France -- Its Selfishness Knows No Bounds

bluelight

I have not insulted you.


You have insulted me.Personally...in several ways.


I HAVE NOT USED INSULTING JUDGEMENTS ABOUT YOU.YOU HAVE ABOUT ME.

IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM SORTING OUT THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN YOUR OWN PERSON AND YOUR CURRENT AND PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS POLITICS THEN I SUGGEST YOU CONSULT SOMEONE ABOUT IT...........







Bluelight

Malus

You senselessly bashed America. I am offended because I am American. Is there anymore to say? Honestly, I resent the fact that I'm constantly referred to as selfish, stupid, ignorant, etc. If I can't call anyone else that, then this is just one big hypocrisy.

Malus

The problem is more that you completely ignored the discussion about the French and immediately bashed America! If you want to compare the two, that's fine. However, you just completely ignored the French and talked about America. A comparison or discussion of the two countries should actually involve the two countries, not just America.

raid517

Oh come on now, when did anybody directly refer to you in those terms? I think a reference was made to a certain mind set. If you judged yourself to be a part of that mindset, then that is pretty much your own problem. Why else would you take it on board in such a personal way?

Q

raid517

Dude I have spent a long time doing exactly that. Many times I have refered to the French as selfish, not just on this thread but on many others too. I just find it impossible to listen to Americans suggesting this or that country/individual/international organisation is selfish, simply because they don't agree with republican party policies, without telling them to look in the mirror first.

In the UK we have a phrse that say's that the pot shouldn't call the kettle black and really that is exactly what you are doing. When you are innocent of all sins, or in this instance of all similar sins, then maybe you can feel free to start throwing stones. Until then tend to your own shortcommings first.

Q

bluelight

Well the silence ius total about wheter if is ok to call peole morons....so i take it that


i can continually call anyone i like a moron in the future.


Thanks for clarifying this.


Bluelight

JavaFox

No, actually, you can't

bluelight

But it is ok for Malus?!


Bluelight

JavaFox

No, it isn't. If you recall correctly, you'll see that my colleague, Toshiro, already addressed Malus.

bluelight

Ok.

Bluelight

JavaFox

Much appreciated. If you have any other questions, the rules can be found here.

The_Neon_Cowboy

raid517

Boy you really like your cartoons Neon don't you? Its interesting isn't it that often the govenment can have a segment of the population so well trained, that when they aren't doing a good enough job of the propaganda themselves, they will often be able to depend on a certain idiot factor to go out and create their own...

Useful perhaps to some, but on the bigger scale of things, pretty much meaningless...

Q

raid517

Source: New York Times.

There something like 10 other companies connected with President Bush's presidential campaign. So far at least 4 of these stand to gain to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars if the war in Iraq is sucessful. (In this case sucess means fast and cheap). Let's just see when this is all over how many others join the fold. (As we speak Merck is vying for contracts to proved health services and medicines to the Iraqi people - and they are doing so in the absence of any competing contracters whatsover). All other contracts will in any case be awarded to exclusively American companies. If that's not selfishness, then what is?

All very cosey if you ask me.

Q

Shadowmaster

Look at the following web page, but be aware the pictures are very strong.
http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/thisiswar/

Are these pictures honourful for a modern civilization ? I think not. And the politics of the americans are a fallback in the time of despotism. Th american foreign politics is only for the americans regardless of the international community.


/sarcasm on
Every empire, which has existed in the history (Spain, Greece etc.) is now a very nice country for holidays.
So there is hope for america to be peaceful sometimes somewhere.
/sarcasm off

By the way. The german law prohibits every kind of an attack war. This law has been accepted after the second world war from the americans, the british, the french man and the russians. (german basic law §26 and german penal code §80 and §80a)

Falstaff

They refer to their military as a self defense force too..and depend on our support if threatened by nieghbors under the "STATUS OF FORCES AGREEMENT", but they like the Germans have deadly weapons and extremely well trained pilots and sailors...

Falstaff

>
> This one is definitely NOT tongue in cheek. Sig, the author, was
a teen-aged Marine
>who marched and fought as a rifleman to and from the Chosin
reservoir in Korea in 1950. He switched to the Army, and served as a Special Forces officer in Vietnam. After Vietnam he joined the CIA, and went back to Korea. He's been there, done it, and has some specific thoughts on countries that don't "like" us. If you aren't interested in the ramblings of
>an old man, please delete now. If you're still there, pull up a
chair and listen. Is there anyone else out there who's sick and tired of all the
polls being taken in foreign countries as to whether or not they "like" us? The last time I looked, the word "like" had nothing to do with foreign policy. I prefer 'respect' or 'fear'. They worked for Rome, which civilized and kept the peace in the known world a hell of a lot longer than our puny two centuries-plus.

I see a left-wing German got elected to office recently by campaigning against the foreign policyof the United States. Yeah, that's what I want, to be lectured about war and being a "good neighbor" by a German. Their head honcho said they wouldn't take part in a war against Iraq. Kind of nice, to see them taking a pass >on a war once in while. Perhaps we needed to have the word "World" in front of War. I think it's time to bring our boys home from Germany. Outside of the money we'd save, we'd make the Germans "like" us a lot more, after they
started paying the bills for their own defense.
Last time I checked, France isn't too fond of us either. They sort
of liked us back on June 6th, 1944, though, didn't they? If you don't think so, see how nicely they take care of the enormous American cemeteries up above the Normandy beaches. For those of you who've studied history, we also have a few cemeteries in places like Belleau Woods and Chateau, Thierry also. For those of you who haven't studied it, that was from World War One, the first time Europe screwed up and we bailed out the French. That's where the US Marines got the title 'Devil Dogs' or, if you still care about what the Germans think, "Teufelhunde". I hope I spelled that right; sure wouldn't want to offend anyone, least of
all a German.

Come to think of it, when Europe couldn't take care of their Bosnian
problem recently, guess who had to help out there also. Last time I checked, our kids are still there. I sort of remember they said they would be out in a year. Gee, how time flies when you're having fun.
Now we hear that the South Koreans aren't too happy with us
either. They "liked" us a lot
better, of course, in June, 1950. It took more than 50,000
Americans killed in Korea to help give them the lifestyle they currently enjoy, but then who's counting? I think it's also time to bring the boys home from there. There are about 37,000 young Americans on the DMZ separating the South Koreans from their "brothers" up North. Maybe if we leave, they can begin to participate in the "good life" that North Korea currently enjoys. Uh huh.

Sure. I also understand that a good portion of the Arab/Moslem
world now doesn't "like" us either. Did anyone ever sit down and determine what we would have to do to get them to like us? Ask them what they would like us to do. Die? Commit ritual suicide? Bend over?
Maybe we should follow the advice of our dimwitted, dullest knife
in the drawer, Senator Patty Murray, and build more roads, hospitals, day care centers, and orphanages like Osama bin Laden does. What with all the orphans Osama has created, the least he can do is build some places to put them. Senator Murray says if we would only "emulate"Osama, the Arab world would love us. Sorry Patty; in addition to the fact that we already do all of those
things around the world and have been doing them for over sixty
years, I don't take public transportation, and I certainly wouldn't take it with a bomb strapped to the guy next to me.


>Don't get me wrong: I'm not in favor of going to war. Been there,
done that. Several times,
>in fact. But I think we ought to have some polls in this country
about other countries, and see if we "like"
>THEM. Problem is, if you listed the countries, not only wouldn't
the average American know if he liked them or not, he
>wouldn't be able to find them. If we're supposed to worry about
them, how about them worrying about us?
>
> We were nice to the North Koreans in 1994, as we followed the
policies of Neville Clinton. And it seemed to work; they didn't
>re-start nuclear weapons program for a whole year or so. In the
meantime, we fed them when they were starving, and put oil in their
>stoves when they were freezing.

> In a recent visit to Norway, I engaged in a really fun debate with
my cousin's son, a student at a Norwegian University. I was
>lectured to by this thankless squirt about the American "Empire",
and scolded about dropping the atomic bomb on the Japanese. I
>reminded him that empires usually keep the stuff they take; we
don't, and back in 1945 most Norwegians thought dropping ANY kind of bomb
onGermany or Japan was a good idea. I also reminded him that my uncle, his
grandfather, and others in our family spent a significant time in
Sachsenhausen concentration camp, courtesy of the Germans, and they didn't
all survive. I further reminded him that if it wasn't for the "American
Empire" he would probably be speaking German or Russian.
>
> Sorry about the rambling, but I just took an unofficial poll here
at our house, and we don't seem to like anyone.
>
> "We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the
night to visit violence
>on those who would harm us."


George Orwell.

This quote has made the rounds, be he is a member of our special club and I respect his opinion....think what you will, but the clock is ticking, and time is running out for Saddam....

raid517

Oh but Jeff I do get tired of the propaganda. I think Europe has been pretty good on its support for US policies over the last 60 years. Nato was not an entirely useless institution - or at least every American administration throughout the duration of the cold war seemed to find it very useful. As for America not keeping hold of military acquisitions, then I would simply ask you to take a look at a map of American Military bases around the world. You will see that in every place and in every conflict America has ever been involved in, she has left military bases behind so that she can continue to exert influence over the local population. The fact that some of these bases are relatively small is of no consequence (though several are anything but small) as this is exactly the same way the Romans conducted affairs; namely by leaving small garrisons behind to remind the population of American military might and then by persuading the local leaders of the monetary and material benefits of co-operation. The only practical difference is that the Romans called it an 'Empire', while you do not.

As for the Bosnian situation, I remember that only too well. Indeed I almost needed to go for counselling after seeing some of those horrific images on TV. But remember it took 5 years of seeing these images before politicians acted to do anything - and indeed it was only public opinion and public revulsion that inspired them to act at all. Having said this it is to Tony Blair's eternal credit that in the run up to his election in 1997 he was prepared to commit virtually the entire strength of the British army to resolving this problem - and it was only after he was elected that anyone bothered to do anything. (Indeed that as partly why he was elected in the UK because he promised to act).

And again you confuse mistrust of this current Republican party's regional ambitions, with a dislike of America. Just because we have fallen out over a spat with some small time regional dictator doesn't mean we wouldn't be there if the shit ever really did hit the fan. Case and point the French said that if Saddam ever did use WMD, they would personally seek to fry his ass.

Really what people mistrust and fear is this 'blueprint for a new American century', because in here it actually states American policy makers ambitions to actively seek to keep its partners economically and militarily weak. It is hardly surprising that there are so few people in the world rushing to sign up to this plan.

Q

Falstaff

Actually, I feel that U.S. foriegn policy has become more surreal than it was say 50 years ago. I still recall how Alistair Cooke, and noted British writer felt about such matters as the failure of the League of Nations and the U.N. I was always dissapointed about diplomatic faliures when the U.N. if allowed to become greater than the sum of its parts, would intercede on behalf of world peace, and make wars illegal...
I still feel that way..I recieved my education overseas, and my teachers were from my Host nation, they all spoke glowingly about the United Nations, and I came to expect that it's powers was somewhat greater than perhaps it had a right to be, especially after the meeting at Yalta between Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt. I honestly thought it was the role of the U.N. to step in as the "world policemen" not us....but I was wrong...
I am equally dissapointed with 4 of our presidents and their foriegn policy, I believe our arsenal of nuclear weapons empowered these men to overextend many of our privileges in diplomacy, i.e.:

DOING WHAT WE WANT..

SAYING WHAT WE WANT..

INVADING WHOMEVER WE WANT..

AND TAKING WHAT WE WANT..

AND SELECTIVELY DETERMINING WHICH COUNTRY IS A THREAT TO WORLD PEACE..

Now I know this sounds sophmoric and unrealistic from the american point of view, but it has always been based on my perceptions I gained when I was a teenager..

As far as keeping our neighbors weak, well this is true, we have managed to hold all the cards carefully to our chests the world over..

I am aware about the analogy to "PAX ROMANA" I used PAX AMERICANA in some of my first threads, ha ha...

I would like go further and use our current military and political situation to a illustrate a point that you made regarding small bases in former communist satelites, by mentioning the futility of HADRIANS WALL.

I recall my history, and I believe that it became a futile effort to extend the boundries of ROME and reinforce the foriegn policy of the times, which was "trade and swords", but I might be mistaken...

Hadrians wall was eventually absorbed into the culture of England, it's legions eventually absorbed into the local populace and eventually forgotten by ROME, as it's borders were attacked in the EAST...

What do you think??

Dem2k

Well most British people have gripes with the french during the Falklands war. While the British forces were trying to regain control of the country, we were having to deal with the Argentinean Forces. Who's missiles sunk lots of our navel force. Now these missiles were supplied by the french . Who was supposedly a EU nation while at the time was meant to be on our side.

But since that is all done and dusted. Our relationship with France is very good I understand .

Also on a side note. The president of France is the only one in the UN to actually of met Saddam face to face. This may explain France's rash notions . Or so thats what Sky-News broadcasts.

Though the UK has had a tremendously large amount of arguments converted into wars, in our history. The most historic thing IMHO is when Hitler asked our government to join forces with the Axis . Of course our government rejected this , but it indeed shows that our nation stuck a big thorn in the dictators plans. My gripe is that we didn't act fast enough to save millions of inocents in the Poland.

Now back to topic.

IMO we cannot leave Iraq as it is. It needs change. It would of been great day if every nation in the UN made the same goal but that wasn't to be. The UN won't die though. But it has been damaged. I have no views on why France would vito any proposal of war, as I have no clue. Maybe a French forum member can shed some insight on this?

raid517

Well I don't know about Hadrian’s Wall Jeff. All I know is that it was a representation of the furthest reaches of Roman power. Try as they might the Romans could never quite defeat the Northern races of this Island. (I'm not sure if it’s fair to call them Scots, as Picts is probably more accurate). But as is the case in all such matters, enmity never really hindered trade. So yes I expect it’s true that even then swords were sold to the enemy. Who knows? All I do know is it’s about time people started learning the lessons of history. Some people however only seem to have a memory that extends as far back as the last presidential speech.

As for being disappointed about the UN, what is there to be disappointed about? The UN is made up of individual members, it has no standing army of its own (nor would many conservatives in the US want it to), and all it is able to do is express the will of its members. If the will to act isn't there then the UN is powerless to do anything - other than take the blame for the inaction of its members. What you could say is that you are disappointed at our individual governments level of commitment to the UN, but this is very much a two way sword, because a high proportion of those wars you speak of either were inspired by, or supported by the US. Clearly on such occasions when inaction suited US interests the veto was used in order to prevent the UN from being able to do anything to prevent these conflicts.

This is just a crude exercise in deflection. Whenever politicians screw up they always and invariably look for someone else to blame. If they can create a demon, be it the French, or the UN or whatever and whip up enough public distain, this usually serves their purposes very nicely indeed. It is a very old trick, and it seems people are only too willing to still fall for it.

Well... like I said... Those who ignore the lessons of history place everyone in deadly peril. I trust our current leaders are more aware of history than they seem...

Q

Falstaff