Sandok

Wow you really don't like world politics do ya?

Maddogg6

No one ever said Sadam was a 'nice' guy, and yes - he needed to be removed - and HE HAS been, for how long now? - so WHY aren't the Iraqis happy and moving on????????????????????????

But, your right - it wasn't JUST about oil - its about billions in rebuilding contracts too (Cheyney/Haliburton needed a piece of the $multi-billion pie too) and strategic military location.

Have you ever wondered WHY we have military bases all around the world, yet NOT A SINGLE foreign military base in the US? -
did you ever wonder how this is viewed by the world? - 'protectors' of freedom - or capitolistic pigs who kill for profit, - ask the 60K-600K dead (since we invaded Iraq) Iraqis families/survivors.

But alas - the 9/11 perpetrator - Osama - IS STILL ON THE LOOSE. The worlds most technologically advanced military power cant find a single civilian, but we could find Sadam hidden in some cramped bunker?? doesn't this make you ask 'how is this possible?'.. ??

Is our military THAT incompetent? I think not, and I put responsibility on their superiors anyway.

Why was focus removed from Osama? - And, only recently was Afghanistan brought back into media focus. But NOT Osama.

Are we not getting the cooperation of our allies? - how come?

Why haven't you asked why?

I see it like this:
'Sure, we'll remove a tyrant leader for ya, but it'll cost ya' and Iraq isn't known for anything but oil and strategic military location / presence.
Strategy for what, oh crap, whats next - oh yeah - Iran!!!

Yup, and... remember those ridiculous 'artist renditions' of mobile bio-labs - I can't believe ANYONE actually took those serious as 'proof' of ANYTHING. When we have all those satellites, stealth recon crafts, highly skilled rangers - etc etc - instead we get 'drawings' *not actual pictures*??

ronnn

Back to Obama - can he win? He gets good press in Canada, but so does Bill Clinton.

SFOSOK

When it hinders military efficiency because it wants the world to play nice therefore killing more people than necessary, then yes of course.

My stand on that is if military action is determined necessary then it should not be hindered in any way in order to save the most amount of lives possible.

More steps and precautions should be taken and all things considered before the use of force.



Edit: About him, I don't think he will win and if he or Clinton does then they will probably be shot. He looks like the best of all of them but I don't think he would make it to office.

Also, Canada's opinion on the US and its politicians doesn't mean too much.

__________________
*Warning* - Explicit Content Preceeding

Maddogg6

Alot can happen between now and elections..
edit: in othr words - nows NOT the time to decide a leader, but to learn as much as possible about the ones declaring they are running. Elections are the time to choose.

But, the reality IS, world politics DO affect military operations, so, we should interpret your post as 'you don't like reality'.. ???

cozumel

You've stumbled back onto the main policy problem in the Middle East - lack of consistency.

Israel successfully and bravely fought off an attack by allied arab forces and went on to occupy a good deal of sovereign foreign territory which they subsequently and unilaterally annexed. There have been many UN resolutions passed requiring Israel to return to pre-1967 borders. All have been flouted and Israel continued its illegal occupation.

To keep policicy consistent; Does that mean that that UN does "not have the backbone to back up its demands" and should the US have "shouldered most of the load".

To say that the occupation is acceptable on military grounds to protect Israeli borders is not a valid argument for annexation. I accept that a state of war still technically exists. But Israel should accept the need fo a declaration of peace and the unconditional right of Israel to exist as pre-conditions for the withdrawal of their troops and all claims to foreign sovereign territory. Unfortunately Israel does not believe in full withdrawal but wants to make its (illegal) annexation permanent in many areas.

This whole situation makes a mockery of International Law and is a cause of great animosity (understatement) between arab nations and the US or West in general. 'Double Standards' is a phrase that pops into mind.

Edit: I think that any global citizen has the right to comment on their preferences for President in US. As the major global Superpower, US policy directly effects the lives of every single person around the world (especially in the Middle East!! LOL)

__________________

Pompey

I feel I should say something in defence of the UN.

Whenever something with teeth gets proposed Russia, China or the US veto's it.

__________________
One's inability to find an answer to a question does not imply that the question has no answer.

Sandok

I dunno about that mate... Saddam gased how many of his own people? 1000? 2000? And USA has killed how many civilians (by accident and via clashes). 35000? 65000? And how many dead US soliders before the invasion? 0... And after? Over 3000... Maybe listening to the world isn't such a bad idea sometimes.

And you know, saying that Canada's opinion doesn't matter just makes you guys seem worse than you really are. Hell the entire world's opinion doesn't matter, so who cares? I mean, the Swiss hate Americans but that don't matter... It's not good to be hated world wide... I think.

Maddogg6

This American agrees... it can ONLY lead to a world war of - the US vs the world - no allies is NEVER a good thing IMO. And I would be mad as hell to see that happen.

SFOSOK

Their opinion matters just not on our politicians. At least not enough to make a difference to the people actually voting. Your taking my words out of context (again) and dumbing me down into your version of an "American".



Also I'm not saying I do not like reality just world politics are ineffecient. I don't like the way the world as a whole handles situations. More people die because politicians would rather bicker than unite during a time of war.

If the world could have united and the millitary allowed unhindered by world policy (Once the decision is made to go to war) I am sure far less civilians, US soldiers, and even Iraqi forces would have died. I do believe the decision to go to war should be made by world type council when they are prepared to actually fight for their actions instead of striving for peace without war (which kills more innocent people most of the time).


I think the UN as well as the rest of the world better start backing up their words with actions or they will soon be ignored completely(not just by the US but by their own people).


Edit: I guess the reason the US can be hated world wide and still be a superpower has to do with every nation in the world simply talking without action to correct any abuse of power.

They will continue to hate the US (really no matter what we do at this point) but will do absolutely nothing about it.

You cannot avoid conflict all together. The lesser of two evils would be to meet in on your terms.

__________________
*Warning* - Explicit Content Preceeding

Maddogg6

Well, it still is a reality... Like; I don't care for waiting in lines, but reality says I must, I see it as the same 'stumbling block' for politicians when dealing with foreign affairs and a world economy.
Part 1 is true.. part 2 tho... COMPRIMISE is the only thing that can work for everyone - that means us too - if we 'care' about foriegn policy and world economy.

SFOSOK

Assuming you cannot fix the problem or that there is no problem destroys any chance for improvement or progress.


Compromise does not work (nor should be accepted) with extremists or those who kill innocent civilians to get their point.

to the second part
If this is true then the US is a child but the world is a really shitty parent.

__________________
*Warning* - Explicit Content Preceeding

Sandok

What? How am I taking you out of context? You said that the Candian opinion doesn't matter much and since the US is a democracy if I recall well, then the general population (you guys) choose your leaders no? And I'm sorry, I have to generalize a bit, I can't talk about each and every little exception you know.

Okay so you avoided my thingy about the world avoiding the start of the war but that's too late anyways now... So what you are saying if I read well is that you want the world NOW to stop bickering and aid the US in the war they are fighting?

But you must understand that brute force for the Iraq war has helped in no way? I dunno but all the nukes and Apaches in the world won't help the situation in Iraq now... And the world as you put it doesn't need to share the bloodshed of the US army. You guys are in deep trouble there and I don't see why more countries would join in... Hell, Spain helped and the madrid bombings... UK helped and the subway bombings... Tis not great you know?

And the UN was setup by the US but you're the first ones to ignore it... Europeans aknowledge it and only work by it because that's the way it was meant to be. No need to do action when none is required. It hasn't lost the respect of anyone cept the US unfortunately.

I don't get what you meant by the hated world wide and action part. If the world would act against abuse of power that means we'd have to disarm war mongerer bush? I don't really see what you are trying to say (not very clear imho).

The world hates the US yes, but what you want them to do about it? Go to America and change the goverment or the ideology in your country? I fail to see the possibilities... The US was loved just ten years ago you know... And you still had wars back then. Times have changed and the US has become sorta paranoid and many countries find you guys anti islamic in your wars (mostly islamic countries lol) and Europe wants no part of what you do.

Come over to CH for example and just talk with people, I dunno, that might help.

Dowaco

First, let me say that none of the following is directed at an individual on these forums. Its about the countries you all may live in.

Opinion from outside the US on who should be president is interesting but since they have no vote it really is meaningless.
The President changes every four to eight years anyway so nothing is permanent.

There are a lot of men still alive in the US who fought in WWII who wonder why France is not an ally and truly believe that all of Europe would be speaking German today if not for them. Like the Godfather said. "someday I will ask you for a favor"
It stings a little when the US has said. "We have been attacked, please help us defeat our mutual enemy" and everyone but the UK turns away. When the US goes it alone they get hated by our supposed allies. Why hatred? I would think embarrassment or guilt would be more appropriate.

Really, what has the US done besides overturn a brutal dictatorship? What does the world want from us after leaving us to work out things for ourselves? You should be relieved that Americans are dying instead of you and feel grateful that we are doing something that needed doing that your government can't/won't do.

I think the reason why the US is hated is because Bush gave everyone a chance to participate in the military action and then refused to share in the fruits of rebuilding (if any) unless you were a participant. Seems fair to me.


How does that defend the UN? If that always happens then it is a flawed system.

Back OT:
I am more worried about what Obama or Hillary will do on domestic issues like healthcare than I am about Iraq. Whatever gets said in this election about bringing home the troops will be rhetoric only. Whoever is president will have to continue to honor commitments made and allow this mess to run its course. There is no quick fix.

__________________
The above is my opinion and in no way reflects the views of this website.

SFOSOK

My opinion about the world having a problem with the US has to do with how I view things as a whole. If you have a problem with something you fix it, if it negatively affects you then you fix it, if a country invades another and terrorism rises then you fix it. Complaining does not fix it.


Everyone wants peace but no one wants to do what it takes to get peace. While I do not aggree with various military actions by the US I do enjoy that they are one of the few countries in the world that is not only prepared to act but does so.


I would expect the major of countries of the world to unite and say the US has no place to do this or that without their permission (invasion of other countries) unless if the national security is breached. I'm pretty sure the US would not fight the whole world or at least its leading nations as we have no dictatorship and most people here would not want a world war.


Can you tell me how complaining about what the US does helps your current situation?

__________________
*Warning* - Explicit Content Preceeding