France -- Its Selfishness Knows No Bounds

Malus

I like how all the Liberals take the topic completely off-topic, just so they don't have to answer the question. Now you can see why I hardly post anymore; it's a waste of time to have a civil discussion when no one will talk about the evidence you bring up. Must be taboo to discuss the truth in a public forum.

Anyway, I just hate it how everyone says France is doing the right thing, but the U.S. is doing it for oil. France is only doing it to keep their economic interests in Iraq safe. When Clinton made his random bombing of Iraq, the French didn't speak up, mainly because there was no threat of a regime change. When Bush says he'll bring democracy there, the French all of a sudden have a problem since there's a lot more of their money involved in this sort of situation.

I'm not saying that the U.S. is right, but France is definitely just as self-motivated as the U.S. appears to be.

Falstaff

I can remember the USS STARK, the exocet missles and the Etentard aircraft the French sold to the Hussien regime. The French are dirty, really dirty, they are in deep, and if we remove Saddam, we will probably find just how hypocratic the French government really is...The French government loaned the Hussien regime tremendous support over the past 12 years. To hell with the French.....they don't give a damn about the U.S.

raid517

Well in a year to 18 months time when your standing at the Gas station and the price of oil has dropped to half its current value, don't be scratching your head over how it happened is all. You say the French are selfish assholes, well just remember that when that happens and then maybe you might want to think twice. Sure the French might be arrogant, but there are equally arrogant people in the world... This may not be all about oil, but it is one of three or 4 good reasons that exist (its up to you to choose the relative order they come in) - if anything the French are less interested (they have no strategic interests in the region) than is the USA. Don't get off on some big idea that somehow anybody seriously believes the French are interested in the well being of the Iraqi people either. I've said it before and I'll say it again. Your both as bad as each other.

Q

Falstaff

the french government.....I do not think they really relfect the will fo the French people....and yes I have stood in line for gas in France, in Japan, in Saudi Arabia and America, I don't considrer the price of fuel to be an accurate barometer of the current political situation in the middle east, just price gouging by Amercian Oil Interests.....The French government is financially tied to IRAQ, and that is a fact, more if not as bad as the USA..

raid517

Hardly Jeff, the latest projections are that the price of oil will definitely drop to bellow half its current levels and that if a short successful war is prosecuted, the US economy will undergo a relative boom. Given the currently poor state of the US economy, the US' fortunes are as much, if not more so tied up in Iraq as is anyone else's. This isn't all about oil for the US no. It’s also about exerting a strong strategic presence in the area. A warning if you will to any potentially rogue states that the US is on their doorstep - and if they step out of line they will pay the price. Iraq if you look at a map (given that 89% of Americans between the ages of 13 and 24 can't even identify Iraq on a map http://www.lonelyplanet.com/mapshell.../iraq/iraq.htm) you will see how Iraq is perfectly strategically placed to tackle those the US has identified as being among its most mortal enemies. Just a coincidence perhaps? There are many other reasons, but in there somewhere there may, or may not be (depending on your viewpoint) the benefits that Iraq without Saddam would have for the Iraqi people. But although this is likely (in my eyes) to only be a minor consideration, it is the only factor of any significance to me. My only other objection was why did everything else have to be more or less trashed in the process? There was simply no need for that. And in that sense, if you’re looking for someone to blame, there's enough blame to go round for everyone.

Q

bluelight

Jeff did you sell the helicopters Saddam used to attack a Kurdish village with nervegas.Did 5000 people die?
Did the senate stop arms selling to Saddam at this point and did the government at this time ignore the senates decision and continue to sell arms to Iraq although Saddam had performed this nice little deed?

Did Donald Rumsfeld act as Usa man in Iraq in the eighties making arms deals with him?Did Usa also actually sell arms to Saddam?




Is your and so many others concern about the "bad" French....completly irrational??


Yes is the answer to all of these questions.Since you make the choice of complely ignoring what Americas own responsability in this is.


BlueLight

Malus

And you completely ignored the first post of this topic, unless I missed it in the eight pages of mindless dribble. Stop being a hypocrite. Don't yell at people for ignoring your questions if you ignore every question directed towards you. The first couple of pages consisted of you guys taking the topic way off topic. I really didn't expect to see so much America bashing in a topic about the French motives! Nobody said that the U.S. didn't commit atrocious acts, so stop bringing it up. That has nothing to do with the damn French.

The quality of this forum has been going down lately.

bluelight

Thisd is the second time i see you whine about things being off topic....


Can you explain a little further why you say i am off topic...DO so and ill explain to you why i am NOT off topic.


I am very much ON topic..the problem isnt that....the problem is that ypou dont like what i am saying so you try with a cheap trick....


Well it doesnt work.


I have never said the French are innocent lambs..but the way they are treated both here and in American media for the past...is ridiculous when considering your own deeds.That is why...i am NOT off topic.


Try and anwer my question instead.




Usa Irak...when they were buddies..


Naaah forget it.......it would be treason replying to it and admitting you are not better than the French



BlueLight

raid517

Mmm but at that time Jeff the Americans were openly selling Arms to Iraq too. So By the measure America is 'in deep' up to their necks in it even... I wonder if any of the hypocracy of past American administrations will be uncovered too? Or more likely will it just be disctretely 'hushed up'?

Q

Malus

I didn't want to resort to name-calling, but you are a moron. JavaFox pointed out that the French should have taken the initiative to solve the problem and also how the French are no better than the Americans. You, on the other hand, completely ignored that and asked about the killing of 5,000 Kurds and moved on to other types of mindless America bashing. Must I have to quote the original posts to show you what I mean? I hope not because that would be pathetic. If you want someone to answer your poorly written, gramatically incorrect questions, then make your own topic.

The point of JavaFox posting was not to have you ask off-topic questions, the point was to discuss the point he brought up. Do you even know what this thread is supposed to be about?

No, I'm not trying to trick you. You really did go off topic. JavaFox even noted it after your initial post.

You're right though, I don't like what you're saying. However, since you aren't mature enough to start your own thread for your own questions instead of ruining other threads, I won't even give you the time of the day.

There's no trick. Stop lying to yourself.

So it's ok for the French to bash Americans. but it's not ok for us to bash them? Hypocrite.

Answer JavaFox's original post. If you're going to post something off topic, make a new thread.

And that has what to do with France? Oh wait, nothing. Off-topic yet again.

Umm, I never said I was better than the French. I don't know what your problem is, but random insults don't help your cause.

This whole thread is just completely off-topic. I'd be surprised if more that five replies had anything to do with the topic. Do we really need 10 pages to discuss JavaFox's point? It really wasn't complicated, yet most people just resort to America bashing and attempt to avoid the question. It's sad, it really is.

CherryPopper

Personally i think America needs a little more bashing... maybe at some point it may help them to actually listen.

bluelight

NOBODY CALLS ME A MORON!!


That is all im answering you.Anyway everything you say as reply is irrelevant and is in no way a reply to my post.

And ti will report your post to one of the mods.

Got it?


Bluelight

bluelight

Also ...i would like to have an explaination as to why....

you think you have the right to call me a moron?? And i also want an excuse.

Im waiting.


Bluelight

ToshiroOC

Well, guess what Malus? You aren't going to be resorting to name calling again, ok? Personal attacks are not tolerated on this board, and if you would be kind enough to not violate the rules again, there won't be a problem. You are welcome to insult people's beliefs by refuting them, but you aren't welcome to insult the person themself. Bluelight and Malus, both of you please don't keep this in this thread - if you have further commentary, for me or for each other, keep it to PM.

Falstaff

Malus, refutation is the only viable method of answering criticism, assuming you use logic. If you continue insulting fellow members, you tread on thin ice. Perhaps you might find the Flaming War zone a more suitable place to conduct personal attacks, there, no one cares, and I know a little Troll that would love to trade insults..I think the courageouos thing would be to stick to the subject or preface your remarks with your intentions to change the direction of the thread. In addition, the French people are more like the average american for the most part. I have no problem directing my criticism at the French government or the French Foreign Minister-Villipen, he certainly seems to be worthy of scrutiny. I think the French Government might lose some prestige after the entire IRAQI affair is overwith. There was a time, not so long ago, when previous administrations tolerated Frances diplomatic excesses and they tolerated ours as well. I suppose the honeymoon is over, ha ha..

raid517

Well Malus keeps complaining that the thread is off topic. But we have to remember what this topic is supposed to be. Basically it seeks to lump the whole French nation and everyone in it together and then it caricatures them as though they were all of of a single body and a single mindset. It takes away the ability of ordinary French people to think and act in an individual way and then makes basic assumptions about what French people are like, what they think, what they feel etc. Then it seeks to devalue them by saying all French people have low moral standards. Does this remind you of anything? Well Hitler did more or less exactly the same thing with the Jews during the war, including using exactly the same kind of malicious, spiteful cartoons that some Americans have been posting here. And then Malus says that we must ignore the selfishness of America and only focus on the selfishness of the French - as though it were somehow possible to call some other country selfish despite the US having engaged in many more selfish acts through the years. Where I come from we are taught not to believe in double standards, that if you act selfishly you can't go around calling others selfish. All Americans are looking for is a scapegoat, someone to blame for the past 12 years, for the security failures of 9/11, for everything they can think of. Just so long as they never have to look to themselves, or consider the possibility that it might be because of some of the things they have done wrong.

Q

raid517

Its pretty odd though, the French are staunch Conservatives (with a capital C). They belive exactly as the Americans believe. The only thing is they believe the same things about France and Europe as many Americans believe about America. Which is where the conflict emerges. It rather demonstrates the idea very well that the world could never work effectively if it were dominated by far right wing nationalist conservative types.

Nuts..

Q

Falstaff

I can still recall, from my history class, the story of the French involvement in the American Revolution, without them, doubtless the tide would have turned in Englands favor, and we would have evolved into another jewel in the crown (so to speak). I also recall the Statue of Liberty, a gift from France, It wasn't that long ago that our relations with the French were remarkably better than they are now, but you know what, whether we share wine, shake hands or chase each other's women, we have always picked on each other. I agree that the French are selfish and self centered diplomaticaly, but it's all sour grapes. As the world gets smaller and smaller, we bump elbows with the French all the time overseas. We have common interests all over the middle east, After all the name calling and indignant remarks on both sides, we will have to rely on the French and they upon us....

bluelight

Well.....ill be waiting...nobody calls me a moron without giving me an excuse.

Simple.

Bluelight

bluelight

Man i read this post again....and i see your comments about my grammatics and phrasing....You are pathetic...

No im not raised in the empire...i do not speak the language of the empire...

maybe you should start schools all over the world so that everybody talks perfect english in the future in the

Empire of Amerika....delibrate misspelling there...see?...Amerika.







You no longer exist on this board as far as im concerned.

Bluelight

Falstaff

I think Bluelight has a right to be upset, name calling seems be the norm for the uninformed, If this behaviour continues I will damage the spirit of these debates. On a lighter note, I listen to National Public Radio today and speaker Clay Jenkinson brought some interesting points to light:

Jenkinson’s Jeffersonian Principles
for Reconciliation of the Iraq Crisis
In the program on Iraq with Janie Guill, Clay Jenkinson offered eight suggestions for resolution of the Iraq crisis and for the future role of the United States in the world:
1. Give the United Nations two years to solve the problem. If the United Nations cannot solve the problem in two years, the United States is out forever. Although there will be no unilateral action, the U.S. will keep the pressure on the U.N.
2. Withdraw our troops within six months from the Saudi Arabian holy land.
3. Press the Israelis – five years to establish a two-state entity in the territory now controlled by Israel – an Israeli state and and a Palestinian state.
4. Launch a fifteen-year Manhatten-like program to make the United States independent of Middle Eastern oil.
5. Establish a blue-ribbon panel with representatives from around the world to discuss all of the United States relationships with other countries, asking such questions as "Is the U.S. aligned with the aspirations of the citizens of the country?" Is the U.S. in line with Jeffersonian principles of self-determination in our policy to specific countries? It's quite possible that many of our relationships involve the U.S. propping up regimes not committed to reflecting the will and values of the people they govern.
6. Create a global citizen fellowship program, like the Marshall Fellowships or the Rhodes Scholarships – a program for 100 young people to study global citizenship and responsibility. We of the United St