France -- Its Selfishness Knows No Bounds

Smoothdrive

It's the educational system Blue..selling bad things like good acts We get tought Holland was a world power, trading all over the world, founding New York, kicking Spanish and Enlish butt in sea battles, being the commercial centre of the world. amongst others..

and of course part of this is true..but they leave out the fact that we were pirates, slave traders and mass scale slave abusers as well. It's not without reason that in South Africa they spoke sort of ancient Dutch and that this was the country that had apartheid (which is a Dutch word by the way) untill recent.

bluelight

Yeah you are right.We all have history that isnt to nice....and....whatever happened in America...in 1700,1800 etc etc....was performed by Europeans....So the talk of who did what and which nation is responsalke for what is pretty useless in a long perspective...


Bluelight

The_Neon_Cowboy

"Car backfires in france whole country surrenders" -jay leno

had to care this verry funny news paper headline from the jay leno show last night....sorry had to repeat it.......

raid517

Well Smoothdrive the French may be arrogant (in their own way) but they have made some fantastic contributions to history, through things such as art, philosophy, mathematics and science. Indeed it is fair to say that without the contributions the French have made, the world as we know it would still be living in the dark ages. We owe them at least a debt of gratitude and the respect they deserve for this. I personally would gain far more pleasure any day sitting in the sunshine on the banks of the river Seine in Paris drinking fine wine and reading Voltaire, than I ever could by going to my local multiplex and munching on a bunch of greasy hamburgers and watching a never ending stream of Rambo type Hollywood blockbusters. I am not saying that there are not good things in America. There are plenty of these. But too many Americans seem far quick to abandon their heritage. Its a bitch I'm sure for some Americans to realise that Voltaire and other French philosophers were behind some of the founding principals that led to the development of the American constitution. It was these French ideas (and those of John Locke) that were universally adopted by the fledgling American political elite and are now ardently being claimed to be so unique and distinct from those of any other race.

At least in Europe we remember our heritage; we remember where we came from and what made us what we are. We do not forget to be thankful to those who helped us and who enabled us to become who we are. Our memories are not short and fleeting. We have 2.5 thousand years of history behind us; whereas the US has about 2.5 hundred. We do not need to invent superheroes as a substitute for our history, we have halls full of heroes; cultural, scientific, technological, artistic, military - all of which America has benefited from. Without all of these achievements, America would still very likely still belong to the native Americans - and the industrial and technological might of which she is so proud, would never have come to pass. Europe has very good reason to be proud - and only asks America to remember her roots and who her true friends in the world are. Sadly it seems this memory (at least with this administration) is rapidly beginning to fade.

If that is the case, then so be it. Europe has seen many great Empires rise and fall; we are patient and able to work on a time scale of aeons. We have been around for thousands of years, since as far back as the Greeks - and we will be around for many thousands more. We will wait patiently and play the long game - and in time I am certain America will come to realise that she truly cannot exist alone in this world. When that day comes, I feel certain that society and civilisation in this world, will have taken a huge leap forward.

Sadly though many people may have to die before now and then, as Europe has only recently in its history realised the need to work together if we and the world are to survive. America may take an equally long time before she comes to realise this too.

Q

Smoothdrive

Well Raid i must say you made a nice story..

However i fail to see your stating "we this" "we that" ..i say "we did nothing"
I am not responsible for, neither can i take credit for anything that my country might have done once upon a time. I fail to see why any American should be proud of what his country did or can do and i also fail to see why French, Brits, Italians or whoever can be proud of what someone from their country did in the past..

You can be proud of your country..but you can never assume that YOU are special because you come from that country.

The French are not nicer people because hundreds of years ago some French dude invented something..French where pigs abusing their own poor people as well..not for nothing they slaughtered their own royalty ages ago.

I too am grateful for many inventions or philosophies that originated in France..but that does not meen i have to be thankful to the French..if those things would not have come from France i guarentee you that someone else would have thought of them sooner or later.

Dutch founded New York..does that mean every New Yorker has to be thankfull to me ?? no way

My dad could be a nobel price winner but that does not meen that I can not be a total @$$..

The French have done great things in the past..yes i agree..but todays French are arrogant and feel superiour to foreigners. Todays French government acts as if France is a world power and they use their veto in the UN selfishly. No one would even care what France thinks if it wasn't for their veto right..

As for your general "we remember" well i can not agree..Ceaser, Napoleon, Hitler all dominated Europe at one time..this does not affect my thinking one way of the other..how could it ?? i wasn't there..i didn't experience it..no way that would make me better than any American who also didn't experience it.

bluelight

Well they will probably lay a veto togheter with Russia and Germnany in spite of what ...big badass USA

dictates....

so i figure they ...do have guts..that some others lack.


Bluelight

bluelight

Qoute Smooth

The French have done great things in the past..yes i agree..but todays French are arrogant and feel superiour to foreigners. Todays French government acts as if France is a world power and they use their veto in the UN selfishly. No one would even care what France thinks if it wasn't for their veto right



Well my man.....they are a superpower.......


They arecboth financially and military stronger than most other European countries except for Britain maybe... and ceratainly stronger than Holland and Sweden togheter....

They also have.......nukes....big fat ones....and that paired with economy...technology...is what counts..

Im having a hard time understanding your problem...with the "power" of France" which you dont accept..while on tjhe other hand...you do...accept anything American...

Its not logic...
They are both dealing in power...so in that sense both are just as bad.


Bluelight

The_Neon_Cowboy

oh yea the a super power mabe in europe but not from the world's standpoint... anyways refuseing to protect turkey in a iraq war becouse of thier own selfishness is terrable......



Turkish parliment, oh yea such a big message it failed in parliment by only 3 votes! thats very very close in any book...........

UberLord

How many nuclear missiles would you like France to drop on your head until you admit they're a super-power.

[quote]
.. anyways refuseing to protect turkey in a iraq war becouse of thier own selfishness is terrable......
[/quote

Yeah - it's just so terrible that they're taking steps to try and avoid war which is a good thing.

Falstaff

France has always been a powerful military force, but it seems that the military is stricken by their own government.

raid517

Well you miss the point Smoothdrive. You fall right into the trap. Because up until now this has ALL been about us and them. If you want to read back a little you will see a lot of Americans boasting about how great everything they did in the past was. The point I was making is that anyone could play that game. However you take it too far when you say that if these true French heroes had never thought of these things 'then somebody else would have'. An imbecile might argue this, or a child with no conception of history, but to say the work of intellectual giants such as Cauchy, Laplace, Pascal, Poisson, or of great philosophers such as Pascal, Rousseau, Voltaire or of the great artists such as Poussin, Watteau, Manet and of many others could all have been produced as though 'by simple chance', like a bunch of chimpanzees being sat down at a typewriter and told to write a masterpiece, is plainly preposterous.

Just because you do not acknowledge such works, or consider them significant in your reasoning does not mean that arguments that include them are devoid of significance. It is in fact your reasoning that is intellectually impoverished for your lack of understanding of them. Just because they are old does not make them any less relevant. It was these ideas and discoveries that helped to found a significant part of the world in which we all now live. But my guess is that you are young and that as time progresses you will gain a fuller understanding and appreciation of the contributions these people have made.

So ok we have all made mistakes, I think this was covered in a previous debate where we actually got some Americans to admit they had made mistakes too. We all agreed we were fairly equal in that regard. It does not make the French any more or less arrogant than the Americans, or anyone else any more or less arrogant than anyone else for that matter - just because human beings occasionally do some horrible things. Indeed if anything it makes everyone who denies this, appear even more arrogant. I don't think (at least I hope) that's what anyone is doing here.

But if you want to argue who is the best at what, or who's moral position is preferable to another, or who is more or less selfish or arrogant than each other, I will always argue against it whenever it is in my power stand up and point out the absurdity of such arguments. They are vane, meaningless and empty. If you want to argue in their favour then this serves to do no more than belittle you, rather than the people you are attempting to belittle.

We each have validity in this world, no more no less, we are also each equally capable of ignorance and arrogance. Threads with titles such as this are I think ample evidence of this fact. Rather than debate our differences and recognise our similarities, they seek to belittle, divide and deride those that do not agree with the respective posters position. They classify whole nations and groups of people under a single banner, as though people in these countries were not able to think on an individual basis, and dehumanise them by using terms such as the Germans, the French, The Anti-Americans.

But plainly this is a very narrow minded and really quite spiteful perspective. It refuses to treat people on an equal basis, it refuses peoples right to disagree, it refuses people's rights to individuality and personal intellectual liberty. Even if those people who disagree with war are wrong, I will still stand with them to defend these rights. To me Liberty is more than just a word, it is a real and living entity - and one that too many of my ancestors have fought and died for in an effort to achieve. I will not see this thrown away virtually overnight (no matter how dearly some here may wish it) simply in pursuit of some short term political and/or economic expediency. In this I am fully with the French. And so when you ask me do I think its wise to forget history, or can we really just ignore the need for diplomacy and peaceful resolutions to conflict? I too will stand up and say, non! I still doubt the French Govenments motives are wholly admirable, but then again, who's is? The French people and the French govenment are not the same thing. And it is the French people who retain my deep and abiding respect.

Q

raid517

Hello Jeff, nice to see you back again.

Q

bluelight

Yeah and why dont you start a campaign against Turkey as you did against Germany or France......

Well ill tell you why......Because it would utterly piss the other muslim naton off if you did....and...thjat would not be so good for you would it??!!

So we wont see any "funny" comic images where French and germans are portrayed as Nazis in american media as was tnhe case a couple of weeks ago.


That is the level at which you are swimminhg right now.












And superpower..........We all know that.......Big badass......USA...is ....THE...superpower...you dont need to tell us..




Bluelight

GOG

Please define "terrorism". As I see it, driving people away from their homes with bulldozers and killing children with live ammo is also a kind of terrorism. Israel is not your ally, they are more like a knee dog to you. You get a fixed spot in the middle east and the Israelis can continue to kill children and making people homeless.

JavaFox

Why don't YOU define terrorism? If you can concoct a definition by which Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad are NOT terrorist groups, I'd want to hear it. If not, my point stands.

merry

It really wasn't his point, Java. Yes, the Hamas etc. ARE terrorists. If you want to fight specific terrorist organizations, anything works (that you find acceptable), if you plan to fight terrorism in general, you can't just through bombs regardless of who they kill - this will make a terrorist out of you.

raid517

Were the Israelis terrorists when they used more or less exactly the same tactics against British occupation in the late 1940's? I bet you will say no, that they were really "freedom fighters". Well what's so different this time round? Palestine is occupied by the Israelis and the Palestinians rise up against this in their own territories. Are they not allowed to defend their land and liberty in the same way the Jewish people did against the British? What makes one a terrorist and another a "freedom fighter"? If you really are so cock sure, perhaps you should phone your government and tell them, because they seem to have genuine trouble with this definition too. Which I expect is why they have resisted any UN conventions tabled over the last 50 years on terrorism that gave any legal definition to the term 'terrorism' or what it entailed, since this might mean that the US' support, both financially and militarily for many guerrilla groups around the world could often also be described as support for terrorism under such conventions. The only difference here is that your government calls it 'low intensity warfare' - though by any other reasonable standards it would still be considered as terrorism. Terrorism is simply defined it seems by which side you choose to be on - and whether ultimately they win the war or not.

Smoothdrive

Aren't terrorists defined by the outcome of the conflict ? The winning side will be the heroes and the loosers will be the terrorists ..


@Raid..it is common knowledge that great inventions or philsophies are hardly unique..it's more a question of who comes first (or who takes the credit first) than a matter of who get's the unique tought and actually bothers to do something with it (and has the capability to do so ) a simple pessant in 1600 might have had a tought that would have changed history..however he would never have been able to publish it or let the world know another way... therefore it was lost. It is the combination of having or hearing the tought and having the right connections, skills money or status to do something with it...like your romantic approach but unfortunatelly that's not the way the world works now or has ever worked.

People like Einstein for instance are great minds indeed..but if he would not have had the change to study or work the way he did due to financial, social or geographical situation than we would never have heard of him an someone else would have done his work...i believe more genius is lost than exposed in history.

About arrogance & countries, i do not fall into any trap.my viewpoint is the same for US as for European countries.

Fell of my chair laughing when someone stated "France is a world-power because they have nukes"..have we come to this point ? you are a world power when you can terrorise the world with dreadfull weapons ??

Iraq is a super-power if you measure it up like that..they have WMD's and can terrorise the entire region.is Iraq the Arabian super-power ?

Oh dear..why even bother saving a world like that..

France is not a superpower, not on World level, not even on European level..anyone who disagrees better tell me what France does so right for Europe or the world that we would have to respect it as a superpower... Size and weapons do not make a superpower imo. Economical or political they are no superpower..they're just a big European country with an even bigger ego.

bluelight

To me this sounds very much like the thing going on between Noraway and Sweden...in which both parties keep an unhealthy "competition" about which one is meanest and most "badass"...ususally it is kept on "comic"level where jhokes are traded between the countries that are slightly offending..but sometimes shows a much nastier face.

I know for sure the same thing exists between France and Belgium.....And...also between England and France...Etc etc...ususally it is harmless competition that means little.



Btw....Being a superpower is not about doing well it is merely a question of having power and the means to maintain it.

Usa has it Russia..China..Britain...and France has it...if they are good or not...isnt relevant to the issue.They have power.That is what is relevant.

If...the EU becomes a full reality....France and Britain will loose its "superpower status"..to the EU which will hold it instead...meaning that Eu will be a superpower even more badass that France and Britain togheter...

For whatever good it may bee???

BlueLight




Bluelight

Smoothdrive

Oh i see good there..a combined EU power could match the US..a lot better than the current devided countries at least.

And no..we do not do powerstrugles with France, Uk or whoever..I just feel on personal title that France, UK, Germany and those kind of countries are overrated when it comes to "power" We did not form EU, Nato, UN to be thinking in the lines of countries being a power..it's the coalition that is the power...or should be at least..it's a shame there is no equal partnership in the coalitions..there's too many veto's flying around based on size of a country an historical facts...i say loose the veto's and go for democracy.

GOG

I totally agree with you

JavaFox