Lebanon Israel Conflict

Pompey · Jul 20, 2006, 04:29 AM

Im not saying some action taken by Israel was not justified, but their actions in Lebanon are over the top.
The Lebanese government is not dealing adequately with Hezbollah so sending in helicopters or whatever to take out the launching sites in the south may be justified, but bombing the international airport and roads are not. Groups like Hezbollah claim they are freedom fighters, and when Israel behaves like it has done it gives substance to that claim.
The conflict only has a chance of ending when the Palestinians get a viable state. Once they have that I (and the world) will be more supportive of Israel quest for security.

Yousaif · Jul 20, 2006, 07:26 AM

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The conflict only has a chance of ending when the Palestinians get a viable state. Once they have that I (and the world) will be more supportive of Israel quest for security.

The prvious PM of Israel in the summit meeting with the PLO offered pullback to pre-1967 borders, leaving the area that would be given up for a Palestinian state. the PLO walked out of the meeting. They won't be happy with pre-1967. They want pre-1947 (when Israel was established).

The Islamists won't be happy until there is NO Israel.

Israel is well within their rights to go into Lebanon to take out Hezbollah. If the Lebanese government won't do it then Israel is forced to.

The UN won't even admit that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.

SFOSOK · Jul 20, 2006, 02:11 PM

Ouch I guess that picture was pretty bad huh? Srry bout that

Pompey · Jul 21, 2006, 05:21 AM

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The prvious PM of Israel in the summit meeting with the PLO offered pullback to pre-1967 borders, leaving the area that would be given up for a Palestinian state. the PLO walked out of the meeting. They won't be happy with pre-1967. They want pre-1947 (when Israel was established).

The Islamists won't be happy until there is NO Israel.

Israel is well within their rights to go into Lebanon to take out Hezbollah. If the Lebanese government won't do it then Israel is forced to.

The UN won't even admit that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization.

Which summit? Are you talking about the Camp David summit in 2000? The one where under Israel’s proposal the Palestinians had to give up another 9-10% of the west bank? On top of that they were required to give "Temporary Israeli control" to a further 10% of their land and an Israeli Highway cutting through the middle of the west bank, that Palestinians would only be able to cross at Israelis discretion. And for all this, the Palestinians would get 1-3% of Israeli desert.
Some hardliners wont be happy until there is no Israel, but that is not the consensus. Recently the Palestinian president proposed a referendum that would claim land Israel occupied after 1967 which hamas opposed (perhaps thats why they kidnapped the Israeli soldier?).

Blame lies with both sides in this and yes Israel was provoked into the actions it has taken (although Hezbollah claim they are retaliating for Israel’s actions in Palestine). Im not defending Hamas or Hezbollah im saying that Israel’s actions go too far. This is an attack on Lebanon and its people; it is they who are suffering.

Partizan · Jul 21, 2006, 08:00 AM

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Originally Posted by Gabriel_Etranil

Hezbollah is responsible for the Khobar Towers bombing, I hope they get what they deserve.

Bombing the roads and the airport doesn't hurt the Hezbollah, the only victims are civilians. And this is a shame.

Indeed, Israel is overreacting.

zerodamage · Jul 21, 2006, 08:41 AM

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Originally Posted by Pompey

Israels bombardment of Lebanon is a total over reaction and I suspect their motives go far beyond recovering the two soldiers.
Two soldiers being kidnapped does not justify the invasion of a country and bombing of civilian infrastructure. Most of the people killed by Israel in this current conflict have not been terrorists but civilians. Im not saying some action was not justified but this campaign goes to far.

Has anyone else noticed Israel citing Lebanons failure to abide by UN resolutions as justification for their actions?

Why do you and others think that there should be restraint on combat? If someone were to attack you with a knife and you had a gun, would you want to restrain yourself, to tone it down and go get a knife so it will be fair or do you shoot him? The same can be said of the continuation of World War 3. If Hezbollah is stupid enough to attack Israel who is much more power militarily than they are, then you deal with them as swifly and as strongly as possibly. You do not "tone it down" and "show restraint" in war. It is simply ridiculous and I laugh everytime I hear it. Imagine if all wars were fought this way. "Looks like we are winning, Hitler is losing. We should tone it down and make it fair so he has a chance." ROFL

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Both Israel and Lebanese are wrong in these and they must stop immediately
and go to the negotiations table

How exactly do you negotiate with terrorists again? Seriously, this conflict has shown how useless the U.N. is. Resolution 1559, one of hundreds if not thousands of "resolutions" that the U.N never intends to enforce. Muslim Jihadists can not be negotiated with for the exception of one way, utter defeat through death and destruction.

BWX · Jul 21, 2006, 09:24 AM

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Originally Posted by Partizan

Bombing the roads and the airport doesn't hurt the Hezbollah, the only victims are civilians. And this is a shame.

Indeed, Israel is overreacting.

I don't think so.. it hurts their ability to resupply their arsenal.
Hezbollah want Israel destroyed, and they started this conflict. They are getting what they deserve, I think any country would defend themselves from a terrorist group lobbing bombs at their towns.

It's funny how everyone says Israel needs to back off and they always talk about all the civilian deaths they cause (even though it is Hezbollah's fault for hiding among civilians)- but no one ever complains about the fundamental Islamic terrorist's actions.

It's laughable that people (like the UN and the Pope, etc) call for a cease fire, that's like calling for a cease fire between the Police and the criminals. These people are terrorists that want the total destruction of a legitimate county.. Why people defend them at all is beyond me.

Partizan · Jul 21, 2006, 11:03 AM

I am not defending anyone. I am just saying that the civilians are the only victims. With frontal attacks and massive bombardment hezbollah won't be seriusly hurt.

SFOSOK · Jul 21, 2006, 11:26 AM

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Originally Posted by zerodamage

Why do you and others think that there should be restraint on combat? If someone were to attack you with a knife and you had a gun, would you want to restrain yourself, to tone it down and go get a knife so it will be fair or do you shoot him? The same can be said of the continuation of World War 3. If Hezbollah is stupid enough to attack Israel who is much more power militarily than they are, then you deal with them as swifly and as strongly as possibly. You do not "tone it down" and "show restraint" in war. It is simply ridiculous and I laugh everytime I hear it. Imagine if all wars were fought this way. "Looks like we are winning, Hitler is losing. We should tone it down and make it fair so he has a chance." ROFL

How exactly do you negotiate with terrorists again? Seriously, this conflict has shown how useless the U.N. is. Resolution 1559, one of hundreds if not thousands of "resolutions" that the U.N never intends to enforce. Muslim Jihadists can not be negotiated with for the exception of one way, utter defeat through death and destruction.

Agreed. In all truth the war in Iraq would have been finished in a couple months if journalism and polititions were not involved. The US millitary is the world expert at killing and destroying the enemy. The only time we lose quite a bit of soldiers is when the media and politics tie their hands and tell them they are only supposed to fight this way.

I was talking to my friend in 10th mountain about the new rules of engagement they have and he says that they are only allowed to fire once they have been fired upon aka "Lose one take one". Thats not how wars need to be fought.

Untie their hands and stop warning the enemy that they are coming.

War is a last resort but once it gets goin get the f*ck out of the way.

~~Alien1~~ · Jul 21, 2006, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Partizan

I am not defending anyone. I am just saying that the civilians are the only victims. With frontal attacks and massive bombardment hezbollah won't be seriusly hurt.

Nicely said

Civilians are always the victims from wars

and Israel is surely overreacting by attacking in that way in foreign soil to capture their "terrorists"

They could use a surgical strike and not hurt innocents and destroy buildings that have nothing to do with hezbolah
That's reckleshness and they just show to the rest of the world that they do not care for anyone apart their own people

I have already a known person of mine in there, know he is safe in Cyprus and said that Israel is hitting Civilian properties also with their artillery

If Iran joins the fight because of Israel stupidity in dealing matters apropriatelly it will be a huge Crysis in all Middle East and who knows where else...

Israel acting like cowboys and threating or hurting people with guns is not scaring Hesbolah and does not have a good effect

Maybe USA needs to hold their dog (israel)
They have done already enough damage
It is already known who gives weapons to Israel to fight their war in the expense of innocents and gave the Green light for it

* According to what my friend said

Gabriel_Etranil · Jul 21, 2006, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Partizan

Bombing the roads and the airport doesn't hurt the Hezbollah, the only victims are civilians. And this is a shame.

Indeed, Israel is overreacting.

I didn't see anybody getting upset about what Hezbollah was doing to Israel prior to Israel 'overreacting'. How many missle have Hezbollah fired at Israel killing civillians prior to their overreaction? How many times did Israel give these people what they wanted?

How many people in here feel that an attack on a military base in the United States is legitimate military target for an enemy of the US to attack?

BWX · Jul 21, 2006, 07:38 PM

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Partizan I am not defending anyone. I am just saying that the civilians are the only victims. With frontal attacks and massive bombardment hezbollah won't be seriusly hurt.

Yeah that definitely sucks.. but then again.. that's why war and conflict like this should be avoided at all costs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alien1

Nicely said

Civilians are always the victims from wars

and Israel is surely overreacting by attacking in that way in foreign soil to capture their "terrorists"

[COLOR=Red]No I really don't think they are "overreacting", they are just defending their country from a terrorist organization.[/COLOR]

They could use a surgical strike and not hurt innocents and destroy buildings that have nothing to do with hezbolah
That's reckleshness and they just show to the rest of the world that they do not care for anyone apart their own people

[COLOR=Red]That's just plain untrue. They are only attacking what they think are the terrorists or where the terrorists are, or targets that will cut the terrorists off from their supply of weapons.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=Red] They don't want to kill innocent civilians. it sounds like you are rooting for terrorists with these comments. Does Hezbollah care about Israel? Where is you outrage toward them?[/COLOR]

I have already a known person of mine in there, know he is safe in Cyprus and said that Israel is hitting Civilian properties also with their artillery

[COLOR=Red]Maybe because the radical Islamic terrorists use civilians as human shields? Blame the people that admit they want Israel blown off the map. Again, where is you outrage for the terrorists who target civilians and started this conflict?[/COLOR]

If Iran joins the fight because of Israel stupidity in dealing matters apropriatelly it will be a huge Crysis in all Middle East and who knows where else...

[COLOR=Red]That's ridiculous, Iran is funding and supplying Hezbollah through Syria.. You think Israel is at fault because they defend themselves form terrorists? Iran has also stated they want to destroy Israel. They are antisemitic racist pigs. We'll probably have to take him out before he gets nukes and starts WWW III [/COLOR]

Israel acting like cowboys and threating or hurting people with guns is not scaring Hesbolah and does not have a good effect

[COLOR=Red]Yeah they should use their full military power and blow the militarily weak and inferior Hezbollah back to the stone age where they belong. They don't stand a chance if they stood up like real men and fought like a legitimate country.. They have to resort to cowardice acts of terrorism because they are so weak. How can you defend admitted terrorist and blame a country for defending it's population form terrorist attacks? It is completely backwards logic.[/COLOR]

Maybe USA needs to hold their dog (israel)
They have done already enough damage
It is already known who gives weapons to Israel to fight their war in the expense of innocents and gave the Green light for it
* According to what my friend said

[COLOR=Red]Your friend sounds like he is a racist Antisemite that has a very twisted view of the world. he calls the country defending itself a dog, but defends terrorists who are bombing innocent civilians on purpose for no reason.

.. It is amazing that people like that can take the side of terrorists who put innocent people in harms way by using civilians as human shields.. and keep there missiles in mosques.

If he should be angry with anyone it should be Hezbollah for starting this. [/COLOR]

Here's the deal, listen up.

If the terrorists were to disarm and stop attacking Israel there would be no more war over there, no more military conflicts.

If Israel were to disarm they would be exterminated by people who want to kill them for who they are, not what they do.

SFOSOK · Jul 21, 2006, 08:09 PM

In a war people die... Soldiers die, cilvilians die, everything does.

If you tell a country to hold back their millitary then more of their soldiers die. The civilians have had a fair warning, if they don't leave then they should expect to be killed.

BWX · Jul 21, 2006, 09:19 PM

Yeah I would leave.. let the terrorists take the hit.

mainman · Jul 22, 2006, 02:54 AM

One thing i find funny is reading that the poor civilians are getting killed. Just the other day on the news the poor civilians were support hezbollah...

So they are getting killed because of the hezbollah terrorrist actions and still they support them? WTF? I say Israel wipe the f*ckers off the map and be done with it. They sure have been asking for it for years...

Al_Vampyre · Jul 22, 2006, 03:47 AM

[quote=SFOSOK]

I was talking to my friend in 10th mountain about the new rules of engagement they have and he says that they are only allowed to fire once they have been fired upon aka "Lose one take one". Thats not how wars need to be fought.
QUOTE]

Of course thats not how wars need to be fought, but then officially speaking the war in Iraq is over. The coalition forces are now in Iraq supposedly rebuilding the country and acting as a multi-national peace keeping/anti-terrorist force.

Standard rules of engagement for a peacekeeping force are return fire only, I've lost count of the numnber of times my police and army friends told me over the last 30 years that the Ireland situation could have been sorted out if they had been given free reign to take out the people involved without any public or political intervention. But you can't and you're never going to be able to, and anyone that stopped to think about it would have known that this is exactly how the situation would have ended up...

Coalition governements now have two choices;

Stay in Iraq and do what they intended to do all along BUT know if you do that you're going to be there for a very long time, maybe 30 years or so (not unfeasible since its taken that long to get the people of Northen Ireland into the right frame of mind to try to stop the rot and I doubt Islamic fundamentalists are any less stubborn than the Irish)

Or,

Do what people all over the world are afraid they're going to do and give in to political and public pressure to 'bring our boys home' and leave the country to sort itself out but from an even worse position than it was in before...

Israel and Lebanon need to be talking to each other, they need cross border co-operation and Lebanon needs to show willing to capture and punish terrorists operating from within their territory. If they don't show willing then we need to sanction them until they have no choice (which would also impact the civilians but not quite as much as bombing the hell out of them)

Not one of the coaltion governments is really in a position to say anything about it, WE gave Israel the precedent to carry out this kind of action, and we did it not based on actual terrorist attacks on our countries from Iraq but on flawed intelligence that they might just attack us. So for any coalition government to criticize Israel's actions would be just so incredibly hypocritical it would likely cause massive political ramifications within their own voter base...

Pompey · Jul 22, 2006, 05:08 AM

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Why do you and others think that there should be restraint on combat? If someone were to attack you with a knife and you had a gun, would you want to restrain yourself, to tone it down and go get a knife so it will be fair or do you shoot him? The same can be said of the continuation of World War 3. If Hezbollah is stupid enough to attack Israel who is much more power militarily than they are, then you deal with them as swifly and as strongly as possibly. You do not "tone it down" and "show restraint" in war. It is simply ridiculous and I laugh everytime I hear it. Imagine if all wars were fought this way. "Looks like we are winning, Hitler is losing. We should tone it down and make it fair so he has a chance." ROFL

WTF they are totally different situations! In your example, your life is immediately in danger so it is OK to use force to save your own life. Let’s just say it was a valid comparison, It is not OK to bomb the attackers apartment block or his parents house. You "show restraint" when you are fighting in an area inhabited by civilians.

Hezbollah was set up in response to Israel’s actions decades ago. To the people of Lebanon they are freedom fighters. Hezbollah provides for those too poor to afford things like healthcare and education for their children. That is why they receive so much support from some parts of the population. Whoever is saying its the civilians own fault for being there, look at the actions taken by Israel. Those who have the means to flee have the people that are left for the most part cant afford to leave - its like Hurricane Katrina. And for those who do want to leave, is incredibly difficult because Israel has blockaded the ports, bombed the airport and destroyed the roads. Many are too terrified to leave their homes. How the hell are they supposed to get out?

I am not defending Hezbollah firing rockets at Israeli cities, I am happy to condemn that. But it does not justify bombing a nation and its people back 20 years.

As everyone should know, this kind of attack on a people only hardens the resolve of extremists. The voices calling for peace with a country are quickly drowned out when that country is in the process of bombing you. You cannot fight a conventional war against gorilla forces. Hasn’t the world learn anything from Vietnam? Now Israel might invade Lebanon, and the Lebanese army will aid Hezbollah along with every other terrorist group that wants to take part in the defence. What do you expect? They share a common enemy that poses a bigger threat than they pose to each other so of course they will team up. America and Britain allied themselves with Stalin during WWII.

Once again, to make this absolutely clear, I am not defending terrorist attacks. But at the same time I am criticising Israel for using disproportionate force and that is the position of many people. Its not as simple as good vs. evil there are wrongs on both sides. The Lebanese were not doing enough to stop Hezbollah attacks so SOME action would be justified but not the excessive attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure.

This may be cliché but in this case it really is a case of one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

~~Alien1~~ · Jul 22, 2006, 06:46 AM

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Originally Posted by BWX

Here's the deal, listen up.

If the terrorists were to disarm and stop attacking Israel there would be no more war over there, no more military conflicts.

If Israel were to disarm they would be exterminated by people who want to kill them for who they are, not what they do.

Man
Lebaneze does not see Hesbolah as real terrorists
most of the just see them just as a extremists group that's why

Israel with USA blessings see Hesbolah as terrorists and a big threat and that's their opinion

No one said of course Hesbolah are saints but according to Lebanese it's another thing calling someone a terrorist and another thing calling someone a extremist

By the way Extremists are both in Lebanese and Israel Soil but according USA only in the Lebanese soil are the real threats

[color=Red]

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No I really don't think they are "overreacting", they are just defending their country from a terrorist organization.

[color=Black]Israel are attacking in another soil that does not belong do them and
destroying houses and properties that have nothing to do with Hesbolah by the way
[/color][/color][color=Red][color=Black]
I do not see Israel army beeing inside their country defending it[/color][/color]
[color=Red][color=Black]So how do you really call these "defense"

Lebanese military are responding with rockets and old Military equipment but i would hardly call "response to aggression" as crime compared to what Israel is doing right now

[/color][/color][color=Red]

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[/color]
[color=Red]They don't want to kill innocent civilians. it sounds like you are rooting for terrorists with these comments. Does Hezbollah care about Israel? Where is you outrage toward them?[/color][color=Red]

[/color]

They do not want to but they do and that is what matters

No Hezbollaz does not care about Israel probably and i agree with you in that
but
if Israel want them so bad and are such a big threat to them they should find a better and more effective way to get them

Until know i see only Thousands and millions refuggees and millions Lebanese victims
and i still see Hesbolah beeing mostly fine

How many Lebanese victims will be needed to be sacrificed to get your terrorists ??
[color=Red][color=Black]

[/color][/color][color=Red]

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Maybe because the radical Islamic terrorists use civilians as human shields? Blame the people that admit they want Israel blown off the map. Again, where is you outrage for the terrorists who target civilians and started this conflict?[/color][color=Red]

[/color]

Well

Yes Hesbolah are hiding like cowards but no they are not really using their people as shields

Israel just does not know where they are and do not know where to hit them
and is hitting innocent civilians by the way with the excuse that maybe they are terrorists in there
[color=Red]
[/color][color=Red]

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[/color][color=Red]yeah they should use their full military power and blow the militarily weak and inferior Hezbollah back to the stone age where they belong. They don't stand a chance if they stood up like real men and fought like a legitimate country.. They have to resort to cowardice acts of terrorism because they are so weak. How can you defend admitted terrorist and blame a country for defending it's population form terrorist attacks? It is completely backwards logic.[/color][color=Red]

[/color]

Well the problem as said is they are not doing that
and they are surely NOT effective to get Hesbolah

More civilians have been the victims in these war until now than Hesbolah soldiers

How can you do not see that and still be only with Israel side in these war

[color=Red]

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[/color] The civilians have had a fair warning, if they don't leave then they should expect to be killed.[color=Red]

[color=black] That's so easy for you to say behind your nice desk and nice chair
And where these people do you think they must go ???

Maybe you should become also a refugee in a foreign country
leave your work, your house, your nice desk
not knowing what to do without money[/color] [color=Black]in another country[/color][/color][color=black]

[/color][color=Red][color=black]Just for you to see what it feels like [/color]
[/color]

BWX · Jul 22, 2006, 07:09 AM

Well the thing is alien, that when Hezbollah launches a missile, the Israelis can figure out where it came from, especially at night, and they strike there. The Hezbollah are launching them from outside of people's houses, they have stockpiles of missiles in private homes basements. I think people need to realize that...

War sucks, it's not good for anyone, but you have to blame the war on the initial aggressors, especially if they want to destroy a country.

I realize there are two sides to every story, but these people have to sit back and use their brains and figure out the Israel has a right to exist- and if they feel so strongly that Israel should be annihilated, they need to take the consequences of acting on those racist notions.

Again, Israel is being very careful about their targets, they do not want to kill innocent people in Lebanon, they are forced to by the Hezbollah.

Quote:

That's so easy for you to say behind your nice desk and nice chair
And where these people do you think they must go ???

They support the people who are causing them all this pain. Also SFOSOK has a more of right to talk about it than most of us - he's going into the military, he might end up in Iraq or some other war torn country.. not behind a nice desk and nice chair.