V8VENOM

Is a concept (religion) that limits the collection of knowledge/understanding fundamentally flawed?

What is wrong with saying "I don't know yet and may never know?"

Why are so many people "religious" because of fear?

The sooner humans evolve past the need for religions, the sooner we can get on with life and remove a major excuse for killing each other.

mkk

Few religions are truly negative to gathering of knowledge, and I think that most who do use a religion to suppress their own or others need for understanding of the world around them would probably find another way to do that if the religion was not there. I have no faith of my own but find the correlation between philosophy and religion through history to be an interesting topic. It's easy to see a lot of negative factors in this day, but perhaps the most common conception of religion as a cause for many wars in modern times is really a misconception.

Maddogg6

AMEN... - eh-hem...

While I DO beleive religion WAS needed to exercise our 'moral compasses' and evolve man from barbarianism.. I beleive new modern interpretations of age old texts have now become a source and justification of continued 'segregation' and murder as well as a tool of brainwashing.
Why - becuase if you fight with your neighbors your less likely to orginize and rebel - pretty simple concept Id say - thus why theres STILL mention of religious beleives comming from most ANY political/gov't leader.)

(You see/hear people pointing out in the muslum Kuhran (spelling??) - how killing is wrong - but other parts get inerpreted by extremeists as justification of cleansing the world of 'infidels'.)

More than I need moral guidance - I need society to evolve into more 'logic' based 'belief' systems where there is at least *some* physical proof hinting to the how our universe is operated and our 'after life' destiny - and this magical mumbo jumbo (parting red seas, assention/descention, ideas of sex slaves in heaven or a hell) are 'illogical' and un-provable fates - when the ONLY clear result is pain and death from arguing over such insignificant points - when all along the good 'wholesome' moral messgae get ignored and focus is put on these magical fairy tales.
(Christians focus on Jesus dying on the cross - making this image their 'icon' - instead of an icon representing the messages he was alledged in distributing, as a for instance. - to me is clearly instead a reminder for christians to dis-like the jews)

It just hits me as obvious - many orginized religion have used 'fear of the after life' as a way to manipulate people - and its NOT always necessarily for our best interests - but for the orginizations.... IMHO.

Further - how many time I hear when translating languages 'some words in one language does NOT have an equivelent in another' - makes me wonder if these ancient religious texts were written in in the language presented in modern day. -I KNOW they were'nt written in english...
So if such tesxts are SO important...why havent we been taught the language IT was written in... the circumstances are just sooo 'fishey' - er ... suspect.
The converting everything to other languages just leaves too many oppotunities for error or abuse - thus I take it all with a grain of salt...but try to understand the 'moral' message it *may* contain.

And then take the KNOWN affects when passing stories from person to person/generation to generation, and HOW frequently changes are un-intentionally made.

I see those who rely on religion for their happiness as insecure and full of fear of dying. But I also understand its deeply engrained and a difficult habit to break.

I dont murder..but not becuase I fear the notions religion presents from doing so ...but because I fear the notions our legal system presents. And killing someone for a 'cause' - is no less than murder and is just a way to force your beliefs on to others as well. (defending ones self - when fearing for your 'LIFE' - on the other hand is a completly different thing - but not for fearing of your 'death' - or more to the point - what comes after that)

Now with that said....
If I had a dime for everytime I heard about a rediculous answer given by clergy to questions they couldnt possibly have the answer to (- instead of 'Im not sure' - which makes me loose so much respect for such spouters of crap -) Id be way better off finacially.

I personally have asked this.
'Why does god give people a way of hurting others - when he wants us all to love one another' - All I heard, after back and forth Q&A, which was a circular argument, that ultimately ened at:
'You'll understand when you get older'

Guess what - Im older now and I seem to be further from that answer now than I was then.

Orginized religion seems to have evoloved into more of a club than a belief system - where memebers get access to services non-members are denied. Just some of those services have no accountabilty mechanisms - and very little governing.

NOT to mention how many priest have become alcholics - the pedophilia, hoarding wealth and priceless artworks by the vatican. etc etc.. And the leaders inability to identify theres a problem because making changes would counterdict the long standing 'traditions' so strictly enforced for so long.

Yet It seems few realize how many problems religion creates - as most attention is on how they're the 'moral' leaders here to keep reminding us to be moral...when we have laws now to enforce much of it now. I know I dont need the threat of hell for my prevention... but there are still those that ignore both and commit those 'sins' or break those laws anyway. Something humanity will have to learn to live with I predict.

(sorry, most my intimate experience is in christianity - thus my 'picking' on them)
I dis-agree on this - religion causes segregation in ideals - these ideals are still argued to this day and overflow into policial beleives/policies - (even non-extremist muslums beleive 'infedels' should not be on their 'holy' land - as a for instance. - they just wont kill to eliminate them. - or at least thats my understanding - please correct me on it if youd like with a link to source)

The above IS almost all my opinion and Im entitled to it here. Flame away if you wish. But Ill step away with this last thought....

Our inabilty to prove either way whos religion is *most correct* IS the reason its STILL debated/argued/ and yes - even killed for to this day.

Falstaff

reminds me of a John Lennon song.....
Imagine...

We humans go through the same biological functions as other animals yet we are considered different and superior than all of them. We claim this because we have the unique faculty to understand that we humans have a mission or purpose in life other than to just exist, procreate and die as other living beings do. This mission is provided only by religion. Actually religion provides a lot more than mere discipline to keep peace in society. It gives meaning to the life of human beings. Religion tells what human beings are to achieve besides just completing the biological cycle as Homo sapiens.

Humans live not only to enjoy their life and continue their species but they have a purpose in life as well. No scientist, sociologist or scholar can tell that purpose. What one is expected to do with one’s life can only be explained by a holy person, priest, preacher, prophet or guide. The mission and the path advised to be followed by a devotee is named religion or faith. That is how we have so many religions today.



Discussing the negative aspect of religion, as a cause of hatred and war, it was found that it is politicians who misuse religion, otherwise, there is nothing inherently wrong in the philosophy of religion. Also, politicians split people into nations, ethnic groups, linguistic divisions, regional units, etc., to make people fight with each other. They even divide professional people to create conflicts amongst them. The groups fight for their economic and political benefits.

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V8VENOM

Thats just it -- "purpose" (or mission) how can you find a purpose if you limit where you look and how you look? (stem cell research comes to mind on this one).

Also, why does there need to be a purpose? Isn't life, the living of life, surving life, and learning more about life the purpose?

Faith, ignorance, religion -- how do these help? They don't -- they are concepts left over from a social necessity for survival many many years ago. It implies that our societies within the human race have evolved in radically different intellectual scales.

What I believe in is logic -- I subscribe to is the methodology of discovery as presented by science -- a Theory is exactly that and the goal of science is to disprove as it is to prove -- to always question and find new possible answers and continue on indefinitely. Religions say, this is the way it was, this is what you must do, and in some cases how you must die -- seems very limiting to me and I don't understand (other than brainwashing kids from birth) why anyone would subscribe to such limitations?

Morals are not relevant, they come and go and change over time -- they don't and should not affect the logical pursuit of knowledge. The concept of morals is 100% introduced by religion and is very warped -- American TV, nudity is a major "moral" issue, yet killing and shooting each other is A-Ok on TV -- what is the logic behind that? Just as beating the crap out of each other in a football game is A-Ok on TV. As you can see, the moral card is pretty irrelevant as it follows no logical path and it changes over time and varies within the societies of the human race.

The universe progresses onwards with or without the human race, when galaxies collide, potential life on a massive scale is wiped out to never exist again, but the universe continues on unaffected, uncaring, unconditional. It is so egotistical to think that the human race (a life form with a relatively short history in a cosmic scale) has such a "purpose". Our human race could be wiped out tomorrow by a massive astroid hit (in fact all life on earth almost was many many many years ago) and the universe would gone on and other life forms would appear, evolve, etc. etc.

There are religions, dictators, and other various fanatics that would find it acceptable to destroy the entire human race if "their faith" (or "their vision") is not implemented. Iran, Korea, Russia (who have lost/sold countless nukes over the past decade) and a host of other nations are playing with such weapons just as many other nations did (Cold war) - the only significant difference now is that some of these nations holding these weapons are very much in favor of self extermination in the name of their faith.

If humans can't evolve beyond these religions, I don't see how we'll survive as a race - do you?

Falstaff

now your talking about the duality of man...
the great dichotomy..

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Maddogg6

the need for a 'purpose' in life stems from that insecurity I mentioned before.

'You are significant, we all have a role in gods eyes'...bla bla bla...

Those ideas are meant to prevent some from putting a bullet in their own head. - and to others as 'carreer counseling'.

The reality IS, you cant collect tithe, taxes or sell products to the dead (or un-employed) and if they DIDNT kill at least one 'enemy' first in the name of THEIR cause - is seen as the ultimate waste of a 'pawns' life in the respective parties eyes. - THATS the pupose of 'pupose' - IMO. (our laws and public opinion support this idea)

Now dont get me wrong... I think for many a 'purpose' in life is a great motivational tool - so, its not that I think they are 'wrong' per se... but that one needs to use extreme caution in where they seek and embrace such advice when in a vulnerable state - the evidence of 'occults' (some violent) having an a 'un-expected' influence on otherwise rational people makes me think this in regaurd to advice/counseling.

Jaded ? - maybe.... but it makes 'logical' sense to me.

Flexkill

WAIT!!!! You guys mean ther's no GOD!!!???? OMG why am i here then!!!! I can't just die there must be more.....you guys are scaring me....quit it!

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V8VENOM

Seems to me the purpose should be to survive (as a human race) as long as possible and gather up as much knowledge as possible and just try to figure it all out. Seems like a pretty good and logical purpose to me. Why do we need to invent all kinds of "I am worthy, this is my cause" crap. If people want to feel "worthy" then pick up a book that provides them with the tools of discovery and stop listening to the same rhetoric over and over and over. Go forth and make yourself worthy if that is what you really need -- but I don't see how reading the same religious book over and over and over and over and carrying it with you is really gonna help one discover.

I mean seriously, look at Christians -- the world was created in 7 days, and Adam & Eve -- I mean really, come ON! Please! Haven't we evolved beyond this story yet? When these things are pointed out to Christians, they fall back on well a day wasn't really "a day" it was a "God day" and viola, we have "open to interpretation" aka believe what your mind can handle so long as God is somewhere in the picture. It's purile.

I mean even this place, type in www.driverheaven.com and see what you get -- pretty amuzing no? from .net to .com and you have a spot in heaven reserved just for you -- oh wait no you don't, only "the good" make it to heaven. Lets be more vague shall we.

No wonder dictators and cults get started so easily, cause the human race still appears to be very much a race of sheep -- lead me and I will follow -- baaah baaah baaah.

Rob.

Pompey

People have different reasons for having faith, I personally think its largely a comfort mechanism (like what you described V8). It can be a good influence or bad...It depends a lot on how people interpret their religion and how they let it influence their lives…


It can have a positive impact on some people’s lives and at the same time it is used to justify hate, discrimination and violence.

Science (very bad science) was used to justify the eugenics programs. How much if it is all people warping their religion/science to fit their own agenda/ beliefs?

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One's inability to find an answer to a question does not imply that the question has no answer.

Al_Vampyre

For me that just about sums it up, religion and the believe in an afterlife is merely a way of coping with the fact that we just can't accept that our individual lives have no significance whatsover other than what we do with them while we're alive. Some people will have an enormous impact on the people around them, sometimes good, sometimes bad. The vast majority of us will never have a major impact on the world so to make us feel better we believe that there is a higher being of some sort that knows us individually and has a purpose for us.

Religion is not required if you're looking for a moral compass, it just so happens that over the years it has turned out to be the most useful tool for doing so. Almost every religion has the same basic tenets as regarding what is right and what is wrong regardless of the deity involved.

SFOSOK

I would contribute, but u know. Since we are are all gunna die eventually and it really doesn't matter seein as we are workin towards nothing except ourselves and when we die it will be useless. Truthfully even if u make an impact in society by those standards it will be forgoten when everyone is dead.

Really...if there is no point then maybe you should just end it. O wait you would rather make yourself happy instread and whine about christianity? o ok then...




I don't think that people should believe in God because there would be no point otherwise. Though seriously there really wouldn't be a point cause we all will die eventually and a meteor with slam into us or we will slowly roast alive wiping all trace that you ever existed...

I believe in God personaly cause I know he is real to me.

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*Warning* - Explicit Content Preceeding

Al_Vampyre

Can't work out whther you're being sarcastic or not so I'll just assume you're not.

You have evry right to believe in god, I'm not questioning that, my standpoint is that I don't require belief in god to be i) a good person or ii) believe my life has purpose. I believe the purpose of my life is life itself, I do what I can to make myself, my loved ones, and anyone else I come into contact with happy based on my own moral code, which is probably very similar to yours anyway.

There is no attack on christianity or any other religion here, I just don't feel the need to set my faith in anything other than my own abilities...

YAYitsAndrew

I believe that some people need someone they can dump all their crap on when they're feeling stressed. It's like having an imaginary friend, but everyone else is doing it, so it's ok. Your imaginary friend will be there with you through anything. No matter what you do you're told that he'll always forgive you and he'll always help you. It feels good to give your problems to someone else and who better than someone that doesn't even exist and can't say no?

But that's just how some people are. They need religion. I've had it and not had it and life is sometimes pretty tough when you can't have that pretend comfort session with the one guy who can always make it all better.

It's also a lifelong myth that will keep less intelligent people on the right paths. There's no doubt that morality is full of good values and you can keep it without the attached religion, but for most people they're tied together. Certain people constantly need to know that their actions will someday be judged and they will be rewarded accordingly. We do this with our kids. We say be good and santa will bring gifts, otherwise you get coal. Church says be good and you'll go to your religion's happy place, otherwise it's off to your religion's bad place.

That's one of the cool things about religion. Once enough people believe in something it stops being crazy. I bet in a thousand years no one will be laughing at scientology anymore.

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Falstaff

oh ye of little faith.....tsk tsk tsk....

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