Heroic act by coalition soldiers!!!

GOG

Yes, I remember the USS Stark incident, it happened a year before the US-cruiser USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian commercial Airbus A300B2-202 airliner (Iran Air Flight 655), killing 290 civilians, among them 66 children.

raid517

Erm... No I don't accept that Saddam had links with international terror. None of these links were ever established, remember? So anyway where are you getting your intelligence reports from? Are you in the field right now? Do you have access to secret data no one else does. Don't you think maybe you whispered this report in your own ear? Anyway, it was so silly whatever it was you said I can't even remember it.

I often fing Gog's statements as difficult to read as I do yours, or of some of the other very right wing board members here. Still it is funny, his extremism matches your extremism perfectly - and he does a great job of getting right up your noses.

That's pretty much fair enough in my book...

Q

BWX

Bah, soft target "or so we thought"? What are you talking about?

The only reason the war wasn't over in 30 minutes is because the coalition has morals and wants to spare ALL innocent life! That is a VERY soft target. So soft that they have to resort to innocent human shields and fake surrenders to kill a few coalition forces.
Sometimes I think you are a smart person w/ misguided views, but when I hear you say things like this: ".........that Saddam was a relaitively soft target (or so it was assumed at the time)" implying that Iraq has somehow become powerful in any sense of the word and now they are not a "soft target" makes me wonder about you.

They are a pathetic terrorist regime that resorts to killing women and children and to forcing unwilling men to fight at gunpoint (while threatening the murder of those men's families) in order to gain ANY advantage they think they might have OR to extend their miserable excuses of an existance for another minute. We are fighting a war while trying to kill no one but the enemy, that is the ONLY reason it is taking longer than 1 day, NOT because Iraq is powerful in the least compared to coalition forces.

JavaFox

Jonathan Last, a columnist for the web edition of The Weekly Standard, put out a pretty decent article the other day. It is called "A Little Perspective, Please."

The pertinent points:

[W]e're now on Day 8 of the war and with only one or two exceptions, even the greatest, most lopsided military victories take longer than 8 days [...]

Even the French--the French!--were able to hold out [against the Nazis] for 44 days. If Saddam prolongs the fighting for another 5 weeks, all he will be doing is rising to the level of military competence set by France.


Frankly, this alarmism is unfounded and unecessary. The war will take as long as it takes. Getting all hot and bothered because it's going into its second week is silly, frankly.

Falstaff

whats your point...a stealth attack on a navy ship, by a country that was an ally, or the misfortunate actions of an iranian pilot, with a plane that had niether transponder and flew into hostile airspace, with civilians onboard, hoping, I am sure, that he wouldn't get shot down..I saw the offical report, and new crew members that manned the SM2 consoles when they launched, they were concerned because the plane flew an unusual flight path that mimiced initially a low atmosphere attack of aircraft the iranians were using that we sold them before the beginning of the Khomeni regime. And we could even throw into the mix, the disasterous off course flight of the KAL plane and it's passengers. all regrettable, because they could have been prevented....had we known the Iranians would fly into hostile space, had we know the russians were hiding submarines , had we know the IRAQI's wanted to draw first blood with antiship missles....The Russians apologized, The Iranians chose not to fly in that airspace anymore, and we relieved the commanding ofificer of a guided missle cruiser, effectively stopping a brilliant career....But Hussein, promised to compensate the families of the Stark crew, but never did officially, and the pilot of the attack aircraft that launched the exocet missles was promoted...The Russians have softened their tone, admitted culpability, the Iranians are senstive, but they obey stricter rules flying over hostile airspace, avoiding for the most part...but Hussein?.....well, not worth elaboration...you copied my quote for the purpose of throwing some historical fact into the debate...but the incident you describe, would never have happened had Hussein never assumed power and invaded IRAN. I am sure you don't understand the mission of the United States Navy in the Gulf, nor explaining it would shed any light on the subject for you, but had IRAN or IRAQ gained control of the gulf, things would have escalated out of control.in the middle east..

ToshiroOC

It still doesn't answer the question: How does leaving Saddam Hussein in power promote peace and justice in the Middle East?

You came through and basically said Israel was just as bad, and that the issue is whether the world is allowed to remove corrupt dictators.

The answer is that removing Saddam Hussein is a step in the right direction, and in America's position as the most powerful country in the world, it is our responsibility to humanity to remove this dictator. With power comes responsibility and we are living up to our responsibility with this war. You cannot denounce this war because America isn't going through with the wars you believe more important - this war is will bring longterm peace and justice to Iraq at the expense of shortterm peace. What America isn't doing cannot be used to detract from what America is doing.

BWX

So you don't agree that Saddam heads a terrorist regime? OK, you have lost all credibility.

So you disregard the report I heard ON TV because you say it is silly and don't remember it because you can't scroll up? OK, great argument. I won that one.

GoG's statements balance mine? Hardly- I argue my views w/ facts. Facts that you cannot deny, like that the coalition is doing everything in their power to carry out the mission without killing innocent civilians.

This is the statement he made that I was arguing:
" Heroic act by coalition-troops when a car drove up too a roadblock near Najaf , Iraq.
The soldiers told the driver too stop but the car keept driving.
The soldiers now opened fire and halted the car.
When the car was inspected the coalition found 13 passangers, all women and children.
7 was killed.
Good going by the heroic coalition soldiers.
They haveto make USA and England proud!!! "

I am not an extreminst. I am extremely certain that Saddam is a terrorist and should be taken out. If I am so "right wing" as you put it, why do 70 to 80% of the people in my country support the war? I would say you are extreme left by arguing with anything anybody that agrees w/ 70 to 80% of the American people. Unless you think the majority of Americans are extreme right wing. You go out of your way to bash the US and defend people like Saddam. I would say that is extreme.

raid517

Dude I'm not defending them. Nor am I saying I think this should be over so soon. (Personally I envisage an Isreal/Palistine type situation after we occupy Baghdad, so this war may never really be over). However it is true that Rumsfield made it know to quite a few people that he expected this to be over in a matter of days, that pretty much as soon as American troops showed up, the Iraqis would quit or run away. That hasn't happend. The reason it hasn't happend is because they view America as an enemy, like most Arabs. Why would they want or be happy about a sworn enemy supposedly rescuing them?

I just think this will take a lot, lot longer and will be much more complex and messy than anyone appears to have bargained for.

Time will tell I guess. The real fight seems to have just begun...

Q

BWX

I would not show my support for my liberator if my government were in my house w/ a gun to my head telling me to fight or they will rape and kill my wife and kids either. They will show their support for the coalition once they know they are safe. You wait.

Falstaff

is this some sort of loop we are in, WMD exist in IRAQ, who gassed the Kurds?.....who developed ground launched delivery systems capable of carrying chemical warheads, physics packages, toxic agents? the fact that they are hidden doesn't surprise me, another enlightened person mentioned that the skuds and silkworms are cleverly hidden in the desert, and are fired at Kuwait? Artillery rounds full of nerve agents? etc etc etc....and the purchase of VX gas from the French, we never saw it destroyed, for all we know it's still there in the desert somewhere...waiting.....What I see here is consistent symptom of selective attenuation,

Falstaff

Antiwar and pro american news, I don't like either to any degree, because writers and reporters cleverly construct their reports or arguments for their information. I am not confused about the facts, but I am careful to admit what seems plausible and factual from what is clearly driven by an emotional dynamic..I try to put myself in their shoes...IRAQI or Coalition...it can create a sense of perspective and insight..

raid517

No I think he is head of a brutal dictatorship. There is quite a difference. In any case Saddam being a dictator wasn't in any of the reasons or motivations we were given for going to war. I won't go on about America really quite liking dictators, but she sure doesn't seem to mind them.

No I said I thought you were talking out of your butt - and what you said was so pointless and silly it wasn't worth remembering. There is a distinct difference.

Lol what I said was I thought you were both capable of making some extreme points and I just liked the way he got up your nose. I didn't say I agree with everything he said.

Well that's all this 'pulling togther' stuff. As I said before, enjoy it while it lasts. If this does turn out to be another Palistine or Northern Ireland I doubt this support will last long.

We shall have to wait and see how it pans out I guess...

Q

raid517

Well even those behind 'friendly' lines aren't doing much celebrating, so yes you are right, we shall wait and see...

Q

BWX

Bahh Saddam is a terrorist, He is terrorizing his own people right now by using them as human shields, he is ordering people to ask for help and blow up Coalition soldiers in a car bomb. He has paid 25 grand a pop for people to carry out homicide bombings. How can this not be considered terrorism? They just found a bunch of terroist documentation in a target in northeast Iraq, he harbors terrorists. Come on.

Falstaff

I am a conservative, a military man from a military family, and I have been to Kuwait and Iraq....It is just going to get worse..the coalition has set wheels in motion...another world war is not far away...call me a crank, but it will be within the next 20 years if we are successful, and even less if we are not in removing Hussein from power....now that is scary...I studied history, and I see this whole situation evolving into another crusade against the world by fundamentalist muslims, perhaps tired of interference by corrupt nations from the west....

Falstaff

I will catch hell for this, but he has the admiration of the arab world, and his time has come...if there was ever a time for the U.S. military and the citizens of the free world to take notice has passed, his time has come to rage havoc on any nation that regards him as a jackel howling miles away, he is alot closer than anyone thinks...

BWX

Saddam is probably dead anyway- where was he today on his announced appearance?

raid517

Well this has certainly galvanised opinion in much of the arab world and has brought them much closer to Ossama Bin Laden, where the west is seen as an invader and occupier and a suppressor of arabs. Now it seems Ossam's view in the Muslim world have now become main stream. Was this the desired result?

Q

Falstaff

And I know I will really catch hell for this, but......He has been studied for sometime by our agencies responsible for finding him, and his has earned their grudging respect, even though they would probably put a bullet in his head, he just keeps throwing bodies in their path....he is elusive,and I believe he is being hidden by a dissedent pakistani para military force in the northern mountians...

BWX

It is kind of funny, but it could be as simple as this..

Mom, he hit me first!

They decided to attack us, now they will pay. If that causes world war 3 then so be it. If a whole bunch of people in the middle east hate us now, so be it- Obviously they already did before this.

GOG