Maddogg6

Or... How about some non-biased sources - that site is a pro gun control site.

Sandok

Enslaved? How is losing your gun rights making you enslaved? By that definition, Europe is enslaved ?

Just to say, all the European constitutions had "something" about guns over the hundreds of years and we had people "die" to give us that freedom that nowadays, makes no sense.

You say communism never threatened the US because of guns? Then why didn't it threaten all of these other countries without guns?

Maddog, we don't live in the Cold War anymore and Capitalism has proven that its not any better than Comunism so why are you making this debate into a communism bashing thread? That''s got nothing to do with guns at all

Dowaco

Proven??? What does that mean? Better for whom?
Capitalism works for me and hundreds of millions of others.
Communism died with the Soviet Union. China isn't as "red" anymore and Castro is just about as effective as Generalissimo Francisco Franco.

The citizen's power over the government is a basic tenet of the founding of the US. Guns are a tool in this concept just as voting and trial by jury put power in the hands of ordinary citizens.

__________________
The above is my opinion and in no way reflects the views of this website.

Sandok

Honestly, the American democracy pails in comparaison to others, given that's its an indirect democracy. I guess maybe that's why you say you "need" guns to keep the goverment in check? Yet I still don't understand your "fear" of the goverment? I mean, they exist WITH you, not against you and you need them, given that without them, it's complete anarchy.

And again, guns are a basic tenent in the founding of ALL COUNTRIES based off the American constitution (France, Switzerland, Lichenstein, etc.) yet all these countries based off the american constitution have abandoned gun rights and nothing "horrible" has happened, in fact quite the opposite. Then again, you're a very young country so...

And while I live in a capatalisitc society too, it's not any better than communism given that it ruins one man's life for the well being of an others. Unless you like that, then I guess it works but again, that's going way way way off topic.

Maddogg6

Ok heres an example...
Joe lives in a poor neighborhood over run by drug dealers/thugs, and fears his safety when leaving his home - so he limits how often/when he leaves... Can joe afford to move to a 'safer' neighborhood? Probably not. Thats why joe lives there - its all he can afford.
Would Joe be safer if he could get that .22 that he *could* afford and thus be capable of protecting himself?
This is a real world type of 'enslavement' that a gun DOES help alleviate, and does happen MUCH more commonly than College/school massacres.
Trapped in a shit hole apartment in fear of your life sounds like enslavement to me - no?

Heres an example of a gun as a deterant....
A 'would be' thief may accept that job at Macdonald's instead of risking breaking into a home that *may* get them selves killed by potentially entering a gun owners house. This also demonstrates that - its not so simple to *just* say 'no guns = less murders'. Its much more complex than what most here are addressing.

Its my understanding that most gun violence is crook vs crook anyway or suicide - and those people - pff.. who cares really, I think Id rather they be dead anyways. Why should I give up my rights because of someone else's mental instability? The world is/getting over populated anyway. Ok - that sounds cold - rephrase - Id rather that than loose my right to protect myself.
Over what - a couple horrific events that will still happen - busses over bridges etc...

Anyone have stats (from a non-biased source) - on
gun deaths of those with no criminal record vs gun deaths of those with prior convictions in the US?
- would you argue my notion that its *mostly* convicts that get killed with guns in the US? Its what cops tell me anyway, but I have nothing to back that up.

You mean like all them ex USSR 'stan' counties? (Lithuania etc..) - those countries? Prolly some asian countries Im not recalling at tho moment too.

And maybe because the US was helping prevent the spread of communism?
Remember 'Ronny Ray Gun'?? (Ron Reagan vs russia reference)
Seems to me some public motivations behind the Vietnam and/or Korean war were to stop the spread of communism' too?
Or maybe - strategically - no others were worth the efforts/calculated losses.

Do I trust my gov't HELL NO! - if you trust yours, great! - good for you, although a bit foolish -imo it was the prelude to a lot our problems here -
1) trust politicians
2) leads to lack of political interest (who *likes* politics)
3) leads to low voter turn out
4) leads to the likes of Bush getting into office under suspicious circumstances starting illegal wars that basically guarantees more 9/11 crap in the future... and (drum roll please) 'un-officially' changing our constitution.


Lets review some parallels with communism we are now seeing thats changed since the constitution was signed.

I was told ANY US born citizen can become president. (legally true, but...)
Reality: Only those from rich families that can afford an Ivy league education have the opportunity to raise the huge TV campaign funds to stand any real chance of winning an election.
Doesn't this sound a lot like what our forefathers escaped from europe? Does to me anyway... (any Royalty here? ....anyone?)

National Security - the gov't legal right to lie to us. And eliminates a TON of checks and balances/accountability there *should* be.
'Its for your safety' - Im sure was the tag line for all the communist ideals. And is instrumental in a lot of other issues, some listed below...

Right to bear arms - now, only the guns on this list will we allow - and that list is shrinking.
Were/are there any communist countries that allowed all citizens to bear arms? - not any that I know of. AFAIK - gun bans is 1st priority for communist idealists. And controls can easily be turned to bans - as is happening currently, only slowly. So its not so much to cause a huge protest.
You see the gov't has learned that if they 'inch it in slowly' - we, the recipients, won't scream so much.

The right to fair trial and council/habeas corpus - now, not if your classified as an 'enemy combatant'. More communism here too...

Are you beginning to see a pattern here yet? Its a scary pattern that I see.
It looks alot like what I learned of communism. Only we call it democracy because we voted the jokers in who enacted many of these parallel laws.

I hope I explained this above...In case no...
How do you suppose russia took over all them (now - ...stan) counties - do you really think it could have happened if all them people were armed? - I firmly don't think it would have happened unless they wanted it.
Granted Im no russia history expert - but its my understanding it was more unwanted 'occupation' than 'protection'.

Also, you don't think history is capable of repeating its self with new modern twists? But the new twist on 'enslavement' *is* MUCH more effective - where you *think* you are free. This is accomplished by slowly removing freedoms when the opportunity presents its self to get the people on board (if not demand - like demanding gun bans when a hoffiric school shooting occurs). Its all about 'squeal points' and opporunity. Do you feel free? - how about now? - and now? - Slowly and surely freedoms are removed until one day realize - 'holy shit - we are communists/socialists - but call our selves democrats/republicans'.

Am I afraid of 'communism' - No! - its just a name, that party should have changed by now. No, Im afraid of the ideals communists possess(ed), like controlling everything - aka loss of freedoms.

'Communism' is a dirty word here, so that party would never show up on the election ballot. But how hard is it to 'buy a favor' from a political party or simply change the parties name with the same/similar ideals and try again armed with lessons learned of past failure.?

So yes...
me - guns = one step closer to communism with a democracy nameplate. And imo is relevant because its part of why I feel so strongly against additional gun controls.

Sandok

If that's what you call enslavement, you have a distorted view of reality. There is a root cause here (the dangerous drug dealers / thugs) and instead of aiming the problems at that, you superimpose another danger, armed citizens who'll shoot at the first sign of agression! Of course, don't aim for the medusa's head, just add more snakes...

Again, comes back to the same problem of the root cause vs adding guns to try and solve a problem they obviously can't. Just tell me why this sort of problem gets resolved in Europe without guns?

As for loosing your rights, you've already lost privacy and the right to defend yourself (Patriot Act and Guantanamo) but a little thing like guns is worth being dead for? Again, a very distorted view you have in my humble opinion. As for the stats, maybe try searching in the other thread, you might get some good links.

Yes you tried to get rid of communism, especially in China which was the reason other neighbouring asian countries needed your intervention and now, the next supereconomic power is a communist country... It's not a failed system and you must realize, not everybody has the yearning for democracy and freedom as you make it out to be. A different culture has completely different needs and wants.

As for Europe, I was more personally talking about central europe because to be honest, all those eastern european countries had (and still have) high amounts of guns in circulation so that doesn't really fly with your argument there does it? How can a pitiful population stand up to an army? It's just impossible.

I guess there is a lot of a paranoia in the US if you can't trust your own goveremnt. Honestly, I've never talked to anyone who doesn't trust their gov but I guess there is a first time for everything.

Reagan was a man who came out of nothing, a real riches to rags story so please, don't tell me only rich people make it. Anybody can, given enough hardwork and enough charisma make it big in the US, no matter what. Lincoln was also a real rags to riches story, so please. (And if ever, your forfathers left Europe because they were fanatic religious heritics believeing in polygamy and all (Morgan Christians anyone?), among others...)

National Security, I have no clue about the US situation so I own't comment but your gun argument falls short. I'm sorry, NO DEMOCRATIC country in central capitalist europe has allowed guns for years! In fact, most EU countries have the harshest gun regulations imaginable and look at what's happening... Nothing. No goverment implanting mind chips, no goverment stealing our property, no goverment killing its citizens. All is as it has always been. It was maybe an adoption in communist countries, but it has also been in all of democratic Europe and we aren't in any danger

You know, you can make anything look like you want... If you want to believe the Cold War is still going on and that communism is taking over the US, the capitalistic capital of the world, then... I dunno what to say

USSR and taking over had nothing to do with an armed population, as I said before. Finland, Ukraine, Afghanistan, etc all these countries had guns but what can peasants do against the might of a trained army? Please, don't kid yourself to that extreme.

Again, your sense of enslavement is compeltely irrational. These "rights" as you so call them (well the gun one) hasn't been installed in half the European countries and yet, we aren't any less free than you so? And again, socialism is only the enemy in your mind, because I don't really see it taking over the world, especially not the US.

Dowaco

Everytime you talk to an American, you are talking to someone who puts politicians on a par with used car salesmen in terms of trust. This point is not even debatable.
People have not trusted the government here since the late 60's
The Vietnam era had people protesting in the streets against the "man", the "system", and another word for cop was pig.
Don't you remember tricky Dick Nixon? Watergate?
Clinton and his spouse brought a whole new era of snake oil salesmanship to Washington.
Now whatever Bush does, he is second guessed because people think he is lying as well.
I live in New Jersey where another crooked politician is exposed every other day.
Some people feel that not only is it is their right to speak against the government, but their duty. Distrust of government is something the founding fathers wanted to perpetuate.

Once again, a debate has degenerated into USA vs the world. Sandok, you have to give it a rest. Your anti-American views are ruining good discussion. Try to see people for what they are without national bias. Americans on this forum do not go out of their way to promote America or to bash other countries. We are simply responding to your jabs, some of which are deserved but many of which are unfounded.

__________________
The above is my opinion and in no way reflects the views of this website.

Sandok

How is this turning into me bashing you guys, I thought it was the otherway around... I didn't know so many Americans blatently didn't trust their goveremnt.

As for my jabs, it's what you are portraying because I swear, the image of the typical American in my head was the one I had from Conneticut, all nice and everything but you've definately ruined that for me. I hate it that whenever somebody critizes the US, you guys go out to attack the world in an attempt to justify your actions.

I mean, who brought the fear of communism into this thread? Not me. If you feel that I'm anti-American, I'd love to invite you here and show you what "real" anti-americans are because honestly, I might critize the country and people but if you ask me to do that for the Swiss or any other population, I'd do the same. I've got nothing against you guys, but you just seem to take anything negative quite badly...

But yes, I will admit I seem to ruin these debate threads... I shall forever disapear Honestly, this sucks and I if I'm the cause, I will leave you be, don't need to ruin this thread.

Go on gun poll!

Maddogg6

You just dont seem to grasp the concept of 'deterrence' - if the thug *thinks* you *may* have a gun - you are less desirable of a target. The law that allows me to *potentially* carry a gun - in MANY cases is protection enough.
This IS the concept of 'deterrence'. Think 'cold war startegy' - NOT 'ME thinking we are STILL in a cold war'.
And - NOT ALL people go 'trigger happy' at the first sign of danger. Be real please. The good thing is crooks wont know if you would or not - BONUS!
Besides, those not 'comfortable' with guns - are not likely pull out a gun and fire in such quick reaction to danger.

And you don't call that 'enslavement' - ok - is it what you look for in a home then? No drug dealers in europe either? So what would you call this actual situation too many people live in today (in LA with the Mexican Cartel AND strict gun controls as a for instance - NOT a hypothetical)?

But you did hit on a good point - ROOT CAUSE... whats the root cause of murder - the gun or the persons mental state?
What is it? - are you gonna pursue 'root causes' - or sedate symptoms? - like remove a persons only real means of self defense and the inferred potential of ones ability for personal protection.

You complete missed that point. Ummm.... he was rich before he ran for president - he was an actor with ties in the political machine of hollywood. And he is a rare example for a president. (hes 1 of 2 actors turned president IIRC, out of how many presidents?)
Besides - He never set out to become president. - Its a backwards way to go about it... Do you get a beauticians degree to become a PC tech?

Name 1 president in the past 50 years that started a campaign on a 'working mans' salary and won an election. Good luck on that.
The chances of me becoming a famous Hollywood actor to earn the amount of $$$ (or in any other profession - with a 'working mans education') needed for a campaign is soo slim. Id have better chances of winning the lottery.

Man you are way over simplifying everything or not looking at the complete picture. But you are correct
1) its not just 1 thing like guns in hands of citizens or not. Its just 1 part of the equation. Economy, resources, troop counts etc.. - are also factors.
2) they had *as many* guns per capita as the US? - No! - Don't we have the most? Could have sworn someone posted that - the US has the highest concentration of guns in the hands of citizens in the world.
3) Whos kidding who here? - talk to an allied troop in Iraq - and ask if its tougher for them having 'citizens' with weapons. The allied troops aren't there fighting the Iraq military now are they... No! non miltary = citizen, plain and simple on this concept.
The Iraqis just have bigger weapons - but we have WAY more of the smaller ones.

1 person can take out some tanks with a molitov cocktail.
A single sniper can take out a 50mm Gun, RPG etc...
Don't under estimate an 'individual', I take it your not a member of your militias special forces.

hmm - so... why not ALL europe countries?? Some doubts to the validity of your statement perhaps or maybe just 1/2?
And yes socialism IS my enemy, more so than 'terrorists' as I live in a low priority target area, but still have to obey laws.

More examples of what I call 'enslavement'....
You mentioned 'required' weapons inspections for Switzerland militia gun owners - right?
Do these inspections happen at your whim and take only a few minutes?
Or do you re-arrange your schedules to meet with the inspectors?
What happens if your late for the inspection? - a $100 bonus - or some form of punishment?
What happens if their records get altered and *think* you need to have 3 guns but you only have 2? - another $100 bonus - or some more punishment?
This IS a type of 'enslavement'.

If you dont like the word 'enslavement' - feel free to call it what you like - its reality no matter what you call it. You are obviously not familiar with the joys of things like bank record errors and getting them fixed. Thats just about *your* money and a company (the bank) YOU pay to hold on to it... Now apply this concept to gov't and weapons. They can and *do* happen - NOT an irrational distorted sense of reality.


Not rational? - Europe's 'enslavement' is in higher tax rates as much as 2x more (Denmark is 30% vs US 16% (tho switzerlands tax rate is showing a 9.8% vs the US 16% - but we already established usa vs switzerland isn't a very good comparison anyway). Higher taxes is how you pay for all those police (per capita) needed to keep the peace I suppose.
Now... the 'enslavement'....
Do they send you to club med for not paying taxes there - or into a prison?
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...ice-per-capita
The US is not even in the top 48 on that chart. Switzerland is #35.
My definition of 'enslavement' is not unlike that of the authors of our constitution. I guess they were paranoid too?? No matter what you name things - the concepts don't change.

'All because your paranoid doesn't mean they arent after you'.

Enslavement <> 'traditional slavery' - its got a whole new twist now adays, a smart twist that has most people taking it up the ass while smiling and *demanding* more - just as long as it slipped in slow enough and lubed enough not to break any skin.

No, I did... you just fail to see how gun controls tie into communist ideals and is something Americans still remember ancestors/loved ones dying over to get rid of.

Correction - with good reason, since 1770's. (Boston massacre)


bwahahahahahaha - Thats becuase they are affraid to say anything -
Talk to russians, africans, afghanistanis, Iraqis. Wait... How many here at DH also indicated (in other threads) politicians cant be trusted. So - I KNOW you know others - SFOSOK - and I cant believe you didn't pick up on this with him by now - I did and I havent been here as long.

But your response was like I was lying to you about it or something.

I assume you lumped me in there too? - how so?
I'm the first to criticize our current admin - so, its not like I am defending any person/foriegn policy - hell no!

Again - 'root cause' - I agree... isnt mental stability of a killer the 'root cause'?
Take away a killers gun and he *may* reach for another weapon - but take away his desire to kill - and you have an honest gun owner that may save your life one day.
So whats the root cause here?


Distorted only compared to your idealistic views - of things
A killer can still kill with out a gun- right? Only now I cant protect my self from them so easily. How is this distorted - its called keeping the playing field level.
I did see some links of yours to pro-gun control sites.

not a failed system...wtf - do you even read what you post? Russia was quite successful for some time too - they WERE a super power (PAST TENSE for the most part) - So its 50/50 success/failure record - just counting Russia and China - how successful are the other counties like N Korea - compared to democracy - doesnt even compare. Even lower if you factor in the re-division of the USSR.
aka - poland is another failure, all them stans countryies etcc could be argued to be accounted for seperately as they are 'victoms' of those ideals as well - but ok - I'll keep it at 50/50 for your benefit. NOT a successful system either way is it?
really? - So why did the USSR break apart instead of a keeping their 'successful' system? You know how many communists escaped communism and came here? - Escape from a system that works? I think not.

AND it was already posted that china is not 'acting' so much socialist these days - but that could change at the will of a few people - instead of the majority rule of the entire country. So, laws and policy are not just about today - they are about tomorrow as well.

HawgsHead

When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns!!!

__________________
Rig specs to the left in the boxes....X-Box 360 w/Hitachi 42" HDTV....If Darwins theory of evolution is true then why are monkeys still monkeys?It takes much more faith to believe in Darwin's theory over the Genesis account of creation.

Calinerti

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=333_1177624795

The strongest evidence I've seen for gun owner ship. All I could think when I watched it was... please shoot it..... please shoot it......

The video contains some rather disturbing footage.

Maddogg6

why they didnt use tranquilizer darts is beyond me - it would have been just as effective - but Id bet there were laws against such things - where ever that happened.

Calinerti

I imagine there wasnt one handy. I'd have fired a shot into that animal if id been there. a life was at stake... time was of the essensce....