Why We Cannot Save Louisiana

Flexkill

Well I am from New Orleans(Born and raised there...I recently moved to Nashville TN.) and for you to say "let it rot and die" is just a stupid statement! I can say first hand that NO is a very corrupt and dangerous place, and alot of the things that you stated in your first post are accurate. All of my family and friends still live and support NO. It is their home! They are good people with good jobs, and they are a benefit to the community of NO. NO has been a bad place for a long time and I am hoping that Katrina will help this community rebuild the right way and get rid of the riff raff in charge like Nagan. I would not want to see my home forgotten to "rot and die"!

You have to understand that NO is like no other place in the USA(please restrain from the sarcastic remarks!) People that live there are mostly born there and they all mostly die there as well. NO natives rarely ever leave NO. There is just something about the mighty Mississippi river, the Quarter, and the smell of all that great Creole food that lures you to stay.

BWX

Of course there are a lot of good people there ..

I was talking about the government and crime rate, not the regular people. I just think the government is so incredibly corrupt (even more than most corrupt governments, which are common) that it would be a waste of tax payer money to throw billions more just to build government funded welfare courts..

Yeah sure, keep the good parts, but for the the federal government to fully finance a corrupt government to rebuild everything would be crazy.

TheBlackCat

Falstaff

Your not going to provoke me with remarks like that..LOL . It isnt about approval ratings nor did I mention that, and by the way, my salary is paid by the department of defense. And if you read my comments regarding Nagin and Blanco, I am not too terribly pleased with system that does exist in New Orleans. I have an intimate knowlege of the workings of law enforcement and the problems with city before Katrina. My ex-mother-in-law and my second ex-wife are both residents of the state and live in Harvey Lousiana. I fondly recall listening to stories of police corruption and graft as a young sailor as well. But then I did my research long ago. If your bored, look up the history of Storyville, or watch the movie "Pretty Baby", you might find it entertaining, its okay. But the politics of the south and the history of New Orleans is replete with stories of crime and corruption. If you like Ann Rice novels you might find a dark side of New Orleans you might find entertaining as well. From the Spanish occupation to the present day New Orleans, many ghosts reveal themselves in the shadowy past of that town. Perhaps that is what people are fond of, like any city, its checkered past, its ghosts and ghost stories. As for me....build the damn city 30 to 40 miles inland and let the delta recover enough to create the barrier of sediment and marshes that used to be there before we settled in.
As for Bush, my politics notwithstanding, you dont have to be a republican to see where years of corruption and poor managment took New Orleans. The loudest critics are the people of New Orleans against Nagin and Blanco are the very democrats themselves.

BWX

Just for the record.. That is BS.


http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...byl+death+toll

Chernobyl death toll grossly underestimated
http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...-deaths-180406
Chernobyl, Ukraine — A new Greenpeace report has revealed that the full consequences of the Chernobyl disaster could top a quarter of a million cancer cases and nearly 100,000 fatal cancers


The new data, based on Belarus national cancer statistics, predicts approximately 270,000 cancers and 93,000 fatal cancer cases caused by Chernobyl. The report also concludes that on the basis of demographic data, during the last 15 years, 60,000 people have additionally died in Russia because of the Chernobyl accident, and estimates of the total death toll for the Ukraine and Belarus could reach another 140,000.





IAEA deliberately downplays Chernobyl death toll to pave way for nuclear renaissance
http://www.greenpeace.org/internatio...orumclosingday
Geneva, Switzerland — Greenpeace, today, accused the International Atomic Energy Agency of deliberately trying to down play the death toll of the Chernobyl accident as part of the nuclear industry's continued attempt to portray itself as an acceptable future energy source.
"fewer than 50 deaths had been directly attributed to radiation from the disaster," to date. The IAEA study does not cover all of the populations affected by Chernobyl fall-out but merely considers those who received a high radiation dose in the immediate wake of the accident - namely those 'liquidators' drafted in to carry out the immediate clean up of the site.









http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/722533.stm
Ukraine's Health Ministry estimates that 3.5 million people, over a third of them children, have suffered illness as a result of the contamination, and the incidence of some cancers is 10 times the national average.








http://www.ratical.org/radiation/Che...obyl@10p2.html
Thyroid Cancers: More, Sooner, Untreatable
Dr. Soyfer further discovered that the Soviets focused on and publicized the fallout's radioactive iodine content, but understated the amounts of other far more dangerous isotopes. While 10 to 15 percent of the fallout was iodine-131, the long-lived radionuclides strontium-90 and cesium-137 made up more than two thirds of the total contamination.[12]

Furthermore, the Soviet's 1986 estimate of future cancer deaths was based only on the impact of iodine-131, and then only on external doses. As a result, the IAEA misled the world about Chernobyl's cancer threat. People contaminated with iodine-131 ingested it, first by breathing, then by drinking contaminated milk for six weeks. Thyroid cancer is caused by the iodine-131. Its rates are today ten times higher than the increase any scientist had anticipated. The U. N. has said that the number of thyroid cancers among children in Belarus -- where 70 percent of the fallout landed -- are 285 times pre-Chernobyl levels.[13]
The British Medical Journal reported in 1995 that the rate of thyroid cancer in the region north of Chernobyl -- Ukraine and Belarus -- is 200 times higher than normal, and the (British) Imperial Cancer Research Fund found a 500 percent increase in thyroid cancers among Ukrainian children between 1986 and 1993.[14]
Fear is growing among physicians treating the young radiation victims, because the thyroid cancers are appearing sooner than expected and growing quicker than usual. Dr. Andrei Butenko, at Kiev Hospital No. 1 in Ukraine, says of his patients, "Routine chemotherapy seems to have lost its effectiveness; something has changed in the immune system."[15]

Cesium's Genetic Assault: the 300 Years War
Cesium-137 contamination is probably Chernobyl's most devastating and ominous consequence. The body can't distinguish cesium from potassium, so it's taken up by our cells and becomes an internal source of radiation. Cesium-137 is a gamma emitter and its half-life of 30 years means that it stays in the soil, to concentrate in the food chain, for over 300 years. While iodine-131 remains radioactive for six weeks, cesium-137 stays in the body for decades, concentrating in muscle where it irradiates muscle cells and nearby organs.[16]

Strontium-90 is also long-lived and, because it resembles calcium, is permanently incorporated into bone tissue where it may lead to leukemia.

The Soviets acknowledged in 1986 that the influence of cesium-137 on cancer death rates would be nine times that of iodine-131. They said that the effects of strontium-90 would "perhaps have, along with cesium-137, the most important meaning."[17]

Flexkill

You my friend are an idiot!!!!

Falstaff

now now now....
can we say this in a kinder gentler way?

Flexkill

If you are talking about my comment....I don't believe there is a nice way to call someone an idiot....soooooo

You have to admit that's a pretty asinine statement he made.

Maddogg6

Twas making a point....not provoking.... but you working for the DOD - I see you as having a vested interest in our current administartion and thus, I will not take your opinions very seriously as you are most likely going to have a prejudice viewpoint. And you 'getting worked up' about bush being called a racist seems to re-enforce this point as well.

------------
But I DO now have a little more respect for 'Brownie' taking some blame for the katrina mess (seen on 'surviving katrina' on Discovery last night.)
(I paraphearse btw)
'All of us failed, the whitehouse, FEMA, local officials - we all failed the NO citizens'

This just rang out a truth when I heard it.

he has earned some instant respect from me for saying this alone...no matter how big a nimrod he may or may not be. Now I guess im not sure. But... Finally some one taking public responsibility - too bad he was the only one relieved of his 'responsibility'.

BUT I did have some questions after watching...

They showed footage of people 'playing' in the rain and wind of previos hurricanes (was in the begging part that was commenting on everyones 'complacency') ... ok so NO has endured hurricanes in the past. right? and for 30+ years no excessive flooding in NO.

Then they have this expert saying this 'cat 3 hurricane desined' levee wouldnt have withstood a cat 1 hurricane - but didnt mention how it had endured in the past or if new weaknesses caused it to collapse this time.

reguardless.... it was spec'd out for cat 3 and katrina was cat 5... N.O. would have been flooded anyway. So it would seem the locals squandering WASNT the cause afterall. Just a contributor. - right?
'our computer models didnt account for levee breaches' - but LSU experts were STILL warning of mass flooding prior.

Now. the other thing I found interesting is this expert also stated that it was the ground beneath the levees and would take 20 years to make it handle a cat5 hurricane... so how was these billions spent 'inproving' these levees over the past years? How did they NOT get caught 'sqaundering' the $$? How did they justify spending the $$?? Who is responsible in fed gov't for this obvious 'mis-appropriation'.

Oh wouldnt the Army Corp of Engineers have had this job? - and isnt Bush their commander in cheif as well.

Thus, the $$$ would NOT have gone into the pockets of local gov't - but into THAT fed agency. - or how is this wrong? please explain?

And the buss thing was just poor planning and NOT 'refusal for use' as mentioned in this thread earlier - according to this special anyway.... and I have to say made more sense than a flat refusal.

But I liked how the Deputy Mayor of NO said. (in response to Nagin wanting to make a manditory evac earlier)

edited:
'wait a minute.... not so quick.... was legals and HLS response' so basically - HLS is alledged to have halted earlier evacs as well .... and HE (Chartoff - spelling..?? who cares) IS a Bush buddy too.
end editing

Maddogg6

How about this as response...

'Well if you get robbed - we should kick your ass for being at the wrong place at the wrong time - knowing full well that crime exists'

Would have been more to the point and non-invasive.

Falstaff

you know I have been patient with you, and civil, but if you continue to make remarks about the validity of my comments or opinions I could care less really, that isn't the purpose of the forum we are both participating in, rather an oppurtunity to hear from both sides. I can only assume from your remarks that you entertain your own council on politics and equally as narrow minded as you have suggested others are as well. As far as a vested interest in anything rest assured I pay taxes, work for a living and served my country in a uniform and a coat and tie, so I paid my dues....how about you?
you may decline to respond to that last question because I am sure you are making some sort of contribution to the improvement to the U.S. or to yourself.
I have nothing but contempt for those that demonstrate a certain amount of hypocracy when it comes to national issues. I am above reproach in these matters, my opinion is well known, and I am not ashamed to tell anyone what I do for a living, I wonder how many other people can say that.
Make sacrifices for your family or your country...then you have room to complain about national issues and while your at it, try suggesting or take action on improving your country..assuming your an American.

Flexkill

Point taken

OldBuzzard

If you happen to be walking down the street in a high crime area with $100.00 bills hanging out of your pockets, then yes...you should have your ass kicked.


As far as hurricanes are concerned, NO is in a 'high crime area'. Katrina wasn't the first storm to hit NO. Betsy did a pretty good job on NO in 1965 (I know cause I was in the USAF stationed in Biloxi, and we went to NO to help in some cleanup). There was no FEMA or any of the other alphabet agencies giveing out tax money to cleanup/rebuild, and they survived quite well. Back then we didn't wait for the 'government' to bail us out. We rolled up our sleeves and helped ourselves and others.

The difference now, especially after years and years of NO being a LIEbural 'utopia' is that everyone just sat on their asses waiting for the 'government' to do something. The cold hard truth is that a lot of people were either too stupid or too damned lazy to move out when they had the chance. Compound that with the LOCAL LEADERS ineptness and inaction, and the results were predictable.

Everyone (especially the media) focused on NO and the problems there, but were strangely silent about the rest of the Gulf Coast. Why? Mississippi (who got hit harder because they were on the eastern side of the storm, and had a storm surge upwards of 40 FEET) didn't have a problem getting National Guard help because they had the Guard on standby and READY to go. They had a plan and followed it. No opportunity there to bash the 'racist, homphobe, bigot, EEEVVVIILLLLL' Bush. Hell, even in other Parishes in La there wasn't that big a problem because the people there aren't of the 'LIEbural mindset'. But then again, you didn't hear about THAT in the LMSM either.

The LOCAL and STATE leaders in La blew it, and in typical LIEbural fashion have been trying to blame it on anyone else other than themselves.

Falstaff

We were in Biloxi too during Betsy, my father was stationed at Keesler, I remember it well, albiet with the help of pictures..I remember the Magnolia tree on our street falling down and my dads old Plymouth covered in salt spray.. It was a different place then, our nieghborhood was all white and we lived right off base, we dug ourselves out, and I dont think we ever say a National Guardsman, but then I think Betsy was a Cat 3 storm not a 4 or 5 right? I mean it is so damn easy for armchair critics today to view the devastation from a news chopper and report eyewitness accounts from the wave torn beaches and flooded streets. When we were younger we just sucked it up and pulled the garbage and crap out of the street and yards and went about our business setting things right. I know that poor people suffered, but they were no worse off then back in 1965 than they were now. Even then we saw New Orleans as a dismal and filthy place full of tourists and drunkards with police that routinely shook down people for money on the primace that they might get arrested if they did pay their fine on the street. Shoot I think they still had drive through daquieri shops when I was there in 2001. I for one wouldnt miss the old New Orleans. I say rebuild it inland where it is reasonably protected and away from the mistakes of the Army Corp of Engineers over the past 100 years.

Maddogg6

Woah... chilll man ... I WAS civil as well - I stated my viewpoint out in a civil manner - I didnt call childish names (but I got an insinuation of being some kind of dead beat in return)... I said it in as carefull of a mannor I could. (but Ill admit Ive been told I can have a 'sharp tung' when in 'passionate mode' - but I re-read what I said a few times (before I hit submit)...and I wont appologize for my statements as they were NOT attacks but obvious opinions)
Or please quote me where I wasn't civil? Where did I personally attack YOU??
I DID only state fact or MY OPINION- correct? (with words like: 'seems like' and such)

By the way... the '--------' was seperating comments aimed at your quote to ideas in general afterwards . But... Ill assume you DID understand this. (seemed obvious to me anyway)

This was the jist of my first draft...
Was that better? I thought my original post was most civil... but I'll let you choose the better wording..??

Additionally and personally, I equate reading your opinions that are VERY pro bush, and knowing who your employer is, to; listening to a career criminal on how to stop crime - he may know and even give good info - BUT he may also give false info too... we would never know what their motives would be... would we? (reminder: the above was NOT an accusation or an attack - just a comparison of logic.)

Ok... - thats the part that sounds like an insinuation that I; am evading taxes; am commiting un-employment insurance fraud; and evaded the draft or sumthin; AKA 'personal attack'

Thankfully Im not THAT touchy....

Paying taxes is not proof of loyalty to a anything - its more proof of fear of the IRS. And if you were drafted, your miltary service while appreciated, is moot as well.
btw - A medical condition prevented me from being accepted in the military (thankfully, I dunno wtf I was thinking at the time) - but I did try to join after H.S.

Your comments (and personal attacks??) here seem to be more proof of how touchy you are about bush as well as quick to make assumption/accusations (like at Nagin and Blanco - Guilty until proven Innocent mentality I guess.)

Your pride IS obvious (and mis-placed IMO) and my profession is moot (sole propietor of my own IT business - if you must know - And I DO pay taxes too.. but not out of loyalty to our gov't - but... partly out of knowing a society cant survive without em.. and mostly out of fear of repricussion from the IRS.)

Additionally, I vote and have donated my services and helping PEOPLE at a local charity on multiple occasions (Ill admit, it was NOT ALL out of my good nature it was for tax reasons - but its 'win-win' - a concept I truely embrace) Spent plenty of time at a VA hospitol and made many friends there as well. (I used to fix wheel chairs and help make prosthetic limbs there when I was in school - but we still keep in contact from time to time.)

Ok..how about you? how do YOU contribute - besides paying taxes, your past military service, making SW for Cradle to Grave and accusing others (like me, nagin and blanco) of un-proven charges and assumptions in the DH forums? (rhetorical... I dont really care - meant to make a point)

And to stand by and knowingly let it happen... for how long did you say????
1) your use of the word 'fondly' there is scarry
2) *Seems* like hypocracy to me as well as *maybe even* aiding and/or abedding to boot... ???

Me - I can, with clear conscience, plead ignorance of any corruption there (never been there). All I can do is watch over MY local gov't - How about you/your family tho.? Its up to your family in NO to watch over their local gov't - right? Do you despise THEIR hypocracy as well?? (oh, unless they arent there anymore of course - and if so, wheres this insight to N.O. politics comming from again? the media..., like everyone else?) Did they vote in these 'crooks' ?! Did they try to warn others of such corruption? Or just tell 'stories' about it for 'fond memories' later?
(if you didnt guess - that comment irked me)

AND last but NOT least...
OMFG - you actually think because I DIDNT serve in the miltary Im NOT allowed to have an opinion here.... OMFG!!@!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!@$$#^#@$%^%&*%$&
THAT comment was COMPLETELY uncalled for...

AND AGAIN with the assumptions - you have no idea what I do or do not do, now do ya? NOPE! ...

AND I do make suggestions ('oust yur reps people' - has been said on more than one occasion... Maybe I should add - 'punch you neighbors for voting that nimrod in office' too - seems to be the mentality here.. ??)
(side note: what about if he was unaware of it hanging out? - if ya want to play 'what ifs' and add conditions.. and... having your home robbed - means you deserve it because you had it 'out in the open' as well then too- eh hem... Opportunity <> Justification - wheres yur logic man? and I sure hope this wasnt a cop making this comment - but this logic would help explain how bad areas get worse - blame crimes on victoms)

And yes Im full blooded USofA stock.

'Hi, Im Maddogg6 and I approved this message'
(in other words I have re-read it to make sure I was civil.)

Maddogg6

Curious.... how many people lived in NO when Betsey hit?
Id imagine the population has increased significantly since.

And how many people lost their homes? How many were minority/low income?
How many were shipped out of state afterwards?

Your point about all the focus on N.O. is a good one... I dont think I heard a word about the other areas.... prolly cuz they DID go smoothly (well - less scrwed up, how does anything go 'smoothly' with a cat 5 hurricane). ?? I gues sthat makes sense.

Pompey

It was an expression. I didn’t literally mean we should kick their ass.
I was making the point that living in an area battered by hurricanes every season below sea level is idiotic. I consider them morons for living there.

Its like throwing petrol on a fire and being surprised when it explodes.

BWX

There are many people on DH that would be getting lots of PM's from moderators with warnings if they said that.

Falstaff