Global Warming Man Made?

Zelig

Really? Care to enlighten me as to how you'd go about building a solar power generating plant without access to petroleum products?

caqde

Don't get caught up in the BS coming from your lovely and biased oil companies saying that it's impossible to make fossil fuels.

Here is a lovely article about companies that turn trash into other things like those fossil fuels your talking about. . It may require energy but you can always use hydro,wind, or solar for that.

http://www.g4tv.com/techtvvault/feat...h_Zappers.html

But as far as this threads topic is concerned I will say that I agree that something bad will happen if the current trend of things continues. Right now I am doing as much as I can to get the people around me to use Efficient computers, cars, light bulbs, etc. Once they realize the money saved by using such things they usually end changing their ways. Of course not all people are so willing .

Neshi

besides... solar power is in its early feet, as the effectivity is like 10-20%...

and doenst it cost more energy to 'zap' the trash, then it brings back?

DudeBoyz

The chemicals and such used in making solar panels negate any potential energy saving benefit, I have read.

Sandok

Na, we've reached 40%...

http://www.energy.gov/news/4503.htm

Zelig

Assuming you're talking about converting trash into materials traditionally derived from extracted oil, then yes, it does take energy to do so.

Oil serves both as an energy source and as an energy transport, while most alternatives serve only an energy source (nuclear, solar, wind, hydro) or a transporter (hydrogen, ethanol, liquid nitrogen, lithium).

That's a myth, some forms of solar energy can have a net energy gain in under a year of operation.

Falstaff

the more hydrocarbons and other gases we release or convert to more dangerous substances will deplete the ozone, accumulate in our atmosphere and the expodential decrease in the planets capability to filter the toxins we create will ensure that within our lifetimes an event will raise world attention to its highest level, even the Chinese and peoples of Eurasia will suffer. Take it from a person that comes from a country that produces 25% of the worlds pollution, it will happen. We have created a global monster and we cannot reverse its course.

DudeBoyz

How can you simply dismiss it as a myth? Are you actually involved in the manufacture of solar panels and have facts and data to back it up?

Zelig

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog1/ind...9&js_enabled=0
http://jupiter.clarion.edu/~jpearce/.../netenergy.pdf

I had more of a post typed up, but closed the tab by accident.

Here are a couple links, they've got their own sources, the second is a pdf document.

cozumel

When this is a global issue how come every political debate in this forum kinda ends in the US vs the rest of the world?

Anyhow - just wanted to put stick my oar in...

Cars and transport in general (although they create significant amounts of CO2 are not a major polluter (relatively). Industry and its demands for cheap fossil fuels is the big problem. Jet engines and rockets also contribute far more than cars & trucks.


There are many number of major polluting countries around the world (nearly all developed countries) who have not officially recognised that the increase of CO2s in the atmosphere of the last hundred years or so has an impact on the climate. These same countries refuse to legislate a reduction in industrial emmisions. The argument is 'it costs too much and would harm our economic growth'.

When considering the overall monetary wealth in the world the value in making massive investments in alternative power such as solar, wind, waves etc would be extremely cost effective in the long term. This investment needs to donated to developing countries to enable them to avoid the same mistakes that we did. Hell, we could even donate free life-saving drugs as part of the deal.

Oh, I do love being a wishy-washy so-called namby-pamby-flip-flop liberal. (Had to get that in before anyone else)

All I know is that when I was kid growing up in the UK there used to be a skiing season every year in Scotland but it is too warm now and just not possible. I remember being able to play on the frozen reservoir near my home in London. The temperature in London now NEVER stays sub-zero during the daytime. These changes have happened over such a short time. This is not what happens during natural climate change which occurs far more gradually and over a loger period of time.

Just to sum up - in case I wasn't clear - Climate change is a reality and is mostly the result of poor power mangement by everone who lives in the developed world. Only the will of people like you and I pressurising the politicians will change anything..

BWX

It's so hot!!

DudeBoyz

People seem to really enjoy hating on the US. I don't know what motivates them so strongly, but all the foreign media I watch, from Canada to Britain to Mexico and others, consistently have Anti-US stories running. Blaming us for the results of Tsunami's, chastizing us for "flaunting our wealth", pushing our "Decadent Western Lifestyle" and undermining international morality, faulting us for not stoping genocide in African countries - it goes on and on and on.

When something goes wrong and they need someone to help them, sure, they'll call us up and ask, but when they don't need us, they like to treat us like the disfigured red-headed step child they send down to the basement and only talk about with angry whispers...

I didn't get to choose where I was born, but I have learned to really appreciate much that my country offers and cannot imagine sacrificing the freedoms that we have by moving to another country. Warts & All, this is my home and I'm grateful to be living here.

Sandok

Man what channels you watch, Hippie fest? Europe dislikes the US, but not becuase you have a lot of "wealth" (because honestly, you're country isn't way cleaner or better managed than mine by a long shot ), your western lifestyle is put to shame by middle eastern princes who outdo you in every way. As for your international morality, well many countries would like that you stepped OUT of people's problems now

But the fact that you don't understand why the world dislikes the US now? Now's that's just golden It's your foreign policy, your general attitude "we are the world" and "we do what we want" things that people dislike.

Last time we called you was for WW2. After that, we've never wanted or needed your help... You guys make more problems than you solve Most countries, if you notice don't actually ask america for anything anymore...

Dude, I've lived in three different countries: Switzerland (current), India, America. Out of the three, the freedoms are the same everywhere... In fact, the country with the most freedom is India, where you can do what you want how you want. All these countries are pure democracies, so they have a vaguely same constituation and same freedoms. Honestly, what do you think Europeans can't do that american's can?

PS: We are trailing off topic...

cozumel

Back to topic.

For example, there's a bus depot in London (Vauxhall Interchange) that gets 30% of its power from solar panels, and that's in a country where its often cloudy and the sun is weak. And the CIS Tower in Manchester is clad on three sides with solar tiles generating 180,000 KWh electricity every year.

I also have a friend and his wife (a bit of flower power sort of couple) who actually sell electricity back to the electric company as they have a wind turbine and solar panels for their home!!! It was expensive to install but the government grants meant that I think they only had to pay for about a third of the total capital cost for parts and installation.

Sandok

Yeah the goverment has to take iniatives, that's for sure. Here in Switzerland, 60% of the power is hydroelectric and another 30% is nuclear. The remaning is bought from other countries and produced by windfarms. Tis a very green country

And while it may be expensive in the short term, this sort of thinking is almost always cheaper in the long term

cozumel

But it needs every country in the world to do it - including Australia, China, USA, Russia etc. And all the rich countries need to fund the development of cleaner and renewable energy in poorer countries that are or will be going through the industrial revolution.

And the world lived happily ever after and they wore flowers in their hair.....

Pompey

Sandok: Europe is a very different place from Nth America and Australasia. Europe is more densely populated and many people live in cramped terrace houses and apartment blocks. This makes mass-transit more economical. In Nth America and Australasia many people live in low-density sprawling suburbs which means that mass-transit systems are far less viable. Thats something that cannot be easily changed because it would require bulldozing most of our urban areas and starting from scratch.

And the size of the population is a problem. Its all greenhouse gasses that are contributing to climate change, not just CO2. Larger populations require more food for example, thereby increasing emmisions from the agricultural sector (especially methane).

Sandok

Methane doesn't last half as long as CO2 in the air. But I agree, CO2 isn't the worse, though it is the easiest to get rid of quickly imho.

As for the suburb thingy, I live in the middle of nowhere in CH, far from the major cities surrounded by methane farting cows and yet, I still have a bus every 40 minutes till midnight. Diesel or electric ones But yeah, it can't easily be done in some countries.

However, bulldozing urban areas, I disagree with. In fact, personally i find american, canadian and australian cities way easier to install with mass transit systems because you guys usually have urban areas based on a "grid" system. I mean, my closest city is a tiny european typical kind of place, meaning tons of tiny roads, lotsa uphills and downhilles, etc. Yet, it's feasible. Nothing is impossible, just expensive or cheap and it's about time we start using the expensive sollutions... They'll make the world a better place in the long run imho.

caqde

From Zelig:
Well not really it depends on the company though I know one in particular is actually making the stuff we extract from Earth from trash . But the efficiency is ~83% from what I have read so in essence if you think about it when you have to use energy to pull up the oil it might be more efficient than mining for it.. But then again I am not sure. I know the company that is doing this put many gallons of Diesel Fuel on the market.

The city I live in Pheonix is putting in a Light Rail system right now. Hopefully it will be done soon. I use the bus system here to get around right now as I don't have a car. Although I wish I had a vehicle though there are some things you can't do by bus.... (Hauling large objects, large quantity of objects)...... But I would not be getting these large gas hogging vehicles though.. I'd rather rent one for a day when I do need it.

Pompey

And how full are those busses?
In my city we have busses and some really run-down trains (the trains only connect a single grand station on he outskirts of the CBD with some of the outer suburbs) and they are jam-packed during peak hours but the rest of the time they are virtually empty. And of course a giant buss hauling just 2 people (the driver and a passenger) aint exactly great for the environment.
And im very surprised to hear that a bus to the middle of nowhere runs every 40min, my local buses run every 30.
But the population isnt often dense enough. Auckland (which contains over 25% of the population) for example has 1/7th the population of London yet covers a much larger land area. A lower density means higher building and operational costs reducing the feasibility. Its not impossible, but mass transportation only works here with very generous subsidies. One of the main reasons the rail system we have in wellington is feasible is because my part is built in a valley, so a rail line can just run through the middle of it. Christchurch has nothing more than busses because the shape and density of the city makes anything more than a limited bus service pretty much unworkable. We would need to re-develop our urban areas into denser forms of housing to justify the expense.
We have some mass transport, where the population justifies the expense.

cozumel

I don't believe that cars & buses are the biggest polluters. Industry, powered by fossil fuels is a far bigger problem.

caqde

Maybe but understand there is one fossil fuel factory for how many cars/buses. The factory may push out more than the car but then again there are many cars to make up for that difference, but then again there is a lot of dependencies that make up how much pollution each makes (age,efficiency, size etc...).

This pollution problem would be better if people actually took the time to take the little steps that they can to reduce power consumption, but all we can do is try debating here isn't likely to accomplish much unless it comes out that some of us actually takes steps to change the minds of those we associate with to help in this matter.

ronnn