Another Shooting...Another Death: At CNN Headquarters

Sandok

Okay let me bust your chops

Switzerland has a no gun policy (you can't buy one, simple unless under special permits and all)

1) We don't have guns, and if we do, it's under damn strict regulations.
2) We have one of hte lowest murder rates in Europe

SWITZERLAND has NEVER had a foreign occupation durring war time... And we don't even have an army.... Wow we must do "something" right

Maddogg6

True, but maybe its because of your strict neutral position in military/foreign policy and is of little interest (being land locked, and geographically small with more mountains than resources) and 'good fortune' contributed by us 'gun lovers'....

1) 'good fortune' hardly counts as 'doing something right'.
2) you can also thank my 'gun toting' grand pappy who fought the germans in WWII for this prevention. much more so than any gun bans...
3) And *if* you were to be occupied - you have little chance to protect yourself.

And... 'lowest murder rate' - you didn't say 'per capita' either??? and also infers it still occurs - right?

Got any other examples of counties where gun bans actually work to reduce death from violence?

Los Angeles has gun bans and has had practically zero affect. Your not allowed to own a semi automatic weapon - yet they are still used in crimes - only now honest citizens have no chance against these thugs. Because *honest people* are the only ones who will obey laws.
Sure - life may be better if guns were never invented - but its too late now for that dream.

Sandok

Well come on, we were in the middle of europe and could have been invaded at any time... CH has never been in a war and never will be, we know how to keep out of it.

And your grand pappy was in the army, a little difference... And nobody wants to occupy us, we harbor the world's terrorist money and don't piss anyone off

As for an example, I can't name any off the top of my head but what I can do is give a few examples of things that have never happened anywhere but hte US. Remeber that Sniper Shooter in washington? Or the bank heist where over 500 bullets were spent from the terrorists? Or the school shootings and the university shootings? None of those every happen elsewhere, why? Is it the population or the guns? What seems most logical to you?

Maddogg6

Violence and logic - in the same sentence - violence is not logical - so we cant apply logic to it.

I have no doubt that - If those shooting weren't to happen with firearms - it would have been - mass poisonings or serial stranglings - or what ever....
edit: you are right to a point, but total gun bans dont offer a balance of saftey and protection - knowing gun bans dont have an effect that justifies the loss of personal protection. /edit

BUT he was an excellent shot - why - he owned and shot his guns before the army... so his pre-war marksmanship, I am confident, helped save his life - and maybe your ancestors too ???. If he wernt, you could be posting from 'Germany' right now?? edit: but I *know* I would not be./edit

cozumel

I will support my argument then:
Me and my sister were bought up in an unhappy home. My sister and I both had counselling as children and my father went to prison. I ended becoming street homeless when 15 and developed an alcohol problem. By my twenties I was using drugs on a daily basis including crack and LSD which I mistakenly thought helped me to cope with my emotions and childhood memories. I survived without welfare or any ID and lived outside the system. To pay for my habit I became heavily involved with the distribution of controlled drugs and the import/export of stolen goods. I would always carry a weapon as I knew my enemies (including other gangs, the govt, police AND Joe Public) would also carry arms. Due to the lifestyle in which I had become entrenched and the line of business that I was involved, people got hurt and some people did die.

The point I am making with my briefly summarised life above: If others did not carry arms than I would have not felt the need to do so myself. In my opinion the law that allows individuals to bear arms creates death and misery.

BTW, in case anyone thinks otherwise, I feel great sorrow for peoples lives that I may have damaged. I am thankful that I was never prosecuted for any crime that I may have committed. When I was about 30 I overdosed and was in hospital. While I was there I realised I had only four options:
1. I will be shot and die
2. I will die due to medical complications caused by drug habit
3. I will serve a life sentence
4. I stop using drugs and end my involvement in crminal activity

I chose option 4. Now I am paid by govt as a Social Worker and use my experiences to help others. I do 'roadshows' to special schools for troubled teenagers who have been excluded from mainstream schools due to their behavior to tell my story and prevent others from following my path. I advise govt on devising strategies to tackle the causes of street-based crime.

Bottom line - A gun can kill. Lots of guns can kill lots of people. Taking the right away for the average citizen to carry firearms would reduce the number of gun related incidents and deaths.

Sandok

Apart from that, I've never heard of a case where somebody was actually able to defend themselves because they carried a gun...

Maddogg6

There were laws against drugs right - but you still got em
Laws against theft - but you still did it.

The only one that would obey a gun law is 'average citizens' - not thugs and druggies.

This argument sounds more like someone still in the 'export' business and are fearing their life because an 'average joe' may still shoot them... no disrespect or accusations intended. But I backed up my point already.

Maddogg6

1) of course not - you have gun bans...
2) its called a deterrence - if person 'a' who carries a weapon and alot of cash - and person 'b' is unarmed - who do you think will be robbed first?
Historically - crooks prey on the weaker - someone carrying a weapon is not viewed as weak.
edit:
3) stories of deaths are much more interesting to the media when it does happen.

BlueMak

What are you talking about? Switzerland has one of the most organised armies in Europe. One of the reasons that noone has tried to invade Switzerland during the modern times is that, why they fuck would anyone want to? Anyone who want to pass from one side of the continent to the other can find easier targets/ways than through Switzerland.


Regarding occupation of the USA...are you kidding me? Who could even attack the USA to manage to occupy parts of it? You have the highly sophisticated, huge and far superior Mexican and Cuban armies on the south, the barbarian bloodthirsty Canadians on the north, and billions of fish on the east and west. Who could invade the USA in the first place?

Sandok

I said we have strict regulations... And I'm glad I don't have those kinda stories here, not really missin out!

You see, it's easier to not have crooks and no need to carry a gun....

The media exists here too you know...

What?! We don't have a professional army, it's a militia and I'm part of it so trust me, I know when I say it's pathethic... And all the transportation goes through CH you know That's the reason this country is filthy rich, all the main trade routes go through it (italy to holland for example)

cozumel

I can only give my personal viewpoint as to my reason for carrying a weapon was to defend myself. I do agree - Many offenders would still carry guns. But there would still be a drop in 'spur of the moment' killings if a weapon was not available among the general population.

No offence taken. This is the problem with forums. For all anyone knows I could be talking bullshit even though I am not. I'd much prefer to be in a room with all 500 DHers to show what I was and what I have become. I am no longer involved, nor will I ever be again. All I want is to prevent the misery that I once helped cause. I do not have the power to undo events. I do have the power to change what happens on our streets today. I do have the skills to enable those who are at risk of sleepwalking blindly into a whirlpool of destruction to see that other roads are available and their goals and ambitions can be fulfilled. That they do have choices. And what it can lead to by carrying a firearm that you 'believe' is only for defense.

Maddogg6

Your right - no one - I like it this way....
How do you suppose this situation came to be? - by being able to protect oneself and making it clear to everyone of it.

Mexico would love to invade ('you stole California and Arizona from us') - but wont because of our current ability to protect our selves. So they are doing it in a much less violent way as we speak.

Maddogg6

And I would like to keep mine as well too...

I never killed anyone - I never even thought it - so - yeah - Its still my opinion that its the person.
Just as you carried one only for your protections - I would like to also, knowing they wouldn't be removed because of some ban.

cozumel

hahahah

Calinerti

From http://english.people.com.cn/200703/...08_355613.html

"The United States has the largest number of privately owned guns in the world. The unchecked spread of guns has caused incessant murders. A report released by the U.S. Justice Department in 2006 said that in 2005, 477,040 victims of violent crimes stated that they faced an offender with a firearm."

Its not just the actual MURDERS alone that are a problem.

Maddogg6

Sure and I already acknowledged this - but the side effect of loosing our ability to protect our selves is too great of a loss. 'Spur of the moment' deaths caused by blunt force trauma (and other ways) would spike in its place.

Maddogg6

The majority - I have little doubts are 'thug vs thug' situations - and imo is not as big of a loss to this nation as the loss of ability to protect our selves.
edit:
ex: I have never had a gun pulled on me, nor do I associate with people that have. Why? - I avoid potentially dangerous situations from the get go.
Granted plenty of people who, I refer to as 'innocent' have, and perhaps died - but those numbers are surely less than if we were to have been occupied - or unable to protect ourselves our neighbors.

Calinerti

In 1998 there were over 30,000 deaths from guns in the United States. I dont think there would be a "spike" which would rival that. I dont think for example, that 30,000 poeple would be beaten to death with baseball bats, or stabbed 36 times with a letter opener. I'm sure the "need" (?) to kill would remain, but a gun makes it too easy. An instant can cause death.

As far as the ability to protect yourself goes, in countries which dont allow their citizens to carry guns they aren't all walking around with baseball bats or machetes. They dont have to worry about a guy coming up and shooting them for their shoes. When I'm walking around Dublin or Belfast, if a guy wants my shoes he has to take them from me without a firearm.

Aleksandr Soljinetsin said "Freedom is the right to self censorship". Maybe the US isnt ready yet....................

Sandok

I prefer the goverment have some balls and refuse some basic rights for the benifits of all... No guns in CH works fine and nobody is complaing about lack of security.

We also aren't allowed by law to say the Halocuast didn't happen (if we do, jail time) but in the US, you can... Now that's a freedom I don't particularly miss either you see?

Guns never save people, they just kill...

Maddogg6

Like I said already - maybe the world would be a better place with out guns - but they *do* exist - you can't un-ring a bell. (you are reading my posts no?)

And seeing as they are out there - lets keep things as fair as possible - I want mine too - any ban will only take *mine* away - *not a thugs* (and possibly end up in the hands of thugs instead, as in; stolen after collection - it could happen)
As I have doubts thugs will go; 'ok heres my gun - I removed the serial #'s and my name is....... I live at.....' . Lets be real here - do ya think that would happen?

Is this really that difficult concept to grasp?

Maddogg6

I already addressed these points in my previous posts - so Im not gonna bore everyone with repeating it - as I cant come up with any new ways to make them clearer.

edit: all I can say - Im glad your not a voter in the US.

Asmoday