Falstaff

I woke up today, and knew that I was just tired of the whole war in IRAQ, tired of fighting the peace, tired of seeing good kids that I trained two years ago come back with stories and memories that they cant repeat and wounds that wont heal, Just fucking tired of the struggle that goes on daily between a regime in IRAQ that cant manage their own country, and the blood of brothers and sisters spilling and mixing with the blood of innocents on the streets of IRAQ.
I was touched by my ex-son-in-law and his struggle to describe the brutal instruments of war used to sweep human life regardless of age, sex and nationality off the face of the earth. Just cant get my mind around the thought of ever losing my brother who is on his third tour as an intelligence analyst at a different FOB everyday. Hearing mortors and RPG's land outside his tent. Seeing the faces of the people squeezed in the meat grinder, and the press that deliberately spread two messages everynight on television and the internet. What the hell happened to freedom...what the fuck happened to world now...where people launch missles into populated areas with their IPODS playing Briteny Spears in their cheap ass headphones, and lazers paint targets on building with women and children huddled behind walls that we penetrate with 120 mm cannon shells.
Which God is the right God to worship, which God tells us that mercy and kindness and respect and love is the center of our lives, our faith and our search for peace. Which God tells us to kill to destroy people of other faith. Which God makes us push the button, and prepare for the last battle the world will ever fight. Where the hell is sanctuary for people who dodge tanks, helicopters and landmines, children that smell the burning flesh, fuel and watch us all reap the whirlwind...what of them..
Have we mortgage our future already?
Where in the hell is the America that I grew up in, where is the world I watched on televison, the world I grew up in?
My own son tells me with regret he didnt want to go to join the Marines, or Army or Navy or Airforce..."when they envade America, that is when I will fight Dad" he said to me so long ago....
this morning I was grateful for that, grateful he is just working some shitty little job and making enough to keep his girlfriend and he alive every payday..
Then I wont have to watch him die on televsion like so many other mothers and fathers everyday...
God bless us all...we are going to need all the help we can get.
For all of you that can make a difference soon...
It isnt too early to decide who you are going to vote for...just dont forget to vote..

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Lelisevis

System Specs

Which America? The one with The first world war, the second world war, The Korean War, The Vietnam War, The Cold War, Desert Storm, The Afghan War, The war against terror, Iraqi Freedom.......hell we haven't even finished that one and we are deciding what to destroy next. I say we as in the context of humans as a race for Britains history looks no cleaner.

What are we but monkeys that have advanced beyond hitting each other with sticks and tearing other monkey troops apart with our hands.


It's funny how now things arent going our way and beneath the pile of shit wasnt a shiny gold coin our governments are all talking about pulling out. It's true when the going gets tough the tough get going, in this case we are going, going with our tails between our legs. Now we've upset the beehive and realised even the honeys not worth the stings we are just going to stand back and hope they can rebuild it. Trouble is it's rare that a bee will hold a grudge and come looking for you.


Whats the answer? I don't have a clue. All I know is that we are a dirty little stain on this planet and we'll keep on taking till nothing is left, no matter what the cost or who we destroy in the end. We are a race governed by greed.

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DH Reviews: If you like them, Digg them. You know it makes sense.

Dowaco

I guess the terrorists win.

I voted three: there have always been wars.

Wars are always unpopular once the reason for entering into one has faded into history, (which, in today's please-me-now society is like 6 months). The US has used its military power all over the globe and will continue to do so no matter who is president. Frankly, no one could get elected president if it was thought they would be afraid to commit troops.

The Iraq war is costing less than 1% of the GNP compared to 14% for Vietnam and 9% for the Korean war. Heck, its not even a real war. There is no economic hardship at home. Casualties from the start of the conflict to today are light. 3,200 volunteers in Iraq, compared to drafted 55,000 in Korea, 58,000 in Vietnam, 407,000 in WWII. so its not the staggering death toll that has people fed up. Although you would never know it the way the press plays up each individual death.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It will not matter who is president 21 months from now. The policies now begun must run their course. If the troops come home in three, five or seven years, then whoever is president will claim they kept their promise. There is no way a new president will recall all troops in a matter of a few months regardless of what they say to get your vote.

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The above is my opinion and in no way reflects the views of this website.

OmegaRED

System Specs

When the war in Iraq ends another will begin. Americans don't want to know the truth about why they start unnecessary wars and won't make the sacrifices needed to win a prolonged war.

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Lelisevis

System Specs

I agree totally. For those who fight fullcontact you'll know that as long as your punching out at others you can ignore the damage to yourself, I think it's about time America (and most countries to be honest) stopped concentrating on the wider world and turned it's attention to it's own wounds. Stop the homelessness, the starvation, the stagnant economy.

I watched Red nose day on TV the other night and was sick to the stomach, by the end of the night they'd raised a piffling £24m to combat starvation and suffering, I flicked over to News24 and saw plans for a £4 billion pound hotel and gambling complex.

Greed, extravagance and hatred. The pinnacle of this planets evolution.

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DH Reviews: If you like them, Digg them. You know it makes sense.

Falstaff

just so tired of this, so many good kids dead or maimed, returning home to crappy medical care, and a crappy system to assist them to civilian life.

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cozumel

System Specs

I'm part of that crappy system. I have approx 400 client appts every quarter (incl repeat appts) by about 120 individual clients. One third of those (about 40) are veterans and another 15 are refugees who were traumatised by witnessing extreme violence and/or have been victims of torture.

I fully support the troops and their families and admire their bravery and courage. I hate with a passion the politicians who send them to kill and to be killed, injured and irreperably damaged. (So I voted option 4)

Physical injuries can heal quickly, but psychological damage can take far longer . Example of damage: 99 US military personel committed suicide in Iraq since the invasion in 2003. A study of troops returning from the Iraq war, published by the American Journal of Psychiatry, showed that 16 percent of them met the criteria for post-traumatic stress disorder within one year of returning home. The disorder has been defined as a lingering anxiety or depression triggered by past extreme traumatic events, such as serving in combat.

The symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder can last for many years. Families and lives are destroyed by the ripples spreading out from the veteran leading to divorce, suicide, homocide, alcohol or substance misuse, other criminal activity and prison. This list is not exhaustive.

The US miltary is launching a website in July 2007 for any servicemember struggling with PTSD. Read here for more information.

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cozumel

System Specs

Apologies for inaccuracy in previous post which has now been edited.

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Matth

System Specs

Winning the peace is harder than winning the war, the place has all the makings of the "troubles" of Northern Ireland, or perhaps closer to the balkans - opposing groups united only by a brutal dictator.

The first Gulf war should have ended only with Saddam's trial and execution for war crimes, then there would have been no need for the second one based on nonexistent WMD and dodgy dossiers.

I'd say America was just seeking someone to answer for 9/11.

Anyway, we made this mess, now we are responsible for nurturing the Iraqui democracy until it can stand against enemies both outside and within.

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Mary had a little lamb,
Her father shot it dead
Now Mary takes her lamb to school,
Between two crusts of bread

SFOSOK

System Specs

my bud just came back from basic. He got kicked out 11 weeks in because he hurt his back and his parents sent in some psyc background.


He told me he saw 2 people die in basic, 1 blew his brains out right next to him at the rifle range and the other jumped off a building he was about to go into.

Its kinda got me thinkin bout the military and war. I can't make a decision though for this poll.

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*Warning* - Explicit Content Preceeding

Vikingod

System Specs

Lets face it, tha War is a freaking decable. Its probably the most poorly devised, authorized, and executed military action in the last 600 years. The whole thing is directly in the face of the constitution, and those key figures involved should probably be hung for treason. It has done irreparable harm to the image of the United States, and has squandered vast resources that were, and still are, need elsewhere in our depressed economy. Thats not even to mention the harm it has done to the image to those within the country who no longer trust their own government. (I'll save the rest of my thoughts for the book )

That said...

I honestly think that if we pull out now, without really cleaning up the mess we started, things will be much, much worse. Whether that means sending in additional troops, or throwing tons of money into training and supplying allied troops (which has a history of backfiring. read: Osama Bin Laden), I can't say. My gut tells me the right thing to do, is just as the "terrorist" don't want us to do. Set up hospitals, schools, business, and colleges. If we do it, that means they can't, and we win the heart of the people by feeding and educating them (Just like Hamas did in the south). Its honestly a route we should have done before we decided to blow everything up. I certainly won't pretend to have the answers, but I know the current direction is a huge mistake, and the idea that one can "export" democracy is really in the face of the idea of democracy. This war is just about the best example of that as I can think.

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Dowaco

So you are not counting Jimmy Carter's botched attempt to free the Iran Hostages or George Custer's incursion into Indian territory...

So hang the 3/4 of the Senate who voted 77-23 to authorize invasion.
This was done by the book. The president has the power to send troops anywhere without approval. The fact that he got it anyway says that most people wanted this war.

The ecomomy is not depressed, far from it. Those "vast resources" are a drop in the bucket (<1% of the GNP).
I don't give a rats ass about our image. What do you care if some guy in Paris or Copenhagen thinks about us? They think we are a bunch of uncultured, prudish cowboys anyway.

Who exactly is in that catagory? Anyone who trusts the government deserves what they get. Politicians come somewhere below used car salesmen and real estate agents in the trust factor.

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The above is my opinion and in no way reflects the views of this website.

Sandok

If you'd travel a bit, then you might see differently. Image is important, because if 6 billion people hate you, well that's not going to make your life or the relations with the world much easier is it?

This war imho, now is beyond repair. Leave and you'll look as if you're fleeing from a mess you can't fix.

Stay and you'll seem like you can't fix your own mess. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

cozumel

System Specs

I'm not going to get involved in the Dowaco/Sandok argument.

Regardless of whether US action is correct or not, the point of this thread is to debate whether the current rate of [Iraqi, US & allied) casualties are worth the price. The currency being quality of life for the average Iraqi citizen and number of casualties, including PTSD, of military personel and their families.

If the stated point of invasion and regime change was to improve the lives of the average Iraqi then we must ask how many total maximum casualties (of all nationalities) is a fair price?
The most conservative estimates of all fatalies stand at over 60,000. Many more have been injured physically or psychologically (most estimates are in the 100s of thousands). Before the war, Shias & Kurds were constantly at threat of imprisonment, torture and death at the hands of Saddam and his regime but everyone knew who you could or could not trust. Now there is a total lack of trust between neighbors: no-one know who is a friend and who is a foe. There is total breakdown in law and order, and society in general has broken down.

Conclusion:
I do not think things have improved at all. I do not think that regime change has made Iraq a better place for the people who live there or that the surrounding area is more stable. I do not think the world is safer place or that the risk of global terrorism has been reduced.

Therefore the war has not been, is not currently and will not be worth the sacrifice. The war should stop now and all foreign forces should be withdrawn immediately.

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Vikingod