Pick-A-Prez

~~bluelight~~ · Apr 17, 2003, 06:05 AM

Well ...Neon posted an image of Chirac meeting Saddam Hussein back in the eighties.....as some sort of ....proof......of how extrememly bad .rotten and generally nazilike the French are......

Well the problem is that i have posted an image of your current defense minister Rumsfeld doing exactly the same thing......being nice to the butcher......in the eighties.....while visiting to sell arms to fight the Iranians.

That image is the one i threatened to post again.I post it every once in a while i hear Americans post garbage about Europe having less moral that Usa when it comes to this.

I thought you had seen it.

Ill look it up again...

Bluelight

~~bluelight~~ · Apr 17, 2003, 06:39 AM

http://arizona.indymedia.org/news/2002/12/6003.php

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm

http://www.indybay.org/news/2003/03/1581494.php

Check these...then we can discuss why your moral is on´a higher level that Europes..

Bluelight

~~bluelight~~ · Apr 17, 2003, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff

What documents point toward imperialism, forgive me, but can you clarify...thanx

Ok....the official one

http://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/nss.html

Australian interpretation...although it is obviously subjective it arises questions...aboy the official version...'

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...055033082.html

The official versaion is difficult to read unless one is used to this type of documents but everybody that i have read that has written about this document says it is a MAJOR change in Us foreign policy where US takes itself te right to do a lot of things no other nation has previously done...for a long time...(at least not openly.

This applys to both rightwing and left wing interpreters.

THis document was according to an American documentary i saw proposed in almost the exact same form to Bush SR by Wolfwitz more that ten years ago but.....was then rejected as to agressive.......

There is a part in this document that says some thing like.....American lifestyle is good for all peole on the earth and we plan to distribute it...

Well...im waiting for the chinese to start distributing chinese lifestyle to Taiwan to begin with......

Bluelight

Falstaff · Apr 17, 2003, 07:41 AM

I am very cynical of the interpretations of the Australians, but more skeptical of the validity of the white house website..it's not bad, but this is all desktop policy, meaning-that it is as you say the "official spin" on things. I would agree, it may not accruately reflect the direction or agenda on any given day, it is just the official template...well, gonna check it all out anyway, I just get lost in the rhetoric, I actually go to the Fox News site to get my news, but I bookmarked it anyway...thanx blue..

BWX · Apr 17, 2003, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
Well ...Neon posted an image of Chirac meeting Saddam Hussein back in the eighties.....as some sort of ....proof......of how extrememly bad .rotten and generally nazilike the French are......

Oh, that picture of Rumsfeld looks like it was taken 30 years ago too- what is your point? And when did NEON post anything on this thread? What are you smokin' over there man? lol--

~~bluelight~~ · Apr 17, 2003, 01:31 PM

And moral does not know age?If Rumsfeld sold weapons twenty ytears ago which were part of killing three million people in a war supported by you then you feel that is ok??

But it is not ok for Chirac to do similar things?

Is it ok to accuse Chirac of being a Nazi for doiung exactly the same thing as Rumsfeld??

No he didnt post it in this thread but he ´has posted stuff about how terrible the french are including images that claim the french to be nazis..

Well nobody would get the idea of picturing Rumsfeld as a Nazi...for doing ...exactly thwe same thing as Chirac....why?

And..by the way...the image of Chirac.....is at least 20 years old...

You have made the french chew.....what they did 20 years ago.......

But Rumsfeld and several of the current gov..in Usa...did the same.....and they are heroes in some of you peoples eyes.......

And dont come with..."Well they didnt know or similar.......The image of Rumsfeld was taken three years after the nervegas massacre in Halabja.

Strange...utterly strange...even sick...id say...

(Not you...but the idea of Rumsfeld and buddies as somekind of good guys...appaling....)

Bluelight

BWX · Apr 17, 2003, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
And moral does not know age?If Rumsfeld sold weapons twenty ytears ago which were part of killing three million people in a war supported by you then you feel that is ok?? But it is not ok for Chirac to do similar things? Is it ok to accuse Chirac of being a Nazi for doiung exactly the same thing as Rumsfeld?? No he didnt post it in this thread but he ´has posted stuff about how terrible the french are including images that claim the french to be nazis. Well nobody would get the idea of picturing Rumsfeld as a Nazi...for doing ...exactly thwe same thing as Chirac....why? And..by the way...the image of Chirac.....is at least 20 years old... You have made the french chew.....what they did 20 years ago....... But Rumsfeld and several of the current gov..in Usa...did the same.....and they are heroes in some of you peoples eyes....... And dont come with..."Well they didnt know or similar.......The image of Rumsfeld was taken three years after the nervegas massacre in Halabja. Strange...utterly strange...even sick...id say... (Not you...but the idea of Rumsfeld and buddies as somekind of good guys...appaling....) Your military doctrine has always been driven by imperialism.You have always done what you could militarily and economically to cointrol South and mid America, Your presence in different parts (especially the mideast) of the world economically and militarily also speaks the truth about that. Thats ...why...empire I actually beleieve4 that your current government ...wants to rule the world. Yes i do. Why?Because they have written documents that says so and because they choose to act accordingly to these documents.

Yeah, but Chiroc is STILL I REPEAT - STILL supports Saddam and is trying to block the US's good intentions in Iraq and the world in general!! I wouldn't doubt it if Saddam is in France right now- IF he isn't I bet he would like to be, he has lot's of friends there-

Debating with you bluelight is like debating with a tape recorder or a broken record - I just keep hearing the same exact things, I wonder if you even read any of our responses? And Another thing, why ust you QUADRUPLE SPACE all your posts? Is there a reason for this? Just wondering

To your unrelenting bashing of Rumsfeld (and the US in general) and about that old WORN OUT picture, I would direct you to READ all of this, as you have OBVIOUSLY IGNORED it or misunderstood it. Or maybe you just refuse to acknowledge anything or any fact the support the idea that the US is a doing ANY good in this world as you obviously are hoplessly PRO-Islamic fundamentalism and ANTI-US at all cost and in spite of ALL PROOF that you see or hear. Why don't you respond to this?? I will post it again for you as you must not have seen it before....

"Everyone makes such a big deal about that (old Rumsfeld picture)-- I say SO WHAT!
He was the lesser of two evils at the time- We did what we had to do- End of story-- (I hear bluelight's brain cogs spinning thinking up a way to bash the us for something that happend a decade ago)"

"HA!!!! Even though everyone already knew what buddies Chiroc and Saddam were and choose to dismiss it if it doesn't serve thier cause."

"Exactly. If we hadn't supported Iraq then, Iran probably would have beat them. Tell me that the spread of Islamic fundamentalism is a good thing."

"Besides, the US was hardly alone in its support of Iraq (nor was our aid exclusive to Iraq). Even Kuwait supported Iraq."

~~bluelight~~ · Apr 17, 2003, 03:06 PM

Good bye BWX

I dont like you.

I dont like the way you replys always fall into personal accusations.

You are not capable of discussing any issue without making personal insults or similar....so ill leave you to continue that with those that are amused preferably in the flame zone.

I also suggest you dont reply to this post with further personal accusations added to the ones above.

if so ill not just igore you but also report it.

I have had fully enough of you.

And....Rumsfeld is evil.

Bluelight

Alistair · Apr 17, 2003, 03:14 PM

about Gore.... having served in the army near the last elections I can tell you we would have a serious gap in the military command structure at the present had he won. I overheard quite a number of officers speak of turning in their resignations had he been elected. They did not want another 4-8 years of being handled the way Clinton handled them everytime another scandal of his came public....

BWX · Apr 17, 2003, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
Good bye BWX

I dont like you.

I dont like the way you replys always fall into personal accusations.

You are not capable of discussing any issue without making personal insults or similar....so ill leave you to continue that with those that are amused preferably in the flame zone.

I also suggest you dont reply to this post with further personal accusations added to the ones above.

if so ill not just igore you but also report it.

I have had fully enough of you.

And....Rumsfeld is evil.

Bluelight

Just trying to get a point across- you accuse people (like Rumsfeld) of being evil- I never said anything like that about you. I just think you are ignoring the obvious points made by people who know what they are talking about. I get tired of hearing the same propaganda from you too- that is why I have to balance it out with the other point of view and question why you say these things. I didn't insult you, I do recall you insulting my country and my government on many occasions and I don't say anything about it.

You told me I was on your ignore list anyway.... I ignore SH4President - 'SaddamHussien4President'- because of his insults to my country. Maybe I should do the same to you.

BWX · Apr 17, 2003, 03:21 PM

Who called the French Nazi's anyway? where did that come from?

BWX · Apr 17, 2003, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alistair
about Gore.... having served in the army near the last elections I can tell you we would have a serious gap in the military command structure at the present had he won. I overheard quite a number of officers speak of turning in their resignations had he been elected. They did not want another 4-8 years of being handled the way Clinton handled them everytime another scandal of his came public....

Clinton didn't even know how to properly salute. That alone made a lot of military people angry, as it should.

BWX · Apr 17, 2003, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight

I dont like you.

And....Rumsfeld is evil.

Bluelight

Göran Persson is a cowardly evil murdering dictator who supports terrorism and isn't even elected by the people of his own country..

It's OK to bash the US right? I guess I can say things like this without any proof too. It isn't any worse than what I have heard from MANY people about my president and government.

BWX · Apr 17, 2003, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bluelight
Good bye BWX

I dont like you.

I dont like the way you replys always fall into personal accusations.

You are not capable of discussing any issue without making personal insults or similar....so ill leave you to continue that with those that are amused preferably in the flame zone.

I also suggest you dont reply to this post with further personal accusations added to the ones above.

if so ill not just igore you but also report it.

I have had fully enough of you.

And....Rumsfeld is evil.

Bluelight

Ok, hear are some tactics that I see here:

IGNORE THE ANSWER:
In online discussions groups, the tactic is to utterly ignore an answer that your opponent has given to one of your challenges, especially if their answer is obviously correct and proves you wrong. Continue with your point and even restate the challenge itself, accusing the person of not having an answer at all.
Repeat this often, forcing him to explain the same point over and over and OVER ... until he simply hits a boiling point. The trick here (at least with public e-mail lists or forums) is to remember that other people are watching this, but are not necessarily keeping up with the details. You have to take the chance that they have not seen, or do not particularly remember, his original responses to the question. Then, when he finally explodes, he has totally discredited himself. After all, if he were right, he would just answer your question and not throw a little tantrum over it.

The only way to fail at this maneuver is if your opponent saved the original response, and cuts and pastes it. Then you have to resort to another tactic to get out of that one. But even this "proof" can be ignored, and the process repeated endlessly.

PRETEND AD HOMINEM:
Make it seem as if the other person is attacking you rather than making a simple point or correction, if you suspect that the other party is right. Rather than staying on the subject, begin to act hurt - as if you have been viciously attacked as a human being - rather than admit you are wrong, or could do better, etc. in some particular. That will teach them to keep quiet about such things in the future, no? Also known as the ESCALATION PLOY.

I am not attacking you- I am trying to get answers from you from the responses I indicated.

Alistair · Apr 17, 2003, 04:01 PM

no offense BWX while I understand why you are doing this you may want to calm down and stop making so many consecutive posts. Just a friendly suggestion. And just FYI I agree with you on much if not most of what you've said..

BWX · Apr 17, 2003, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alistair
no offense BWX while I understand why you are doing this you may want to calm down and stop making so many consecutive posts. Just a friendly suggestion. And just FYI I agree with you on much if not most of what you've said..

Yeah, I know- I would do better to stay out of the political debate forum, but sometimes I see such negativity toward the US by certain people..... when we die for the freedom of people we don't even know- makes me ill sometimes.

No offense taken--

~~SH4President~~ · Apr 17, 2003, 04:20 PM

Alistair · Apr 17, 2003, 04:23 PM

I know what you mean MWX but all it takes to make me forget about such negative people is watching the pro-war rallies/support-our-troops rallies and I forget all about them... The celebrations where they have been held in Iraq also make me feel better.

Quote:

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

-- John Stuart Mill

Just remember this quote

BWX · Apr 17, 2003, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Alistair
I know what you mean MWX but all it takes to make me forget about such negative people is watching the pro-war rallies/support-our-troops rallies and I forget all about them... The celebrations where they have been held in Iraq also make me feel better.

-- John Stuart Mill

Just remember this quote

Can't argue with that--

*PS- to SH4President-- I still can't hear you and don't think it is worth hearing you. You are the only person on my ignore list, and will stay there until you eventually go away like Saddam has. know I'll be around much longer than you.

Falstaff · Apr 17, 2003, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Alistair- about Gore.... having served in the army near the last elections I can tell you we would have a serious gap in the military command structure at the present had he won. I overheard quite a number of officers speak of turning in their resignations had he been elected. They did not want another 4-8 years of being handled the way Clinton handled them everytime another scandal of his came public....

Agreed, Gore would have been popularly elected, no doubt, but effective? Hell no...He would have been impeached within some time, and he would not have passed the 9/11 test...

Quote:

Alistair- no offense BWX while I understand why you are doing this you may want to calm down and stop making so many consecutive posts. Just a friendly suggestion. And just FYI I agree with you on much if not most of what you've said..

Agreed, he has already alienated a worthy debater, A european with a balanced and if unprovoked perspective and a worthy opponent..

Quote:

BWX-Yeah, I know- I would do better to stay out of the political debate forum, but sometimes I see such negativity toward the US by certain people..... when we die for the freedom of people we don't even know- makes me ill sometimes.

Walk a mile in someone elses shoes, the greatest value of debate is learning that the whole f**king world does not revolve around the U.S. Embrace the principles of the constitution and apply them to a forum where can express themselves..or just open minded, you can disagree without insulting anyone...or maybe not..

The world is getting alot smaller, the mere fact that we can banter or debate or disagree within the tiny little world called DH, and express ourselves is a milestone in the freedoms that one day everyone will be able to enjoy...

BWX · Apr 17, 2003, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff

The world is getting alot smaller, the mere fact that we can banter or debate or disagree within the tiny little world called DH, and express ourselves is a milestone in the freedoms that one day everyone will be able to enjoy...

Something I have said MANY times while debating with bluelight!!