an unusable state over ten years.

WM: But there is a chance that some have not degraded.

PN: So as long as there is even a small chance that such weapons exist,
we must invade?

WM: Exactly.

PN: But North Korea actually has large amounts of usable chemical,
biological, AND nuclear weapons, AND long range missiles that can reach
the west coast AND it has expelled nuclear weapons inspectors, AND
threatened to turn America into a sea of fire.

WM: That's a diplomatic issue.

PN: So why are we invading Iraq instead of using diplomacy?

WM: Aren't you listening? We are invading Iraq because we cannot allow
the inspections to drag on indefinitely. Iraq has been delaying,
deceiving, and denying for over ten years, and inspections cost us tens
of millions.

PN: But I thought war would cost us tens of billions.

WM: Yes, but this is not about money. This is about security.

PN: But wouldn't a pre-emptive war against Iraq ignite radical Muslim
sentiments against us, and decrease our security?

WM: Possibly, but we must not allow the terrorists to change the way we
live. Once we do that, the terrorists have already won.

PN: So what is the purpose of the Department of Homeland Security,
color-coded terror alerts, and the Patriot Act? Don't these change the
way we live?

WM: I thought you had questions about Iraq.

PN: I do. Why are we invading Iraq?

WM: For the last time, we are invading Iraq because the world has
called on Saddam Hussein to disarm, and he has failed to do so. He must
now face the consequences.

PN: So, likewise, if the world called on us to do something, such as
find a peaceful solution, we would have an obligation to listen?

WM: By "world", I meant the United Nations.

PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the United Nations?

WM: By "United Nations" I meant the Security Council.

PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the Security Council?

WM: I meant the majority of the Security Council.

PN: So, we have an obligation to listen to the majority of the Security
Council?

WM: Well... there could be an unreasonable veto.

PN: In which case?

WM: In which case, we have an obligation to ignore the veto.

PN: And if the majority of the Security Council does not support us at
all?

WM: Then we have an obligation to ignore the Security Council.

PN: That makes no sense.

WM: If you love Iraq so much, you should move there. Or maybe France,
with all the other cheese-eating surrender monkeys. It's time to
boycott their wine and cheese, no doubt about that.

PN: Here... have a pretzel, instead.

Falstaff

where did you find this gem?

bluelight

A guy posted it on a musician board i visit.I thought it was funny.It illustrates very good what has been said on boards the last months very well he he...

Bluey

Falstaff

Musicians, Artists and creative people in general....are divided on the subject of War and Peace...

SH4President

bluelight.

Thats the best post I have seen on this board.
The best way too harm a powerfull nation or person is by humor

ToshiroOC

That was frustrating reading, because so many different situations were broadly misinterpreted by both sides... for just a couple, 1441 was a Chapter VII resolution, Israeli resolutions were Chapter VI... and North Korea is not trying to spark a war with it's nuclear capability, it is only saber rattling to try and get more aid from the US.

The_Neon_Cowboy

Ok... for starters how about the locatrion that had be inpected by the ubinspectors twice but our troops found mass amounts of chemial suits and powder based exploseives.... chemical tringing information and a small amont of VX nerve GAS- a chemiacal weapon , and it had been there for a long time by the looks of things... as I do remeber if it was you or raid that siad this " well the weapons inspectors are not really looking for WMD" the iraqys are supossed to declare them / tell them were they are .... yea right like that would EVER happen....It looks like wepond inpectors missed alot like scud missles/chinaese ship to ship cruze missles/ FOGS a cold ware relliac not very accurate becouse it was primaly built to be used for WMD/ the huge amounts of chemical siuts and handleing information. So the sadia areabran lead and made mostly of sadia areabrans citzens (some county 19 of the sept 11th attackers came from....) I found this very disturbing as well as Iraq being head the the undisarmerment commision and libia being head of human rightd/war crimes comission. That like puting hitler in charge of the jews... and epect them to be treated fair .....nuff said

Falstaff

And wasn't it Rossevelt that sent a ship full of Jewish refugees back to Europe to die in death camps...ah crap, don't get me started. Saddam definitely has the means and the potentiol to use WMD, I believe it may be his trump card and he has entrusted the use to a subordinate that I hope and pray will recieve a divine ephiphony and not use it..

Falstaff

involved in the use of powerful weapons of incredible destruction and I got to kick the sand around in Iraq befroe we left, it is terrible and is nothing compared to what could happen now..I support our military, and their efforts to find this terrible cache of destructive technology..

Falstaff

So You Wanna Be An Anti-War Protester

A visit to Greenwich Village of a greater duration than 37 seconds can help you decide if you want to be an anti-war protester. On any given day, on any given year you'll find stickers on lampposts which say "NYPD = KKK." I didn't see any footage of guys in white sheets doing rescue work in the WTC, but hey that's me. I grew up outer borough.

You on the other hand have serious emotional issues and the voices tell you Bush is just like Hitler. You may have just what it takes to be a contributing member of those gatherings of needy people seeking negative attention otherwise known as protests.

So welcome to poseland. A strange world where image is everything but the worst thing is to be called a poseur. Here's the BloggerRabbit field guide to identifying the type of anti-war protester you'd like to be.

Specimen #1 - Local Yocal: These guys are the workhorses of the anti-war movement. Their grandparents were old communists, their parents are old socialists and they're like you know, um....kind uh...not into the whole conservative outlook thing. (Gee? Ya Think?). The world works in strange ways. If you live in an isolated environment like Montana and are afraid that current US policies means UN sponsored black helicopters are coming to tell everyone what to do and think you're a stupid hick. If you live in an insulated environment like The Village and are afraid that US policies means that UN sponsored helicopters aren't coming to tell everyone what to do and think: you're a sophisticated urbanite.

Specimen #2 - Really Rotten Artist: You'll get to employ such really cool phrases as "not what the establishment recognizes" and "who are you to say I'm not an artist" which in English means no one wants to pay for my crap and I'm ashamed to acknowledge that you hold the same opinion as everyone else I meet. Now with a war to protest, you'll really come into you're own. Those papier-mache puppets you made for the purpose of selling them to your friends for their baby's nurseries, were so bad they seriously emotionally scarred three month olds. Now you can say these are models of humans deformed from depleted uranium. No one will (in fact no one could) suspect these were not the original purpose of the puppets. You can also scrawl a Hitler mustache on George W. Bush. This will be the first time you've actually done portraiture. So stand up against the Man. He doesn't buy your Art and its time you let him know how you feel about that.

Specimen #3 - Preening CopFighter: These guys have convinced themselves somehow that fighting cops is tougher and more macho than what the US Marines do. They're sure that "fighting against the means to maintain the establishment" is a hell of a lot more macho than actual warfare. Reality won't set in with these guys since they would then have to face up to some serious latency issues. Dressing up in black boots, leather jackets and t-shirts with the proper anarchy symbol is not a uniform after all. Its liking how you look in black boots and leather. As for the Palestinian head scarf worn as a scarf around the neck, these guys have wanted to wear a scarf for a long time. They've finally found one "militant" enough to provide cover. If you consider the rumors about Yassir Arafat's predilections and then look at these guys you realize they're "natural allies" after all.

Specimen #4 - Concerned European Couple: The wife is always named Regina and had American parents, the husband is always named either Gunther or Torm. They make their living as lighting designers and decided they had to come out and let their dissatisfaction with the US government be known. Torm will tell you he's traveled extensively through Israel and the United States and they are actually his favorite countries to live in and visit. Its just that controlling their military might is "basic to European and World identity politics". He seems like a nice sincere guy so you don't think to challenge him. Then you go home and the following phrase runs through your mind....WTF????

Specimen #5 - Grass Roots Contingent: You can always rely on these guys to artificially swell the head count at any protest. They've got only one issue though that they care about. Legalizing marijuana and they've got a pretty clever catch phrase to let you know it. It goes "We smoke pot 'cause we like it a lot". Ironically they are very effective at getting people to change their minds about legalizing marijuana. Once you look at these guys its pretty obvious that marijuana did not rob them of their dreams to be brain surgeons.

Now its time to choose. A word of caution. You will not be allowed to inject any individuality or originality into these roles. While Jews, Catholics, Protestants, gays, vegetarians and more can run the entirety of the political spectrum on any given issue, you'll always look like you walked out of the sixties. So check your brain at the door and whatever shred of a personality you may have into the garbage. Its time to be an anti-American war protester. Remember. People dumber than you have risen far in their ranks. You'll just have to compensate.

Specimen #6 - Intelligent Protester: They exist, and are often ignored by many in preference of their stupider collegues.

ToshiroOC

Spacimen #6 - Intelligent Protester: They exist, and are often ignored by many in preference of their stupider collegues.

GOG

All chapter 6 resolutions against Israel have been vetoed by USA, there has been over 30 of them so far. 1441 was also about WMD only, where are the WMD? Just beacuse it's a chapter 7 resolution doesn't mean some countries can start wars at will.

raid517

Man what gets me is how down right vicious and nasty some of these right wing commentators are. People who protest are dum hicks hu? So maybe the peace and freedom protestors in the 60s in the American South shouldn't have protested - and the black people of America could still live under the shadow of oppression? The ability to protest is what makes a democracy/republic (call it what you will) a worthwhile place to live in. If you want to ban protestors, along with promoting state sanctioned torture, imprisonment without charge and all the other sh*t that has happend recently, then you just become everything you are supposed to be fighting against. When will the right finally undestand this? Or perhaps they don't care...?

The troops that are abroad ought to be thankful that the protestors exist, as this is the very reason they are supposed to be there. Or perhaps they will go there and impose a govenment and tell them that they are not suppsed to protest either? Isn't that dictatorship? Why would you wish to export these values when these people have spen so long struggling agaist them?

Q

Falstaff

There are lots of quiet people out there that have to work, and feed their families and feel as strongly against or for the war..It's just television, I don't give a flying you know what the media says...You don;t really get a good picture of americans watching the news. The same media that brings you the war in technicolor also bring you the sign waving people too, I take it all with a grain of salt.

raid517

So you don't value it? You don't value freedom of the press and freedom to protest? Then what values of freedom do you believe in Jeff? I think the ballance is about right - except that ordinary people's voices aren't always listend to quite as much as they should be.

I swear sometimes I don't understand republicans, they argue against freedom of the press, against freedom to protest against freedom of expression on the internet, in favour of repressive acts such as the patriot act, in favour of state sanctioned torture, in favour of locking people up without charge and on an on it goes... And then they go off and start wars in the name of something they call 'freedom and democracy.' What freedom and what democracy is that I wonder? One were speaking their minds, freedom of association and freedom of the press are forbidden and where torture and imprisonment without charge are common practice? Why do you need to invade them to give them this when they have this already?

Sigh... I don't know, as I said, you guys confuse the hell out of me sometimes.

Q

Falstaff

WE ARE CONFUSED, ha ha...I believe in Freedom but I know it comes with a price, I think antiwar protesters and professional malcontents (journalists) aren't willing to pay the price...but after the war is over and the dead journalists are eulogized maybe people will see the value of one aspect of freedom, it takes sacrifice to strengthen resolve..

bluelight

It is exactly like it was in the sixties today.Exactly the same.That time it ended with several million dead asians.

That time Usa managed to keep the UN out of it by blocking the issue in the security council for years.

Gonna be interseting to se the result of everything going on in the Mideast today.

Bluelight

BWX

LOOK bluelight! A guy that named himself SH4President or (S)addam (H)ussien (4)for President likes your little Saddam supporting post! Good job, way to win over the Saddam supporters.

Funny thing is, that whole thing is a bunch of BS-

Amazing how the WM never asks the PN one question isn't it? This portrays the PN having absolute control over the conversation, almost like a forced interrogation.

I can't help but think of the PN as an Iraqi soldier or Saddam himself and the WM as a coalition soldier POW tied to a chair after being tortured for days.
There is a light shining in his face and a gun pointed at his head, maybe a pair of pliers attached to his fingernails for good measure. (not too far fetched so far) There is someone in the background with big huge cue-card for him to read the answers off from and if he doesn't read them exactly as printed exactly when he is told he will be tortured more. That is the only time people on both sides of that argumunt would have that converstion. Very fitting for alot of peoples views towards Iraq though. You should send it to Saddam so we can but that on his gravestone.

Only a fool would think that post has anything to do with reality. The scary thing is that there are many people who would look at that and think that the fake Q&A session is a reflection on the way things are, when in reality it is nothing more than a person twisting (and breaking) the facts to support their anti-american arguments.


Read it again w/ that image in your mind- it fits perfectly! It sounds like it was writen by Bagdad Bob.

radTube

It sounds a lot more like any debate here.

Whyever did you get so worked up for something like that nice little piece of comedy? I thought it was quite funny actually, and not least due to it's accuracy. I've seen most of these arguments posted right here on DH Political Forums. Right down to the namecalling part...

bluelight

Look this is a pulic forum..Do we agree to that?

I am Bluelight...You are BWX...SH is SH....Now...lets keep it that way shall we....

Qoute BWX


"Amazing how the WM never asks the PN one question isn't it? This portrays the PN having absolute control over the conversation, almost like a forced interrogation. "




Again....you posed a number of questions...I have said before....YOU coupled them with insults so why should i answer them?

It is the fifth time on this board that someone is making allusions to my mental health or accusing me of supporting terrorism?Im not taking that from anyone.Not anyone.

Do i accuse you of supporting murder when i bring up that fact that Usa helped Saddam into power?

No i am discussing a fact that you as an individual is not rersponsible for.

No...followingly...you should not accuse me of either being screwed up or for supporting terrorism.

If you restrain from this i will gladly reply to whatever youque you have to ask.

Its your choice.

Bluelight