Another Shooting...Another Death: At CNN Headquarters

Calinerti

Lets not become confused, Maddogg6. This isnt the cold war. I didnt mention self control. Who said it isnt important. What it means and what we should learn from it is. (The fact that I wasnt educated in an American school is for another debate.)

example...

If I walk down hew street and come across an individuual who chooses to attack me, verbally, racially, physically.,... whichever. Now. That person chooses NOT to censor their own behaviour. If I, like him, choose not to censor mine, then what do we have? I pull my weapon and he pulls his. We therefore RELY on another agency to keep us in check. Namely the police force, in most instances. Would you like enough rope to hang yourself?? If the police are charged with the responsibility of my behaviour, how free am I really? Tell me that "freedom isnt free". Tell me it costs over 80 AMERICAN lives per day......... And vote for a police state....... attaboy............

BlueMak

I didn't know I had to be in the Swiss military to know anything about it.
You can call it grandma's pie if you want to, it is still an army and very well equiped too.
As for how Switzerland became rich, let's leave it.

>GSXR<mrbusa

Why would you want to save 80 lives a day?
Do you know at the breeding rate of all the so called good people on this earth is going to kill this planet. This is not a could happen statement, it is going to happen and will have direct impact on young people living today. These types of murders are not caused by the gun existing, they are caused by the insanity that comes with living the American dream in todays environment. This cesspool that is called Earth is already gasping for it's last breath. There are places on this planet that have so many people that they should never be able to breed again. A good idea for the first step to slowing this process down would be to have a computed lottery that assigns one person to be murdered by fifty percent of the adult population. A good idea for the second step is to make every parent with more than one child pick a true favorite, if you know what I mean by that then just blink twice. A good idea for the third step is to make it legal for every man to terminate one lying, cheating, and manipulative ex-wife or girlfriend. If we eliminate every person in New York and Washington DC we can level the cities and bury everybody from all the steps of the USA sacrifices as long as we stack them three deep.

I look at every murder as one more millisecond that my sons child is going to be able to live a semi normal life.

Sandok

Equiped is one thing, trained is another... Meh even the Indian army is better

Anyways, I don't see the point of this, I live here and serve the country (unfortunately), I sorta know what it's like No need to convince ya

temeteus82

Or Swedish army

Maddogg6

Dude, I already addressed this more than 1 time... counter one of my points.
But Yes - 'SIMILAR' problems will still exist. Not exactly the same. But no crime is identical anyway.
1 wack to the head with a pipe wrench can cause death
1 stab wound can be lethal
1 time run over by a car can be lethal
All impulse violence replacements.
edit: and all things that are dismissable as 'normal' things to have handy and not 'flagged' as a weapon' - if people use these as weapons I will loose some freedom to use these items as intended. /edit

A gun shot doesn't guarantee death either...

Only now its - physical strength that decides an outcome in any violence - until police (with guns) arrive / if they arrive.
and dont skip the following either......

So how is this working in Russia that has more murders than here - and don't they have gun bans in Russia? Proof your ideas don't work in reality.

1) Death from violence are *most often* the result from other criminal activity than it is a 'wacko' showing up and shooting their spouse/lover. Examples like these are a small percentage and hardly happens everyday like robbery does.

2) And crime is NOT about how many guns there are - edit: or even about self control as much as.. /edit - its about economy. Any one will tell you crime and economy are directly related.

Evidence:
Switzerland has enjoyed a good economy - and less crime overall.
Russia has had a bad economy and more murders than the US despite their gun controls.

Unfortunately - economies change here - so - Id rather just keep my gun for when economy is bad.

Maddogg6

edited - goes off topic... nevermind

Maddogg6

You confusion of the terms - 'control' and 'censorship' - tells me english is not your native language. Im not confused. Cold war has nothing to do with anything.

Sandok

Maddogg6, this is pointless... You have that typical american manner of thinking about guns and I've had this discussion before, you won't budge of course, and neither will I seeing as I have a typical anti-american manner of thinking about guns.

Out of curiosity, do you actually own one?

Tinkerhell

Wow. So much to respond to. And now that this got moved to Pol & Rel I feel free to respond in full!!

The Swiss(Sandok) - so let me get this right (I thought this was the case but I wasn't sure until you brought it up) EVERY male in the country has to join the militia for a short period of time right? This is a known fact for all residents right - good guys & bad guys. I bet during that time in service you are trained to FIRE GUNS? Right. You might not do it alot, you might not be required to be really good at it but you do it. And everyone in the country knows that every man in every house knows how to shoot a gun. What do you do with those guns when you are not serving? Are they by chance at home? With you? I live in the USA so I don't know for a fact but good ole Wiki says: The personal weapon of militia personnel is kept at home as part of the military obligations. This, in addition to liberal gun laws and strong shooting traditions, has led to a very high gun count per capita. (source) Hmmm. I wonder if the fact that every BG in the nation knows that there is VERY high probability of any given resident having a gun and knowing how to use it has anything to do with crime rate in that country...

This is a bit more on the subject from John Lott, a well known, respected & recognized 2nd Amendment supporter here in the USA.
The irony is that to stop crime Switzerland is seeking to emulate the strict gun-control regulations of its neighbors, when the reverse should be the case. Neighboring Austria, France, Germany, and Italy, all with stricter gun-control laws, had murder rates during 2000 that were 21 to 112 percent higher than Switzerland's. With the exception of Austria, they all also have far higher robbery rates. Only Italy had fewer reported rapes. In England and Wales, where handguns are totally banned and few people are allowed to own rifles or shotguns, the murder rate was 68 percent higher, the rape rate 188 percent higher, and the robbery rate a staggering 493 percent higher. (source)

Examples of things that only happen in the USA - You mean like the following:
On September 27, 2001 — a lone gunman shot and killed 14 people in the cantonal parliament in Zug, near Zurich.
A couple of others to make the point.
Date
Place
Dead



26 Apr 2002
Erfurt, Germany
16 + 1
28 Apr 1996
Port Arthur, Australia
35
13 Mar 1996
Dunblane, Scotland
17 + 1


These are a bit old, I'll grant, but I could dig up as many as you want most likely. Basically anywhere you have crazy people you can have terrible things like that above (or the recent school shootings) happen. I will agree with you about is that the Liberal (mostly anti-gun) USA media is great about milking gun crime for everything its worth. If you still think it's because of the availablity of guns how about this - IED's aren't exactly available at the corner supermarket yet dozens of these things are killing 100's of peole in Iran every month... If there is a will to do something bad there is a way. Which is also my argument against the "moment of heat" gun killing issue. I will bet that any person who loses their shit enough to pull a trigger is also totally capable & will find a baseball bat, a kitchen knife or some other "tool" to take out their aggression with. See the next topic for a perfect example.

Never heard of anyone defending themselves because they carried a gun - My response here then is: You never looked. If you do you will find thousands of examples. Things that are as innocuous as -
A man is pumping gas in a bad section of town & sees a suspicious seedy looking person approching in an agressive manner. The "soon to be victim" displays the fact that he is carrying a pistol (doesn't draw it or anything else, just opens his jacket up to review the gun on his hip) and the aggressor turns around in mid stride & hauls arse.

To something like this:
As customers watched in horror Sunday afternoon, a man stabbed a woman and attempted to set her on fire in the parking lot of a Jackson store, witnesses said.
The attack was stopped by a passer-by, who held the man at gunpoint until police arrived, witnesses said.
The suspect, Henry Watson, 42, was arrested and is expected to face aggravated assault charges, Jackson Police Department Cmdr. Lee Vance said. Watson's wife, Gracie Watson, 42, was transported to the University of Mississippi Medical center, where she was listed in good condition.
"It wasn't five minutes from when she had left my line when I heard a scream outside," said Theresa Stuckey, a cashier at the Family Dollar at 516 Nakoma Drive in Jackson. "I looked out, and (the attacker) was on top of her stabbing her, and stabbing her and stabbing her.
"She was screaming, 'Help, he's trying to kill me!' She was rolling on the ground, trying to get out of the way, but he kept stabbing her. He stabbed her about 20 times in the neck, back and arms."
As the attack continued, people were yelling at the man to stop and honking their horns, Stuckey said. She said she called 911.
"He was just standing over her hacking away," said Dolly Baker, who had just left the Save-A-Lot store next door when she saw the attack.
Baker said she watched the man pour gasoline on the victim then try to strike a match.
"He was literally trying to kill that lady in broad daylight," she said.
Baker said a passer-by stopped the attack.
"He told the man, 'Stop, or I'm going to shoot. And if you run, I'm going to kill you,' " Baker said.
The man held Watson at bay until police arrived at the scene.
"Right now, all we know is that (Watson) attacked his wife. For what reason, we don't know," Jackson Police Department Sgt. Eric Smith said.
Police said they are looking for the passer-by who stopped the attack and would like to talk to him but don't know who he is or where he went.
The incident occurred about 3:50 p.m.
Smith said he did not know exactly how many times Gracie Watson was stabbed but said it was more than 10 times. (source)


continued

Vikingod

I'm confused, are you saying violence is accountable for 80 deaths a day? So, 29,000+ a year?

The Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000, shows that the United states is 6th in the world for murders, with 12,685 in the three years 1998-2000, or rounghly 12 per day nationwide. Given yes, 8,000 of those muders were with firearms (1st in the world), my guess (and I dont have stats for this) most of them were involving subjects with a relationship, meaning not random. It should be noted that crime trends are often better indicators of the quality of law enforcement than they are of actual crime.

The media hoopla is just that, hoopla. Guys, the US is not the worst in the world for violent, random, crime. Do I fear for my life or the life of my kids when I leave the house or go on vacation? No. I've been in FAR worse places believe me. I've seen a man nearly beaten to death in a bathroom for looking at a police officer wrong. Was that in the US? No. There really isn't a lot of places in the country that I would feel concern for my safety and I've been to many different places in many different cities, good, bad, rich and poor.

To put the black dot on an entire country for the acts of some nutjob is childish. I just read today about a guy in London that chopped up a buddy with a Freddy Krueger glove he'd made. Is it crazy? Hell yes. Is that representative of the country, I think not. Every country has insane people in it, just a fact of life.

The real issue is this. If there are people out there (world wide) that can't control their anger or can't rationalize that mudering someone over a dispute, religion, sexual preference, skin color, age, favorite football/soccer/hockey team, social status, financial standing, and all the other crazy shit people are killed over; why aren't people trying to figure it out, understand the issues, and doing something about it? If anything can be done at all.

Maddogg6

You mean I have the typical conviction of an American for what I believe in - thank you this is a compliment. So why do you bother even responding?

Come on man - counter argue a point I make - if your gonna debate.

Yes - multiple. (one for every occasion)

Tinkerhell

Cozumel - much of what you are stating is your opinion & feelings (which we are all 100% entitled to) and your evidence is anecdotal, though certainly valid for you. I counter with the thought that you were not a typical criminal. The below also goes along with what Maddog & I both claim - unless you can wave a wand & make guns just not exist any more the only thing a gun ban is going to do is take them out of legal owners hands & embolden the bad guys to do even worse.
To wit the following: it was rather long so this is bits & pieces. The full thing is at the source.

New findings on how offenders train with, carry and deploy the weapons they use to attack police officers have emerged in a just-published, 5-year study by the FBI.
Among other things, the data reveal that most would-be cop killers:
--show signs of being armed that officers miss;
--have more experience using deadly force in "street combat" than their intended victims;
--practice with firearms more often and shoot more accurately;
--have no hesitation whatsoever about pulling the trigger. "If you hesitate," one told the study's researchers, "you're dead. You have the instinct or you don't. If you don't, you're in trouble on the street...."

From a pool of more than 800 incidents, the researchers selected 40, involving 43 offenders (13 of them admitted gang bangers-drug traffickers) and 50 officers, for in-depth exploration. They visited crime scenes and extensively interviewed surviving officers and attackers alike, most of the latter in prison.
Here are highlights of what they learned about weapon selection, familiarity, transport and use by criminals attempting to murder cops, a small portion of the overall research:

Predominately handguns were used in the assaults on officers and all but one were obtained illegally, usually in street transactions or in thefts. In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study was obtained from gun shows. What was available "was the overriding factor in weapon choice," the report says. Only 1 offender hand-picked a particular gun "because he felt it would do the most damage to a human being."
Researcher Davis, in a presentation and discussion for the International Assn. of Chiefs of Police, noted that none of the attackers interviewed was "hindered by any law--federal, state or local--that has ever been established to prevent gun ownership. They just laughed at gun laws."
Almost all carried when on the move and strong majorities did so when socializing, committing crimes or being at home. About one-third brought weapons with them to work.
Twenty-six of the offenders [about 60%], including all of the street combat veterans, "claimed to be instinctive shooters, pointing and firing the weapon without consciously aligning the sights," the study says.
"They practice getting the gun out and using it," Davis explained. "They shoot for effect." Or as one of the offenders put it: "[W]e're not working with no marksmanship....We just putting it in your direction, you know....It don't matter...as long as it's gonna hit you...if it's up at your head or your chest, down at your legs, whatever....Once I squeeze and you fall, then...if I want to execute you, then I could go from there."
The offenders were of a different mind-set entirely. In fact, Davis said the study team "did not realize how cold blooded the younger generation of offender is. They have been exposed to killing after killing, they fully expect to get killed and they don't hesitate to shoot anybody, including a police officer. They can go from riding down the street saying what a beautiful day it is to killing in the next instant."
"Offenders typically displayed no moral or ethical restraints in using firearms," the report states. "In fact, the street combat veterans survived by developing a shoot-first mentality.
(source)

Continued.

Tinkerhell

That's the spirit! I'm still working ont he one for every occasion. My only compaint about guns is that I can't afford all of them I want.

What part of the US are you in MD?

Sandok

Every male, if deemed physically, mentally and psychologically apt will serve the army, yes. But again, even if that does mean some families keep the gun at home (it’s not an obligation if you don’t want a gun at home). But you see, thanks to the screening few people actually get the gun… Secondly, the Swiss government is DAMN strict about what one can do with the gun. Bullets are checked regularly (if any are missing, it’s an inquiry and worse) and all in all, the entire system is quite strict so that nothing can really go wrong to be honest… And you know, let's say that all the men in this country have access to guns (don't forget, only SWISS people have to do the army, no foreigners), we still rarely have gun crimes here and when one does happen, it's horrible of course.

I remember that one in Zurich… Terrible… But one thing that I’d like to bring to your attention, concerning the Swiss incident since I’m most informed on it, that happens so rarely… I mean, when I lived in the US, there was news of shootings and everything quite regularly but here, it happens maybe ever 6-10 years? People that want a gun will get a gun and commit a crime, but the difference in between at least my country and the US is the frequency of which this happens… Then again, you are quite a few more… But still, I can’t help but see that guns per say are a problem. And don’t tell me that guns aren’t easily available in the US. I lived there and where I was (CT), it wasn’t that difficult at all for somebody to have a gun.


It’s true, it must save lives from time to time but honestly, I searched and rarely found any examples. But thanks for brining that one up, that’s at least one example I can use

Mate, how can I respond? A couple of guys on this forum are so typically American it’s quite shocking! I mean, well I’d love to debate but this is like trying to convince a fervent catholic that dinosaurs exist or trying to convince a paranoid fool that 911 was angry muslims, not a huge illuminati master plan. No point in wasting my time for something that’s falling on deaf ears.

Tinkerhell

You are correct.
Want to take a guess at how many of those violent crimes were performed by legal gun owners? I don't have a number but I'd bet my socks it wasn't too many. See the above post.

I wonder how many of those victims could have been "not victims" if they or a witness/bystander had been armed, responsible & done something to prevent the crime?

And to specifically address the bolded bit which I assume came from the author, who assumedly works for english.people.com.cn (which is a Chinese publication right?....) I own several guns. I've yet to ever see one of them murder somone. I know hundreds of other guns in a casual manner through friends and family. Never seen or heard of any of them sneaking out at night & going on a killing spree either.
Guns do not kill people.
Guns are a TOOL that exist in our world today. Bad people get these tools and use them to perform bad things. If you take these tools away from those people that will admit to owning them (because they are good law abiding cititizens) that will only leave the BG's with these tools and that makes the BG's that much more powerful & uncontrollable.

Washington DC is the most crime ridden metropolis in the USA. Guess what the gun policy is in that area? (although unless Congress screws it up, the Supreme Court is finally going to do away with DC's illegal gun policies soon!!! YAAAAAA!!!)

Here is an anlogy for anyone that thinks guns are bad because people die when BG's use guns in crimes.

Gun Owners = Murderers like Photographers = Child Porn Producers(CPP). I asked her how she would like to live in this world.
You must have a state issued licence to own or purchase any camera or film. It will be issued by your local police chief and they can reject your application for any reason they choose. They can reject all applications if they so choose.(may issue)
You must pass a background check every time you want to buy a camera.
You must register all your cameras with the state.
Camera stores must have licences issued by the federal government to sell cameras.
All your photos must have copies sent to and registered with the Bureau of Photography. So they can approve them as not being inappropriate. BATFEP perhaps?
All your photos must display the serial number of the camera on the photo for the purposes of tracing them back to your camera.
You may not bring cameras into schools as children are there and it's assumed you would be taking inappropriate pictures of them.
You may not bring cameras into courthouses as it's assumed you would be taking pictures of witnesses there for the purpose of identifying them for intimidation or retaliation.
Telephoto lenses over a certain power are banned as they are only good for long distance secret inappropriate pictures of children.
"Evil Black Cameras"(solid black cameras) are banned as they are only used in concealment of your activity in taking inappropriate pictures of children.
Cameras that take more that one picture per press of the shutter button are banned as they have no purpose except to take multiple inappropriate photos in rapid succession.
Rolls of film of more than 10 exposures are banned as they could only be for taking many inappropriate pictures in short time without having to reload the camera.
Camera phones or inexpensive cameras under a certain size would be referred to as "up-skirt specials" and be banned as they have no good use. Even if they are all that the poorest of people can afford.
Your cameras must be stored inside a locking container or equipped with a disabling device, approved by the state, to prevent unauthorized individuals from operating it.
A lost or stolen camera must be reported to the police within 24 hours or you will be fined or imprisoned even if you are thousands of miles away on vacation and are completely unaware of the theft.
Camera dealers are not allowed to sell or transfer ownership of any camera not approved by the state.(CA & MA) As a result there are brands you will never be able to buy and the ones you can will take up to a year for a new model to be approved. The attorney general can reject any camera he/she sees fit. Even it it passed the testing mandated by law. You may not buy any of the unapproved cameras in another state and bring it home.
Some municipalities will completely outlaw the possession or ownership of cameras and you may not know you have crossed into one until you are arrested for taking a picture of a bird in a tree.(NYC/DC/CHI/...)
Camera ownership will immediately make the police suspect that you are a CPP whenever you tell them you own a camera.
Anytime you sell or give a camera to someone else you must go to a camera dealer and pay to have a background check run on that person to close the "Photography Show Loophole".
Camera ownership will also come with these social benefits.
Whenever you meet someone and they learn you are a photographer you will have to live with their assumption that you own a camera to produce child porn. Many will accuse you of owning it for that purpose to your face. Some will call you some kind of idiot or backwater hillbilly.
Every time child porn is discovered the media will blame the camera and refer to it as only good for producing child porn.
Politicians will frequently refer to cameras you own as only good for producing child porn and will actively try to ban them and confiscate them. They will tell you that you don't need this camera or that camera and try to ban it even if you want it and would never commit a crime with it. What you want will be meaningless to them. They would try to levy taxes on film with the intention of making it so expensive that you can no longer afford to buy it.
People would ignorantly think that if cameras or film were banned all forms of child porn would cease to exist and no longer be produced. Even when there are examples of countries that ha