Human Shield Group is Shameful

raid517

Erm... What? What are you talking about Blue? Who's even talking to you? Dude quit thinking absolutly everyone is criticizing what you are saying. Do you think someone here is calling you a human shield? Lol... Well who knows maybe you are... But if you are, your definately in the wrong place. I would think being a human shield while staying in Scandanavia was a pretty safe bet.

Whatever... Chill out dude... I swear sometimes I think if you were a dog, you might try to bite your own butt.

Q

bluelight

Yeah course you are right mate.....second time i do this to you.Im to fast....and to trigger happy...

Read your post again and understood.Although...i should have understood at once by reading by who it was posted......;-)


I got the post as something like this.....

If all of us that opposes somewhat to what is happening would be Human shields we would make fools of ourselves...and...

I never thought the idea of Human shields is a very bright idea to use in Bagdad.

Excuse me.

Bluey the butt biter :-)

Frodo301

But where do you send them to after they are expatriated? Somehow I doubt Iraq is going to want them back. If you are going to call for an act of treason, if that is indeed what I think your original post was indicating then the punishment preferred for acts of treason in recent years would be imprisonment.

raid517

Lol whether JF thinks they should be 'fried' or not, that's probably what's going to happen. If there's any legitimate military targets, I doubt any peace protestors will be able to do anything to stop them from being hit. Yeah go on, boot out, jail, deamonise and/or persecute a bunch of harmless peace lovers and religeous types and see how much this enhances your reputation in the world.

Hey I even have an idea for you guys (I'm sure you will like this one). Why not just lock them up with all of those other political undesirables at Guantanamo Bay? (Who incidentally you have still forgotten to charge with any criminal offense). I'm sure they would add nicely to your now ever swelling ranks of political prisoners. (Not political prisoners hu? Well what are they if they then if are not prisoners of war, or ciminals?) I'm sure this will give Amnesty International and other human rights organisations even more reason to love you than they aready do.

So what do you say do I have your support? How does Guantanamo Bay sound to you?

Q

JavaFox

Frodo, they should be apprehended upon re-entry to the United States and tried. If found guilty, we should take away their passports, and offer them a plane ticket to the country of their choice. I'm sure France will take them. Yes, I know it's unorthodox and unrealistic, but that's what I think should happen.

Smoothdrive

I do see the reasoning beyond the "apprehend them on re-entry" bit, also see the "home of the brave" in the HS..but i fail to see the "land of the free" in this..

Frodo301

OK, I understand now. Raid I've even got a better idea then Guantmo, why don't we send them to your house? I'm sure you could continue this and many more debates with them?










Just kidding

bluelight

Well i think you will have to wait until you have declared war dont you??

And..if it is the UN that goes.....then you have no case at all have you??

Bluelight

digitalwanderer

Sorry I ain't been participating in these debates as of late, I'm just a bit overwhelmed by the uselessness of all our arguing when the White House is gonna do what it wants to do anyways.

I don't think the shields are violating any laws until we actually declare war, but their intent don't seem like it's to leave when it starts so I figure them as "questionable"....or more like "cannon fodder" when the bombs start a dropping. I just figure if they want to go there, great; but don't expect it to stop what you know we're planning.

I was just cracking up last night hearing the news about these folks. It seems they went over there thinking they'd be lined up in front of schools, hospitals, & orphanages; but it turns out that they're being put in front of refineries, industries, and military targets. They can either accept Saddam's choices or leave....

I just found it funny as hell that they really expected him to use them for humanitarian purposes...he's using the schools, orphanages, & hospitals as his shield already!

Sorry for all the laughing at the suffering/misery about to happen, but it's either that or I sort of go into a total raving fit over the stupidity of it all.

UberLord

I have no idea if this is treason under UK law - but that's a moot point.
I understand that treason in America results in the Death Penalty.
Tell me, did all of the Confederates swing? No?

So, in the one hand you're saying that they're guilty of treason but on the other hand you don't want them dead?
So in effect you want the law to be broken in this instance? But if you're breaking this law, then how can find them guillty of treason?

If it's treason, then they hang. If they don't hang then it cannot be treason by definition.

I'd also love to know why there weren't any "allied human shields" in the Gulf War 1........

Ya think that just maybe a lot of people think this impending war is completely unjustifyable?

bluelight

They can not be judged as traitors since there is no war at the moment between Usa and Iraq.



And....yes...as far as i remember there were human shields in Iraq last time.Lots of them.





BlueLight

UberLord

We're talking about volunteer human shields from allied countries here (US, UK, etc) not the involuntary Human shields that Saddam propped up.

IIRC there wasn't any volunteer human shields the last time

digitalwanderer

That we KNOW OF....

Dmac43

"I have no idea if this is treason under UK law - but that's a moot point.
I understand that treason in America results in the Death Penalty."

Treason in the United States does not necessarily result in the death penalty, in fact of the last 5 cases of spying and treason, none of the offenders were put to death, though they are serving lengthy prison sentences...

I watched on CNN last evening that many of the so called "Human Shields" are going home citing the possibility of injury or death as their reason.

They seemed to be under the impression that they wouldn't get hurt...

What did they expect? Water ballons at 20 paces?
That a few people with differing opinions standing in front of Saddam would make the powers that be stop what they are doing?

These people have made a choice, now they must live with the consequences...

I am not a proponent of war, but I can clearly see that the Iraqi government is completely dishonest, and will never fully comply with the UN... It amazes me that these people are just now "FINDING" missles and chemical bombs that 2 weeks ago they claimed didn't exist... It's time to ask "What else doesn't exist there in Iraq that could conceivably kill millions of people"?

A bit of common sense tells us that a criminal will always think like a criminal, and no amount of positive thinking on our part will change that..

Saddam is playing the press, the UN, and many of the governments throughout the world,
and it's time people looked past the whole kinder gentler approach to see how demonic this guy really is...

bluelight

Yes there was and i remember it very clearly.I remember the same bleeding discussion about them being bombed or not...and eventually i think they left..

Saddam putting up non voluntarily human shields? As if anyone would bother??..Him putting civilian Iraqìs as "shields"...such stuff dont make the news...so why would he even bother....


Anyway they all are leaving cause they have got the grip of Saddam and he is not letting them do their little peace task as they wish....so they leave.

Calling it treason is ridiculous...


Bluelight

UberLord

Made national news in th UK. Maybe the US doesn't hold foreign citizens in such a high regard.

Thats because he wants to defend his military installations, not his civilian installation

At least we agree on something
I call it standing up for what you believe in

raid517

Lol. Fair enough... At least if they were here they wouldn't be out there in the desert pointlessly risking getting their heads blown off. (Which is the most likely outcome). I would be happy to have them here if it meant saving their lives. Maybe some of you guys would like to see them dead? If so I sure hope you get to see some dead people at some point in your life, then you will know just how nuts it is to joke about it.

Mind you if I did have them here and they started clapping their hands and playing their guitars and singing 'Kumbaya M'lord' etc. I think even I would have to draw a line there. There is only so much of that happy clappy religeous/peacenik crap a normal person can take. So maybe they would have to sleep in my backyard or something...

Even though I support their right to object in whatever way they see fit (so long as they don't take up guns and shoot at anyone, or supply secret information to anyone, I don't think its fair to call them traitors) it still doesn't mean I completely sympathise with their overly optomistic outlook.

But oh well, this is just another one of those 'lets whip up a hanging mob' threads. I think so far, it has served its purpose well.

Q

bluelight

He he he....

Bluey

digitalwanderer

Apparently we don't. And on behalf of all the regular normal folks who live in this country, you have my heartfelt apology.

The exremely psychotic right has kidnapped our government and we're pretty powerless to do jacksh!t about it, but we do feel extremely bad about it too.

JavaFox

Treason can be punished by death, but inasmuch as I don't wholeheartedly believe in the death penalty, I don't support it. I think it's an enormous stretch of logic to call not giving the death penalty "breaking the law."

Dig', I'm sorry, but stop selling your country out. American sources have widely reported on Saddam's use of nonvoluntary shields -- just because you didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen. (DefenseLINK) (CIA) (CBSNews) (WashingtonTimes)

JavaFox

I am also curious as to by what definition Bush can be called an extreme rightist. Under his watch, medical and educational spending has skyrocketed. He has tolerated stem cell research lines. He helped create a large governmental oversight agency called the Office of Homeland Security. You may not like him, but precisely how is he a "extreme rightist?" I'm actually disappointed he hasn't reduced the size of goverment, as rightists claim they will.

UberLord

If the law about treason states the death penalty should be given then it must be given or the law is broken.
It's like breaking the spead limit (treason) and not getting any points on your license (not being given the death penalty)
It's like being found guilty and then telling the judge what punishment you should do instead of the law telling you what punishment you should do.

Hang on - didn't MS just do this in their anti-trust case?

I think your reasoning requires a much larger stretch of logic than mine does - imho

Dmac43

"If the law about treason states the death penalty should be given then it must be given or the law is broken."

hmmm,..... SHOULD .... MUST...... SHOULD....... MUST.......

SHOULD....

Main Entry: should
Pronunciation: sh&d, 'shud
Etymology: Middle English sholde, from Old English sceolde owed, was obliged to, ought to
Date: before 12th century
past ofSHALL
1 -- used in auxiliary function to express condition <if he should leave his father, his father would die -- Gen 44:22 (Revised Standard Version)>
2 -- used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency <'tis commanded I should do so -- Shakespeare> <this is as it should be -- H. L. Savage> <you should brush your teeth after each meal>
3 -- used in auxiliary function to express futurity from a point of view in the past <realized that she should have to do most of her farm work before sunrise -- Ellen Glasgow>
4 -- used in auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected <with an early start, they should be here by noon>
5 -- used in auxiliary function to express a request in a polite manner or to soften direct statement <I should suggest that a guide... is the first essential -- L. D. Reddick>


MUST....
Main Entry: 1must
Pronunciation: m&s(t), 'm&st
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): present & past all persons must
Etymology: Middle English moste, from Old English mOste, past indicative & subjunctive of mOtan to be allowed to, have to; akin to Old High German muozan to be allowed to, have to
Date: before 12th century
verbal auxiliary
1 a : be commanded or requested to <you must stop> b : be urged to : ought by all means to <you must read that book>
2 : be compelled by physical necessity to <man must eat to live> : be required by immediate or future need or purpose to <we must hurry to catch the bus>
3 a : be obliged to : be compelled by social considerations to <I must say you're looking well> b : be required by law, custom, or moral conscience to <we must obey the rules> c : be determined to <if you must go at least wait for me> d : be unreasonably or perversely compelled to <why must you be so stubborn>
4 : be logically inferred or supposed to <it must be time>
5 : be compelled by fate or by natural law to <what must be will be>
6 : was or were presumably certain to : was or were bound to <if he really was there I must have seen him>


Ummm... according to Ms Webster you are mistaken

raid517

I think the point that was made was some Americans apparently increasing mistrust and resentment towards foreigners. Something I can personally testify.