The Arabian European Liga

Falstaff · Mar 8, 2003, 04:26 PM

I agree with the "over moderators" relax, get off the damn computer and get some sunshine, whenever byteme or anyone else responsible for excremental posts and scatalogical remarks steps in to throw you off, your not going to get anywhere if your frustrated. I don't agree with much that you say but when most of the posts start coming from moderators then we are all in trouble, ha ha...
I would politely ask you to stay focused if I was interested in what you have to say. hang in there man. get some fresh air, and watch some T.V. I will no longer take any of this dialogue seriously until I see more inciteful or helpful posts from moderators as well..

raid517 · Mar 8, 2003, 04:32 PM

As for being on topic, I don't think its fair just to dismiss this as a subject not worthy of debate. Our race hate laws in the UK are fairly new and pretty liberal too. Basically its the same as what JF said, you can say what you want, you can even say you hate Jews and Muslims etc. But you can't say you want them dead or you want others to join with you in killing them. It works both ways, as is shown in this article. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1966839.stm Both the far right and extreme religious groups pay the price. It is not just innocent ravings either. The far right in the UK have links to terror groups in Ireland and have trained people in terrorist tactics, while Muslim extremists sent people to Afghanistan to fight and have incited acts of terrorism in the UK. It is fairly handy when people misbehave to this degree to just slam their asses in jail for a decade or two.

Maybe preaching hatred isn't considered wrong but inciting murder and terrorism certainly should be. That's why I can't understand some right wing thinking that states that preventing this kind of activity is against free speech. If you have free speech, surely you should be expected to use that right responsibly?

That's just my take on this. Maybe others will feel differently.

Q

raid517 · Mar 8, 2003, 04:35 PM

Ooops, you beat me to it Jeff... Yes maybe I should take a break... I don't know about TV, as I don't own one (by choice) so maybe a nice long walk in the brisk spring air would be nice.

See you later.

Q

JavaFox · Mar 8, 2003, 04:37 PM

I don't know what the right is like in the UK, but the right in America would not argue against prosecuting those who incite violence. I think you and I agree with each other on this, Raid. America has a long history or ruling to protected hateful speech, but speech that directly contributes to violence is not, and should not be protected.

UberLord · Mar 8, 2003, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
If you have free speech, surely you should be expected to use that right responsibly?

Interesting.

In a totally free world surely I should be free to be irresponsible .......

But for a law abiding and peaceful society we have to give up some of the more "extreme freedoms". One problem arises then governments take this to far....... a prime example of this is the US DCMA law (the UK have a similar law in the pipeline).

raid517 · Mar 8, 2003, 06:37 PM

Well you can't come on forums like this and not resent the DCMA... Erm... Having said that, I don't have a clue what JF thinks... But all this snooping activity led to to break my dependece on Windows anyway. So maybe (in that sense only) it wasn't such a bad thing...

Q

~~ByteMe~~ · Mar 8, 2003, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
ARTHUR: Old woman
DENNIS: Man!
ARTHUR: Man. Sorry. What knight lives in that castle over there?
DENNIS: I'm thirty-seven.
ARTHUR: I-- what?
DENNIS: I'm thirty-seven. I'm not old.
ARTHUR: Well, I can't just call you 'Man'.
DENNIS: Well, you could say 'Dennis'.
ARTHUR: Well, I didn't know you were called 'Dennis'.
DENNIS: Well, you didn't bother to find out, did you?
ARTHUR: I did say 'sorry' about the 'old woman', but from the behind you looked--
DENNIS: What I object to is that you automatically treat me like an inferior!
ARTHUR: Well, I am King!
DENNIS: Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress with the--
WOMAN: Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here. Oh! How d'you do?
ARTHUR: How do you do, good lady? I am Arthur, King of the Britons. Who's castle is that?
WOMAN: King of the who?
ARTHUR: The Britons.
WOMAN: Who are the Britons?
ARTHUR: Well, we all are. We are all Britons, and I am your king.
WOMAN: I didn't know we had a king. I thought we were an autonomous collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship: a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh, there you go bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That's what it's all about. If only people would hear of--
ARTHUR: Please! Please, good people. I am in haste. Who lives in that castle?
WOMAN: No one lives there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week,...
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: ...but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting...
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: ...by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,...
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: ...but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major--
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh? Who does he think he is? Heh.
ARTHUR: I am your king!
WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.
ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.
WOMAN: Well, how did you become King, then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,...
[angels sing]
...her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I, Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well, but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went 'round saying I was an emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up, will you? Shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
ARTHUR: Bloody peasant!
DENNIS: Oh, what a give-away. Did you hear that? Did you hear that, eh? That's what I'm on about. Did you see him repressing me? You saw it, didn't you?

Allright uber, that was WAY off topic (another notch in your about to be banned file), but I gotta admit... monty python rules. Do you have this scene memorized? (And to think I thought I needed help).

Back on topic... so what did this "Arabian whatever" ever decide or do?

UberLord · Mar 8, 2003, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ByteMe
Allright uber, that was WAY off topic (another notch in your about to be banned file), but I gotta admit... monty python rules. Do you have this scene memorized? (And to think I thought I needed help).

Nah - your quote reminded me. A quick search on google provided the meat and two veg to one of the best bits of the Holy Grail - which is my favourite comedy

BTW - read between the lines and you'll find the sketch is quite on-topic - but may maybe not from the US POV

Quote:

Back on topic... so what did this "Arabian whatever" ever decide or do?

Search me

~~ByteMe~~ · Mar 8, 2003, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
Nah - your quote reminded me. A quick search on google provided the meat and two veg to one of the best bits of the Holy Grail - which is my favourite comedy

Search me

You didn't even ATTEMPT to stay on topic!

ahhh, anyone answer my last question?

Falstaff · Mar 8, 2003, 09:37 PM

Byteme still here? He should maintain his cyber sniping in the Flaming War zone...

~~ByteMe~~ · Mar 8, 2003, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fallang_jeff
Byteme still here? He should maintain his cyber sniping in the Flaming War zone...

Ands just where in here have I insulted ANYONE besides now?

As it's the Happy Holiday season, may the Dove of Peace shit in your mouth.

UberLord · Mar 8, 2003, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ByteMe
You didn't even ATTEMPT to stay on topic!

ahhh, anyone answer my last question?

hmmmm

Quote:

Originally posted by ByteMe
I'm being repressed! I'm being repressed! Remember monty python?

Back on topic... I don't care about the Arabian yadda yadda whatever.

If you don't care why should I answer?

[SIZE=LARGE]DON'T MESS WITH TEH UBER, IN THE FLESH AND ON THE KEYBOARD[/size]

UberLord · Mar 8, 2003, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ByteMe
As it's the Happy Holiday season, may the Dove of Peace shit in your mouth.

I dont care if it's ur birthday - keep that language in the Flame Warzone

~~ByteMe~~ · Mar 8, 2003, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
I dont care if it's ur birthday - keep that language in the Flame Warzone

ok.

UberLord · Mar 8, 2003, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ByteMe
ok.

fine

raid517 · Mar 8, 2003, 10:40 PM

Erm people will probably hate me for doint his. But Is it really ByteMe's bithday? I don't recall him saying that. If it is then happy birthday ByteMe! I hope you have a very fun day.

Q

~~ByteMe~~ · Mar 8, 2003, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
Erm people will probably hate me for doint his. But Is it really ByteMe's bithday? I don't recall him saying that. If it is then happy birthday ByteMe! I hope you have a very fun day.

Q

No it is not. It just sounded better that way. If it was what would you buy me?

raid517 · Mar 9, 2003, 12:06 AM

Hmm.. I could think of a few answers to that question... Most of which are unprintable. But how anout a few bottles of beer and a couple of porno mags? Not a great present perhaps, but then I hardly know you.

I am almost desperate to tell you what you could do with the beer and porno mags... But then that would be against the rules of the forum.

I dunno though... Are you even old enough to drink? (In the UK the age limit is 18).

Q

Smoothdrive · Mar 10, 2003, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by raid517
[b]Well I won't push it Jeff. Let's just say not everyone, moderators included see things the same way. Political bias is an issue, but if moderators want to moderate on this basis that's fair enough. I confess, as you indicated that I do see it quite often. As for being overmoderated, well I can't possibly comment on that... But if JF wants me to leave the topic alone well, what the hey, it's dead anyway. The guy never did explain his position on these groups.

New week new views..let's not be like the many leaders of this world and stop discussing our differences..

Raid, I've explained at the start of this topic that i did not yet have a view on this group..i do not think we should talk about "groups like these" since you obviously also did not know anything about this particular group..so what groups do you mean by "groups like these"..

Did some reading on them by now and for now i am against this group.
To keep a long story short..they are forming a politcal group eligable for election in Belgium and Holland at this point. looking at expansion throughout all of Europe. Their points of view are radical, they could be viewed upon as an extreme right muslim organisation.
Their goals are to implement Islamitic laws and their tactic is to claim that the muslim community is being discrimintaed and would not have equal rights in Western European countries.

If they were truthfully pursuing equal rights for the muslim community i would welcome them..only thing is they do have equal rights already..in Holland at least.

Is it thinkable they can make it into the government ? Yes..the muslim immigrants do not represent a majority off course but they do represent enough votes to get these guys a decent seat in our government...a bigger seat than the current seats held by the smaller left parties to give you an idea of what we're talking about.

To touch the left/right issue in Holland..there are a lot of right oriented people in Holland these days...main reason imo is the violence used by the left action groups (even killing a politician in cold blood as you probably know) and the lack of addressing the immigrant problem.

raid517 · Mar 10, 2003, 05:03 AM

Well I am much closer to JF on this. I believe such groups have a perfect right to exist. I believe they can say and do what they want - and even pursue full political representation should they so desire it. The only point I would draw the line at is if they were ever discovered to be promoting violence or terrorism. Unless such links can be proven I would have no objection to their existence whatsoever.

Are you referring to Pim Fortuin? Many people throughout the world consider Pim Fortuin to be a neo-fascist. He wasn't against anyone because of terrorism, he was just against the Mulim faith as a concept and against immigration of people of Muslim origin based on race grounds alone. It doesn't help much that he was openly gay as, as far as I recall, Himler (Hitler’s deputy) was openly gay too. It still doesn't make hating people on race grounds alone any more acceptable.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/s...711331,00.html http://www.observer.co.uk/Print/0,3858,4412034,00.html

I don't really want to start a debate on Dutch politics as to be frank it simply doesn't interest me. But if your saying you support these ideas and are anti-Muslim immigration then fair enough. At least we all know where you stand now. That is the only question that anyone asked.

Personally I find this brand of anti-immigration race discrimination/haltered to be wholly reprehensible. But this forum exists so that people can express their full range of views, so you are of course welcome to express whatever view you wish. I don't think you will find much support from the American contingent here, or from the majority of other contributors. America was founded on immigration and free speech and traditionally has embraced people from a wide diversity of cultures and faiths. In most other European countries their is legislation against openly preaching this kind of race hatred. (At least to the degree where it is calculated that it could inspire violence). It is a shame that Holland, a previously very tolerant and liberal society has taken this lurch to the far right, but thankfully, with the new election results it is expected that this result will collapse to under 4%. I don't know what role extremism should have in politics. In a perfect world I would say none. But then, we do not live in a perfect world - and since such views exist in a democratic society unfortunately it is likely that they will be represented - even if they are in a very small minority.

Anyway, as I said you are welcome to express your views in whatever way you see fit - and I never intended to suggest otherwise. I think that most people are perfectly able to gauge for themselves whether they are likely to carry any validity or not.

Q

Smoothdrive · Mar 10, 2003, 05:36 AM

There you go again raid..i mention a killing of a politician and you go on about what you think of this politician and putting what you think are his views out here as being mine..

For the record your toughts about his ideas are way off and your comparison to a gay nazi is ridculous to say the least..but you've pretty much outlined the reason why he was killed..because of narrow minded extreme-left fools who didn't even bother to check the facts, didn't go into debate, didn't even listen ..just judged and killed a man.

I can do that to you know..

If you say killing Pim Fortuijn because you don't agree with his views is a good idea than at least we know where you stand in politics..myself i am against using these methods.

I won't go into the entire immigrantion problem here..not the topic for it...

~~bluelight~~ · Mar 10, 2003, 06:05 AM

I dont agree to killing any politicians whatever they are...but...this Pimdude was in practice a fascist.Nothing else.He had the same type of politics as Le pen or Haider.

There are a lot of these groups floating around in Europe.We have them here too...The start one party which lats a year or to then they fight about who is to be Fuhrer and split into two parties etc etc..

The reason thney exist is not.."violence from the left".

Violance from the left is nothing compared to the violence that has been carried out by extreme right or nazi groups against immigrants etc etc.

The reason these parties exists....are ignorance and lack of history.

There is possibly a problem with integration of immigrants.This is what these creeps use as a base for their politics.

By spewing hate and putting the blame on someone thay manage to get votes from peole that are discontent generally with politics.

So instead of actually doing something they take conmfort in knowing that if peole like Pim Haider or Le Pen comes to power..the all white simple community where everything is easy will be established.

Bluelight

JavaFox · Mar 10, 2003, 06:08 AM

If Pat Buchanan was ever elected (probably the American equivalent of LePen), I would be protesting in the streets. All countries --but especially European ones-- should welcome as many immigrants in as they can.

raid517 · Mar 10, 2003, 06:25 AM

Well I don't agree with killing anyone. As I said in a democracy we should be able to accommodate all perspectives. Anyway as far as I understand it (being, as you noted, not very interested in Dutch politics) he wasn't killed by left wing extremists by but by a radical vegan animal right activist. I'm not sure how, or even if the two are associated.

You say you object to this group but do not make it clear why? Do you mean because they are seeking political representation? Or because they are vocal about their desire to promote Muslim values? Exactly what is it you object to? Are there any established links with this group and terrorist activities? If so I would be the first to condemn them.

You say you don't sympathise with the views of Pim Fortuin, and then you highlight your distaste for the subject of immigration. Firstly why highlight this person if you do not sympathise with him - and second if you do not agree with his views, why repeat his views on the subject of immigration? Admittedly he was much more specific on this subject than you. He said that Muslims were uncivilised (I can find a more direct quote for you if you like?) and that specifically Muslim immigration should be prevented. If this is not the definition of racism then I don't know what is.

Still as I said I will not pursue this matter if you do not wish me to. I do not wish to imply you mean one thing or another. It is for you to establish your own position on these matters, or not as the case may be.

I don't know why you would make statement like this and then resent people for asking you to clarify them. But as I said, this is a matter for you to decide on. Ambiguity will always breed assumption in these matters, so unless you are very clear about what you mean, it is always possible that people will be led to make assumptions based on what they