How can a war with Iraq now be justified

UberLord

Ah - now we get to the nub of the problem. How about supporting a "no evil" policy. If both sides are evil then don't support them at all!

<satire>
Unless you need to

a) Boost your flagging economy
2) Boost your voter ratings
</satire>

bluelight

No you obviously was all wrong given that your little baby Saddam has become a much much worse problem that Iran has ever been.

On top of that....In Iran exists an opposition representated by its president that is slowly slowly breaking the ice between the west and Iran.

This...has not happened with your former allie that you used to fight YOUR war against Iran.



The question is still valid....Moral...

Accusing the French...while you were yourself occupied by selling arms to Saddam even after it was known that he had used Ameican material sold by you to kill 5000 people.


The senate said...no...but...the republican government....said yes...


You are no better than anyone else.That is what i am after.It is very very simple.
'
The rethorics America uses today about Europe is worthless....if od course the truth is of interests...which of course it isnt since there is a war on.


Bluelight

JavaFox

Okay, Uber! Man, if only had a time machine, I could fix all the instances of when the US supported the lesser of the two evils...





Hey, isn't that EVIL STALIN, whose help was invaluable in defeating the Nazis?

raid517

Saddam has said he will not burn the oil fields. If anyone tries they are dead. The oil fields are the first thing that will be 'liberated' when the war starts. Thousands of Special Forces troops are waiting for the signal to go now.

And who really has been the biggest recipient of Iraqi oil over these last 12 years? France? Germany? No! It’s the good old god loving, we're so superior USA. Should I say that that is evil too, just like you accused France and Germany of?

.

So you want me to prove the US has nuclear weapons? Mmm that’s a tough one... But OK, hang on while I hook up to my local spy satellite. Ahh... that's it, here we go... http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/doe.htm Seems pretty clear to me... There are now quite a few commercial spy satellites in space, so long as you have enough money you can pretty much see anything. In fact if you think your GF is cheating on you, you can hire time on some Russian spy satellites to check... The Bottom line is, if you want to find WMD, it isn't really so hard. Isn't the internet an amazingly interesting and useful thing?

Well make up your mind, either they should look for them, in which case Saddam isn't complying by offering the information without the UN having to search, or he offers them up willingly and without restrictions as is demanded in the Canadian proposal, which means it would take a month to complete the job. However the US has refused to even consider this compromise, thus making it practically impossible for Iraq to comply.


The UN did a pretty good job of the intelligence it had without the US, if the US couldn't supply any evidence, it looked for it elsewhere. In this case it got satellite imagery from Russia and France, and spy photography from French Mirage jets and night photography from specialist Russian aircraft designed specifically to spot movement of nuclear and other material at night time. It also had intelligence from at least 6 other intelligence services around the world - all of which were no doubt (and by your own estimation) a lot more forthcoming than the Americans. Indeed so good was the intelligence that the UN had, it found and inspected 27 additional suspect sites

And the Germans sold nuclear technology? Lets see what the Nrw York Times has to say about that:

So there's a bit of a stink of where these machines actually came from. It appears at that time the US is one of only a few countries who had the technology to produce them. Just to check though I did a search of Google http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en...22buy%22&meta= and I found that it is really incredibly easy to buy Electron Beam Welders, indeed I even found a very nice second hand one at a knock down price: http://www.wme-inc.com/ So maybe I could buy one from America and start my own nuclear research program? It seems easy enough to do.
Also see: http://www.sundayherald.com/31710


Yes their going ahead no matter what. Unfortunately it would take Iraq (think of Iraq like a huge oil tanker - oh but then your government already do) it would literally take a month to turn this tanker around, but your government isn't willing to offer them this chance to disarm.


Well there is a lot at stake here. More than money, more than oil, more than anything, it is the very reputation of America that has been placed on the line. Will you find WMD? I sure hope so, despite the recriminations, as this might heal some of the differences that will certainly exist if you do not. As for having additional intelligence. It is possible that your government could have access to information which we do not. After all it is your government who sold him much of the nuclear and arms technology that he allegedly now possesses. Maybe they still have a list of this?



Well how you quantify 0% and 15% I don't know. Hans Blick said that Iraqi co-operation was 'substantial and improving daily'. I think, given that it is his team doing the inspections, he is ni a better position to judge than you and I.

:

Who will gain the most economically and financially after a successful war with Iraq ? France? Nope! Germany? Nope! America? Yup!


Erm.. How about Hewit Packard, IBM and Xerox to name but a few?

Well I think you covered that one yourself. You did say these things were sold unknowingly. So you can't imply they are complicit in this.

Anyhoo I'm glad you felt the need to quote me so extensively. It makes this so much more interesting for me. Keep it up for as long as you want and I will keep responding. I am happy to keep refuting everything you say.

Anyway, more information on Iraq's nuclear program...

http://www.ceip.org/files/nonprolif/...sp?NewsID=4379


I wonder if one day I will run out of links to post? Perhaps it might happen in a few years or so. In any case i will be quite happy to keep posting until I do.

Have fun!

Q

JavaFox

EXACTLY. With France and Russia poised to lose billions when the regime of Iraq is replace, is it any surprise, then, that those countries oppose war?

raid517

Well that turned out to be a bit of a mistake too. Everyone paid big time for the next 60 years for that oversight - and it cost literally trillions upon trillions of dollars to put right. I don't consider Stalin to be a lesser of two evils, I think it is a reasonable position to describe him as the very embodyment of evil. If it came to a fight between Hitler and Stalin I would have probably left them to fight it out. Then when who ever won that fight, I would have kicked their asses.

But I don't forget that this is just a stoopid political forum... These guys had to make some real world choices. I'm just glad I didn't have to make those decisions, or live with the consequences.

Q

raid517

Lol nice deliberate misquote JF. What I really said was:
So you deliberately left out the country who will gain most out of all this. Enjoy your economic boom why not! (Although sadly projections state that it is likely to be short lived, since the underlying problems with the economy will not just go away). Sure France and Germany are upset at loosing Billions, but given the size of France and Germany’s economies, this is no small deal. Mmm France and Germany stand to loose Billions, they are upset... America stands to gain many Billions more, America is pleased. I wonder who the worse offender here is? It looks bad both ways to me.

Q

UberLord

That sure is EVIL STALIN.

I try and preach a perfect world - the UK isn't and has never been perfect.
But please don't point that finger at me as my arguments here are my own, they reflect my point of view and do not represent those of the UK where I currently reside.

So go ahead and poke fun at the UK - I won't care as the UK governments views rarely reflect my own.

I entrust you'll endear me the same level of respect when I poke the Finger Of Fun (tm) at the current US Administration

UberLord

Counter argument

What does America gain from war with Iraq?

If they want peace then let the co-operation continue for another month - thats what the international inspectors asked for.

So Bush wants the war to go ahead regardless. He's made it clear that he doesn't want peace - so what does he gain?

Voters?

raid517

Well there certainly would be a short term economic boom after a war. I would expect it might last just long enough to get Bush re-elected.

Q

UberLord

He's got another 1.5 years to go (NOV 2004?? ) so the ideal time for him to start war mongering would be in the final 6 months of his agenda. So I guess we can rule that one out.....

nah - thats unrelated to the current situation - but I'm have had a few beers so I thought I'd throw it into the mix

but could it be this?

raid517

No the projections are that oil prices will have halved within 18 months and that the economic boom will have reached its peak by then.

So if you want to hit that target, now is the time to go.

Given these projections, it makes a lot of sense to me.

Q

astrolabos

Ok. I've watching your conversation. I want to transfer a major question that a lot of Greeks (and more) have. Why are you concerned about the peacekeeping of the world? Who asked you to do so?
And even if your president of the US would like to have a word about whatever takes place in this little planet called earth, then why you should be the only to vote for the presidency? Don't we must vote too? It's our future anyway....
My best regards

raid517

Lol, there's a novel idea, we all secede to the USA and then vote Bush out. HaHa, I'm sure that would piss a few people off. But what the hey, I'm not a nationalist, I think countries are a stoopid idea, so why not? It does point out very well how the world is unrepresetative right now. But in reality of course, it would never work.

Q

UberLord

[url=http://www.un.org/Overview/achieve.html]The Greeks are part of the UN[/ur]
So your invovled in it

astrolabos

Yes. I am aware of that. But what happens when George Bush Jr tries to bypass the U.N. by saying "We are going to take up military action whether U.N allows it or not"?
A Greek politician back in the 5 b.C. century said "the worth of man shows when he has power at his hand. The way he hadles it shows what kind of person he is"

JavaFox

We aren't bypassing the UN. We are in full compliance under Chapter 7, Resolution 1441, Resolution 678, and others.

If you need details, I would be more than happy to supply them.

astrolabos

Look, I didn't say that you are bypassing the U.N., but that the president of the U.S. by his words seemed that he thinks that he can be above international laws and regulations as they are declared by the U.N.
I think that it was a mistake that he - the president of the U.S. - said that he will bypass the U.N.'s decisions if the thinks that it will be necesssary...

raid517

Are you in compliance with the UN when you announce 24 hours before a crucially important meeting in the Security Council you will overule whatever decision it makes? Or are you in compliance when you tell inspectors that you will not allow them the time they need to finish their tasks? How can you justly claim this is about 'disarmament' if the Iraqis are not going to be allowed the time they need to comply. UN inspectors said if could take a month. What is a month in the scale of things? It is not a tear, or 200 years it is a month, after which he must be seen to have met all hist targets without reservation. Saddam without any guns or nasty bombs to back up his power? How long, given all his enemies, do you seriously think he would last? Bush announced 24 hours before the Security Council meeting that he didn't give a stuff what the UN did. Then he gave inspectors an impossible amount of time to complete their tasks, just to emphasise how little he cared about anything that happened there. So all in all, the goal a lot of right wing Conservatives have dreamed of has been achieved. The UN and its authority have been completely cast aside. Congratulations on this wonderful achievement! I hope the results are as you expect.

Q

JavaFox

Yes, Raid, we are. If you read any of the aforementioned resolutions, or the UN Charter (or at least the pertinent chapters), you'd know that.

raid517

I mean is it just me, or does anyone here really feel threatened by Saddam Hussein? If you go out at night to your car do you think "Shit I better not. Old Saddam might get me and whoop my ass!" No of course not! Most people in the West don't give a shit about Saddam Hussein. They care more about their mobile phones, game boys and new gizmos and gadgets than they do about Iraq. If you ran a survey and asked what would concern you more, Saddam Hussein acting like a jerk and waving his little toy sword at the world, or if they found out they couldn't get e-mail on their brand new third generation mobile phones, the majority would undoubtedly say that lack of e-mail was the biggest worry they had. Call me crazy, but I've never in my life had my ass whooped so bad by someone that I ended up really liking the guy for doing it. So what is dropping bombs on people's heads likely to achieve? If you want people to stop terrorising you, quit making them hate you. A lot of Americans say, "Well they just hate us because their jealous of us and there's nothing we can do about that." But that's not true, that's just completely arrogant cocieted BS. That's not why they hate you. That's like some big fat greasy lank haired chick going on the Jerry Springer show in full spandex outfit, dripping in cheap jewellery and as the audience boos at her on to the stage she jiggles her fat ass around in a circle, curses at the audience and says "yeah, yeah, baby, you know what it is, you know you want me..." It is utter and complete arrogance to make that assumption. Most people have their own cultures and are perfectly happy with them. If you want people to stop hating you then why not stop dropping bombs on their heads and start dropping mobile phones, and Gameboys and annoying laptop computers that don't work properly instead? That way they would be just as daunted by the prospect of trying to get e-mail on their cell phones as we are and would simply be too distracted to think about waging war or of hating anyone.

Well call me crazy, but it sounds like a winning formula to me.

Q

astrolabos

Could you please define "West" ?