The Arabian European Liga

Smoothdrive · Mar 5, 2003, 04:30 AM

With all the Iraq debates going on..did anyone take an interest in this movement ? They are a political organisation striving for power through the democratic system..however they do so in several European countries..and seem to be a fast growing organisation.

I did not do my homework on it yet..but through the popular media i've heard that they do have some very radical ideas..of course this is popular media so i don't take these statements as fact..and that they find a big crowd in especially the younger Muslim 2nd generation immigrants in Europe.

Anyone have any toughts or facts on this organisation ?

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 5, 2003, 04:53 AM

No i have never heard of such an orgaisation existing in Europe thought to "unite" all immigrants and if there was one i would have.

Give us a link if you have one.

BlueLight

Smoothdrive · Mar 5, 2003, 05:26 AM

Here is their English language website..seems they are only active in Belgium and holland so far..there is also a Ducth version but i take it you don't speak Dutch

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 5, 2003, 09:31 AM

Well to me it loks like a regular site that talks about general muslim arab issues such as Palestine..nothing else.A European political party...hardly...

If this page is looking fearful to you then ill post you one hundred links to Nazi sites all over Europe that...do......look fearful.

BlueLight

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 5, 2003, 09:44 AM

Yeah i forgot to say.....I would welcome if immigrants all over Europe became more active politically.If some form their own parties ans ome join the ones that already exists im sure it would be of benefit to all of Europe.

It is only when people use their democratic rights that things go forward.To many immigrants live lifes outside of everything in isolation from the rest of society which creates a lot of problems for themselves....and for us.

Europe has a big population of immigranst and...we will probably need more people in the future if we want to continue developing since we ourselves in many countries do not get enough children.-

Here in Sweden we will have big problems in say 10 15 years taking careof all old peole simply because there is not enough young people...etc etc...

Immigration as it is today does not work very well....the only way of making it work witout friction is for immigrants to start taking part naturally in "nationbuilding" if one phrases it like that.

That is in a way what has always been going on in Usa.maybe that is also why Nazi tendencies are not very strong there.At least not the way they are here.

BlueLight

Smoothdrive · Mar 5, 2003, 10:27 AM

Nazi's tendencies not very strong in US ?? they are bigger in the US than in Europe I think..i've seen some documentaries of neo-Nazi's having complete military training facilities in the US..of course they can say what they want there and have easy acces to arms there..now that was scary to see..

Like i said i did not do my homework on the AEL yet..i know they are a political organisation working on being electable..i've heard they got some ideas like not respecting Israel as an independent state and those kind of statements..those could very wel be media-hype statements tough
I do not think they are something to be scared of....i just know little about them and was wondering if anyone knew something more about this organisation..

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 5, 2003, 10:56 AM

Well they are hardly gonna succed with any extreme politics...denying the existance of Israel is extreme as i see it evem if i hate the current politics of the Israeli government.

Bluey

raid517 · Mar 5, 2003, 03:31 PM

I can dig up a thousand similar sites all around the web, all from Muslims saying more or less the same things. "Our voices aren't being heard, we're sick of being screwed over by the West, who take our Oil and natural resources and keep us from objecting by supporting our oppressive leaders; the Palestinians are living under virtual apartheid and daily repression and have been denied a homeland and no one cares; the West occupies all of out holiest sites and perverts the aims and messages of our religion; the West destroys our culture etc. etc..." It’s a familiar message - and in many instances a valid one. We will never address the issues of terrorism, until we deal with these issues, starting first with the Palestinian question. Only when this issue is tackled can we begin to look at all these other issues and only then will Arab terrorism cease to become a factor.

Q

Ps

I am unsure of the purpose of this thread, unless its an attempt to invite some kind of condemnation? Condemnation of what? Of Islam? Of Muslims? Of what a great many people see as legitimate Arab grievances? Please explain.

Smoothdrive · Mar 6, 2003, 04:04 AM

Well Raid, you're unsure about the purpose becuase you obviously take it leftish hostile...very close to calling me a right-extremist there dude..not appreciated.

I've explained the purpose and i'm not gonna do so again..

Obviously no one here has any more on the subject so lets just rest it.

JavaFox · Mar 6, 2003, 11:09 AM

Must everything be some sort of conspiracy to you, Raid? Smoothdrive was clear in expressing that he started this thread to learn about, and hear opinions regarding the AEL.

raid517 · Mar 6, 2003, 01:08 PM

Not quite a conspiracy, I was just curious as to why this group was highlighted when there are many simililar groups? Like bluelight I know that such groups are quite common, so why choose this one? I wasn't saying it was a conspiracy I was saying "So what?".

Still if you don't want to discuss why you highlighted the group that's fair enough. If you want to learn more about them (or of any similar groups) there are many discussions and links supplied there that will tell you exactly what they are about. They have hardly made it a secret.

Odd that you should take it that I was inferring you were racist, since that's not what I said at all. But if this is a sensitive area for you, then perhaps you are right and it is best if we leave it alone. Its your thread, so entirely your choice.

Q

Smoothdrive · Mar 6, 2003, 02:27 PM

Well Raid i highlighted this group because this is not just another small time radical action group that you are so familiar with..this is a fast growing political movement with muslims extremist ideas..and i do know enough about the Islam to know what exactly that means..

I also know the diffrence between a club house meeting with a kid who can make a website and a serious organisation, thank you.

Dutch telly is fast to answer me..just saw a Debat on TV between Muslim immigrants supporting the AEL and Muslim immigrants who are very much against the AEL.

In case anyone else wants to know..the AEL started in Belgium, is more than the average 15 man protest group there now and has started to expand there actions to Holland.

They target the low-educated, low income Muslims..claiming they fight for "equal rights for muslims"

Basic message they preach is "We are Arabs, Muslims, Proud of it and we will not turn European because you want us to adjust to your society"

The Muslims who are against mostly commented "they are to radical, they wish to make the differences bigger instead of smaller"

raid517 · Mar 6, 2003, 03:05 PM

Sooo you are saying because they want to aggressively campaign to preserve their culture they are somehow wrong? Or perhaps you are inferring they are terrorists? By that reasoning this would make gay rights activists terrorists, or pro abortionists, or anti abortionists even, or campaigners for the rights of disabled people. Should we lock all these people up on suspicion of terrorism, just because they feel their voice has been marginalised and that the only way to redress this balance is to be vocal and active in their opposition to wide spread prejudice? Are you saying that all these kinds of activities should be forbidden? Or are you saying that only this specific groups rights should be inhibited? You didn't want to talk about racism, so I trust this is not what you mean. In any case that is certainly not the liberal, inclusive and progressive Holland that I know. Once more if this is your view, you are very likely to be in a minority - and not a very pleasant minority at that. Just because the media likes to play on people's fears doesn't mean you should suppress your own innate ability to think for yourself. Give up your TV and try talking to some of these people. I am sure when you do you will understand them a lot more clearly than you currently do.

Q

JavaFox · Mar 6, 2003, 07:59 PM

Raid, you are being excessively insulting, though it is unclear to me as to exactly why. Perhaps you can explain to me exactly how Smoothdrive called anyone a terrorist in this thread. Or when he made any semblance of a normative/judgemental statement. Was it perhaps when he called the AEL "a political organisation striving for power through the democratic system"? Or perhaps when he called them "not just another small [...] group"? I am thoroughly confused.

raid517 · Mar 6, 2003, 08:04 PM

No JF I am just asking what his point is about them? It seems he is saying that the very existance of such groups is wrong. I would be keen to understand on what reasonable basis this assumption is made?

I am not sure how that is insulting. It is simple curiosity.

Q

raid517 · Mar 6, 2003, 08:11 PM

Then again if the point he was making was "Look at this wonderfully democratic group, who are a shining example of what it means to live in a tollerant and democratic society.", then clearly I am wrong in being overly curious about this. However if his purpose was to applaud such groups, he did not make that at all clear. And since he did not make this clear, it is for the reader to judge if this really was his intention.

But if this was about genuine caring and empathy for your fellow Muslim human being, then I'm sorry if I may have read it to be otherwise. It seems it was an easy mistake to make.

Q

Smoothdrive · Mar 7, 2003, 02:38 AM

Raid i will ignore your comments, i'm sorry but your tone continues to be much too offensive to reply to..Perhaps you should try and keep an open mind about these discussions instead of judging people before hand.
I did not judge the AEL one way or another, i've just stated what i've learned about it..yet you've been trying to push me into the radical right corner from the start accusing me of being against this group or trying to forbid them....you just stay in your safe little corner against the big bad world why others try to learn something ok.

raid517 · Mar 7, 2003, 02:53 AM

Well I would still be interested in what your perspective of groups like this really is. I don't think asking you what your feelings about them are, or what your purpose in highlighting them was should be offensive. If it had no purpose then why highlight them? To be frank I'm not against anyone, so that accusation has little meaning or impact on me. The only thing I am against is ignorance. And since you haven't stated what the intented message of your initial post was, this isn't something I can accuse you of, is it?

Might I suggest if you feel cornered, it is you alone who has put yourself there? All I have done is ask what your position on these groups is? Ovbviously you intended to convay a position, otherwise you wouldn't have pointed them out. If you find my curiosity offensive then I'm sorry. I am not sure why though. Didn't you post here in order to invite some kind of discussion on this group?

Q

JavaFox · Mar 7, 2003, 02:59 PM

I would ask that you refrain from being belligerent and so apt to jump to conclusions, Raid. You once said that you were only nasty in retaliation, but having careful read this thread, it seems as though Smoothdrive never once made any sort of a normative statement whatsoever; yet you seem to be attacking him and his intellect for no discernable reason whatsoever. If you are perhaps having a bad day, my good and honorable friend, may I suggest that you vent in the Flame Warzone and not here?

Thank you.

raid517 · Mar 7, 2003, 03:32 PM

No JF, I don't see it. All I'm doing is asking the guy what he meant? If that's offensive then it takes offensive to a new definition. (One mind you that I am willing to bare in mind). But if we are just pointlessly discussing groups for no particular reason here, how about I post this group http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/26/15/feature3.shtml ? Apparently when this guy got shot, his supporters rioted through the streets destroying property, waving swastikas and chanting racist slogans. And my purpose of posting links to this group? Why none, none whatsoever... It is simply interesting perhaps to see, just how 'democratic' the Netherlands can be.

Q

JavaFox · Mar 7, 2003, 05:32 PM

Sir, I have made my request, and would ask that you comply. And please don't go on a "the moderators are silencing me because they don't like it when people are curious" rampage, please.

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 7, 2003, 06:27 PM

Well i do have a problem seeing the insults here.Really.

He is discussing the topic.He isnt calling anyone by names.He isnt insulting anyone.

Bluelight

ToshiroOC · Mar 7, 2003, 07:25 PM

raid517, check your PMs. This will be kept out of the thread from now on. Please stay on topic from now on.

~~ByteMe~~ · Mar 8, 2003, 01:28 AM

I'm being repressed! I'm being repressed! Remember monty python?

Back on topic... I don't care about the Arabian yadda yadda whatever.

raid517 · Mar 8, 2003, 01:47 AM

Ok I still don't quite see the offence other than asking what the thread was supposed to be about? It seems pointless to have posted a topic and not wish to discuss it. It could have been a worthy debate about the various extremist groups in the Netherlands/Europe. Is one group any better than another? Should all such groups be banned from expressing their views? (No matter how unpleasant to some they may seem). It seems like a reasonable topic for any debate. But if you do not wish to discuss it further then I will be happy to let it go. I am not about to go on any "rampage" as you put it JF, your the mod, so if you want to close a topic there's not much anyone can do about it. I still don't understand why you would but, as I said you’re the mod so that's up to you.

In any case we tolerate such groups here in the UK, both Muslim and far right, but we have just recently brought in a law that can put people in prison for inciting racial hatred. I don't know if any other country in Europe has such a law (or perhaps the US) - and I'm sure others might find such laws anti-democratic, but the odd consequence of this is that the only two people arrested under this law so far this year have been radical Muslims, who have gone to prison for preaching that Muslims should kill "Americans, Jews and unbelievers." The flip side of this is that extreme right wing groups have to be very careful about what they say too, but ultimately it seems to be a law that works. So while in the UK we tolerate such groups, we do not let them cross over the line between pursuing their beliefs and normal civilised behaviour. I wonder if this approach might work in other countries too?

Anyway, perhaps JF might wish to close the thread on this topic, but I still find it interesting. Should people have complete freedom to say what they think and feel at all times? Or should there be certain responsibilities and restrictions placed on that freedom - and if so how far should those restrictions go? That is a valid and worthy question I think.

Anyway if this subject is not open for discussion then fair enough.

Q

JavaFox · Mar 8, 2003, 03:24 PM

Nope. As a moderator in charge of Political Section, I have a vested interest in promoting calm, intelligent debate. But if you're going to venture into underhanded sniping, then I have to stop you. At any rate, this matter really doesn't warrant any discussion any more; if you want to talk about teh AEL, by all means do.

---

Now, to be on-topic...

The US doesn't have anti-hate speech laws as many European nations do. I don't agree with such laws myself; if other democracies want to create such laws, however, that is a right for which I do not fault them for exercising. There are, however, numerous forms of unprotected speech in America -- speech whose purpose is to directly and imminently incite lawlessness ("Go kill Jews in the street!") isn't protected under US law.

Falstaff · Mar 8, 2003, 03:39 PM

forget about posting from now, once you've raised arguments regardless of whether there are tangible results, a stigma will follow you and you may become overmoderated. I enjoy almost everything you have to say, but to be honest, I can't think of one thing I agree with, ha ha...If I were you I would back away from all of it. I made a bold statement and got shot down before my thread got off the ground, the moderators have their own political bias's as well, if you continue to read back through other threads you will definitely see what I mean, then make your own judgements..hang in there man, I am sure you will always have something relevant to say, even if I don't agree with it, ha ha...