To Hell with the French Foreign minister!

Falstaff

I am so sick of the dialogue the French representative is attempting to perpetuate. It is clearly obvious that we will manage to do what we need to do in IRAQ without the French. A country that consistently loses wars, money and international prestige every single time that the government attempts to form some kind of real political posture. It is in the nature of the French government to selfishly cling to the outstanding loans to the IRAQI government, doubtless, the wouldn't see a Euro after the regime in IRAQ is replaced by a democratic political machine.
No, I think the French are hiding something, whatever it is, the implications go further than the Exocet missles they sold the Hussien regime, and the Etentard aircraft that launched those missles at the USS STARK, so many years ago. The French are dirty, really dirty, and they have their fingers, legs and every other vital portion of their political anatomy inserted in the Hussien regime. What the heck are the French afraid of? I believe that they are not afraid of being hypocrates, because they do it so well, perhaps this one time, and only time, they don't want to be rescued from a war that surely will make their efforts as meaningful as cow flatulence. The French are desperately trying to redeem themselves in the interntational community. The French government better play another card in this poker game. It is a documented fact that the French people are ambivelent about this matter. What ever happens, they will continue to pay terrible prices for diesel, food and imported goods. They could really give a damn who wins. I say "Hail to the chief", President Bush has the power, the integrity, and the will to persecute Saddam Hussien and the Al Guida until the whole desperate and sticky matter is done.....so who really needs the French... and to hell with the French Foriegn minister!!

ToshiroOC

I'm curious - what exactly do you think the French are hoping for, in asking for peace?

JavaFox

The status quo.

UberLord

Well, at a totally wild guess I'd say that they're asking for peace.

Now if America was the peace loving country that it proclaims to be then why does it want war so damn much?

raid517

Well really the American right and the French political establishment have a lot in common. The French believe that Europe should spend much more on defence. So do many Americans. The French believe that Europeans have been too dependant on the US in many other areas. So do many Americans. The French are in favour of doing everything they can to break this dependence and to make Europe more self reliant. I have heard many Americans expressing this desire too. The only problem is that the US see Europe as a counterbalance to the power and influence of the USA in the world. Americans don't like this idea at all. So how do you work that one out? As soon as a European country begins to act in an dependant way and suggests to everyone that they should do everything the US has told them they should do, the US objects tells them they are wrong, and demonises them for their efforts. Mmm.. Having said that... there does seem to be a pattern here...

What an odd world we all live in.

Q

ToshiroOC

Weeeeellll... I was more curious about what fallang_jeff thought about the intentions of France with regards to asking for Peace... I have my own personal opinions, which include France wanting peace instead of war like civilized folks...

raid517

No sadly I'm not even convinced by that. The French people may want peace, of that I am certain. But the French government are Gaullists (right wing by American standards). They see Europe as a new empire, with France playing the leading role. Its sad, but unfortunately I think its true. I don't totally disagree with them. I would like to see a stronger Europe too. I think this world needs counterbalances to stop any single country becoming too powerful. I think a much more proactive approach towards defence and world affairs could be useful too. The only thing I don't like is the idea of having the French at the head of this. But that will never happen, that's not how the EU works...

Q

raid517

Don't get me wrong, I think America is just as bad as France in all this. I certainly am not taking any sides.

Q

Falstaff

Civilized peoples might find peace the best alternative to war under most circumstances, as long as trade and currency change hands and borders remain intact, everyone should be happy, within the scope of the "narrow view" But with history of the Hussien Regime with regard to human rights, his eagerness to increase his military power, and his attempts to invade and occupy his nieghbors in the past, civilized countries that originally invested massive support of for his weapons programs are obligated to find a dramatic resolution to the problem. Eliminating weapons of mass destruction in IRAQ. I don't think inspections and appeasement (in any form) is effective. Saddam Hussien is a meglomaniac and does not obey the rules of the civilized world. I know France has had a long and cordial relationship with IRAQ, we destroyed lots of French made planes all over IRAQ and stumbled into french and russian advisers as U.S. armoured divisions sliced through southern IRAQ. But that isn't the point really, the thrust of my argument is this: Dominique de Villepin is postering for the benefit of preserving France's financial interests, and France's relationship with the Hussien regime.
My brother, a Major in the U.S. Army stationed in Europe and a member of the military intelligence community see the French people as indifferent with regard to IRAQ. The French people want lower gas prices, less government involved in their lives, and a shorter work week, not much different than the average working american. Now that is an argument for peace, as long as no one gets hurt right? But these times dictate a more proactive role in world politics. Replacement of the current government in IRAQ is tenable, destruction of WMD is tenable, as long as Saddam Hussien will remove himself from power and destroy his military threats to his neighbors. A war with IRAQ is very "winable". The U.S. military intelligence community has slice up IRAQ into little tiny pieces on a flat piece of vellum, identified targets from the air, and with ground penetrating radar technology, isolated hidden weapons all over IRAQ, when the moment of truth arrives, arguments for peace are moot anyway.
The French foreign minister may be holding all his cards very close to his chest when it comes official statements, but the last people fleeing IRAQ before we make any serious moves will be all the foreign advisers, the French among them as well.
I read the French daily news for what it is worth, here is an excerpt if I may:

France's foreign minister, Dominique de Villepin, indicated that the new U.S.-backed proposal would not reverse France's staunch resistance to military action.

"We will not accept a resolution that will lead to war," de Villepin said during the debate. He proposed a meeting of heads of state and government regarding Iraq, an idea rejected by Powell.

The council debate revealed the suspicion and anger that have been steadily growing, not only between the United States and its longtime allies France and Germany, but also among European powers and between the United States and the U.N. weapons inspectors.

De Villepin criticized what he called the "other objectives" of a U.S. invasion, besides eliminating Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, including ousting Hussein and "recasting the political landscape of the Middle East."

If that is the intent, the French foreign minister said, "we run the risk of exacerbating tensions in a region already marked by great instability."

Spanish Foreign Minister Ana Palacio, a U.S. ally on Iraq, took sarcastic aim at France's proposal for continued inspections that could last months more before the council took decisive action.

"This, to paraphrase a French thinker, is merely the strategy of impotence," Palacio said.

Now those are powerful words from Spain's government, not everyone is in league with the French, they are in my opinion the most vocal..
whew........

raid517

Well for I just hope you find these hidden WMD... And BTW the only ground penetrating radar planes that were allowed in Iraq were supplied by the UN and the Russians. The USA has been forbidden from flying such planes in Iraq. So the intelligence you speak of comes from the UN - and they say they have uncovered nothing. This is despite visiting all the sites in the American's spy photographs - and 27 others not listed by the US. If you do find WMD I will be pleased, because then the terrorists can say you are simply exploiting Muslims and holly Muslim lands for their natural resources. I would like to see an independent verification process after the war that would confirm the existence of these WMD (particularly the supposed nuclear capacity the Iraqis have) just to put the matter beyond any question. Then maybe we can maybe get back to some normal living. If though you don't find anything particularly significant, then a big part of the security of the world will be screwed and America's reputation will be in tatters. This is a huge gamble. For everyone's sake I hope it pays off.

Q

Falstaff

Man I wish I could tell you everything, but we can and routinely use our own technology to ascertain threats within IRAQ, nuff said about that. But I don't think the U.S. intends to exploint resources in IRAQ, many muslim nations stand to benefit from the dramatic changes that will most certainly be made soon in IRAQ, I think no one wants to admit they were part of the American military effort until after it is all over, just like 12 years ago, I think that many reluctant powers still fear the relationship between terrorists and IRAQ. And I am not talking about Al Quida either,

ByteMe

That is a coop out. Ever hear shit or get off the pot?

ByteMe

Very true, and with what raid said earlier about france wanting to be the power in the EU. If history is once AGAIN a lesson the EU won't be able to fight it's way out of a wet paper bag.

Falstaff

you want to do us all a favor, get rid of Byteme, he is a thread corrupter of the first order

Dmac43

"Well for I just hope you find these hidden WMD... And BTW the only ground penetrating radar planes that were allowed in Iraq were supplied by the UN and the Russians. The USA has been forbidden from flying such planes in Iraq. So the intelligence you speak of comes from the UN - and they say they have uncovered nothing. This is despite visiting all the sites in the American's spy photographs - and 27 others not listed by the US. If you do find WMD I will be pleased, because then the terrorists can say you are simply exploiting Muslims and holly Muslim lands for their natural resources. I would like to see an independent verification process after the war that would confirm the existence of these WMD (particularly the supposed nuclear capacity the Iraqis have) just to put the matter beyond any question"

There are these new things out, I think they are called "SATTELITES" I believe they can pretty much go wherever they are sent and look at whomever or whatever they are told to look at. Now most of the information they gather is kept in confidence (even CNN can't get it)

This whole WMD thing kind of parrallels another atrocity that was not discovered until after a war had started...

Maybe you have heard of the holocaust ? You know that little thing where another Tyrannical leader had MILLIONS of people slaughtered just because they were Jews and he wanted it done?
Gee no one knew about that going on until the camps were discovered during a... yep you guessed it a WAR...

I'd have to rank Saddam right up there with ole Adolph on the twisted meter and I believe that the little bastard is willing to kill millions of his own people to keep his a *s * s in power
Anyone willing to believe in Saddam's rhetoric is as naieve as they were before WWII ...

On another point, does anyone here not realize that the leaders of the government in France are friends of Saddam and France has trade relations with Iraq???.
As one of the few larger countries who do have these trade policies they have a pretty damn good deal as they have the Iraqis over the proverbial barrel ...

Now what happens to this sweetheart deal if Saddam is ousted, and a new government is brought in that is free to deal with all of the countries in the world??? Ya think France will get the same deal? Ya think they will have the same leverage???

Lets also talk about those idiotic "NOW" people who claim that ousting the current government will not benefit the women of Iraq who are now routinely beaten, raped, and murdered... What the hell are they thinking???
Even the Iraqi women themselves have denounced these self serving imbeciles...

It's all about money, on all sides even Saddam's although he is about money, Power, ans Arrogance ...

ByteMe

Dude, I've QUOTED what someone else said and directly replied. What the fokk is your malfunction?


Why don't you shrink your head and use it as a paperweight? It's not much use for writing intelligent posts with, that's for sure.

raid517

Well I was willing to make allowances for ByteMe, I always got the impression that he came here on his 'big yellow computer' as it were, and so I always thought it best just to let him be. He obviously has some 'special requirements' as usually the FW is about as much as he can manage. Sometimes he bravely pops his head up out of the mud and says something. Usually it makes people groan.

I dunno.. You could almost feel sorry for the guy. I wonder what age he is. (His mental age might be another factor). But not to worry, what would the forum be like without ByteMe? He is like the pet dog you have that always tries to have sex with you're guests legs, but he's just so dumb and helpless you can't help but forgive him. Still telling moderators that he would like to see various animals shit in their mouths is taking things a little far. So maybe ToshiroOC might want to speak to him, who knows. I'm not sure what good it would do, but what the hey.

Q

raid517

@Dmac43 are you saying that it is seriously possible to condem the building of this kind of nuclear facility? http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...deid_ik-20.htm or http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...udeid_dg-2.htm

It does look a bit like there may be some kind of underground tunnels for secretly transpoting stuff, but who knows what the real purpose might be?

I guess you must object to this kind of thing hu? Oh well...

Q

Dmac43

Ummm... What's yer point ????

GOG

Sure we have, the problem is that the US government always shit OUTSIDE the pot.

raid517

My point is so what so wrong about this? It might be a nuclear base, but I don't see your problem with it. Do you mean you would condem these bases?

Q

Dmac43

What in the fuck are you talking about????

raid517

Well I just wondered if you thought such Mid Eastern nuclear bases were a potetial threat? It seems a straightforward question. If you have a problem with them then I just wondered what your position was? Should inspectors be allowed in to examine them, or should they just be bombed out of existance? I don't see why you need to curse over that. It seems like a straighforwar and reasonable enough question.

Q

ToshiroOC

Byteme, you will not post personal insults of that type again outside of the flame warzone. If you wish to say things like that, stay in the FW.

Dmac43

"Well I just wondered if you thought such Mid Eastern nuclear bases were a potetial threat? It seems a straightforward question. If you have a problem with them then I just wondered what your position was? Should inspectors be allowed in to examine them, or should they just be bombed out of existance? I don't see why you need to curse over that. It seems like a straighforwar and reasonable enough question."

Why not ask "Do you think Mid Eastern nuclear bases are a threat" ?

My confusion stems from the fact that I made no comment on anything nuclear...

My opinion on "any" nuclear base is that they are indeed dangerous...
That said, If the base is run by a sane government, and well protected it is less dangerous...

Chernobyl is a perfect example of a nuclear plant gone wrong...


Now should inspectors be alowed to inspect nuclear bases, YES absolutely...

Should inspectors expect that what they will be viewing is the real deal (not looking at an empty hangar where things used to be before Saddam's magic caravan