YAYitsAndrew

so much, that I wrote a blog entry on it.

http://blog.360.yahoo.com/yayitsandrew

An Intelligent Banana

If you've ever been given a pamphlet by an intelligent design propagandist (henceforth referred to as "loon"), then you've read the banana argument. If you haven't here's the gist: since bananas are so tailored to humans, then they must have had some intelligent being behind their design. I will cover the finer points in more detail below, followed by a logical thrashing.

It is important to first examine the logical fallacy at hand. This should jump out at anyone who has every taken a logic course, because it is the most basic and first fallacy that is covered. The fallacy is referred to as "affirming the consequent". Here is an example. When it rains, the ground is wet. The ground is wet. Therefore it has rained. Does that sound fine to you? It shouldn't. Maybe the ground is wet because your neighbor turned on their sprinkler. Or maybe you spilled a bucket of water while washing your car. There is simply not enough information contained in the statements "When it rains the ground is wet" and "The ground is wet" to draw a conclusion as to HOW the wetness occurred.

Now let's apply this to the loon's argument. An intelligent being exists because it created the banana in a way that facilitates its consumption by humans. By design, the banana facilitates its consumption by humans. Therefore, an intelligent being exists. It is easy to see that this argument is a clear example of affirming the consequent.

Wow, that's pretty convincing! Should we stop right here? No, I believe there is much more fun to be had at the expense of intelligent design. The loon begins listing qualities of the banana to support their invalid argument. Did you know that the banana has a grippy surface that is angled to fit into our hands and not fall out? Surely if an intelligent designer were behind this, the same care was given to other fruits, correct? A perfect example is the pineapple. Its thorny, slippery surface is great for holding; the thorns dig into your palm and the slipperiness ensures that the thorns are the only thing keeping it in your hand. Clearly an intelligent design.

The banana has a color indication system. Green means not yet, yellow means eat me, and black means too late. That’s pretty cool! This same indication system was translated by an intelligent designer to berries. red means you’re dead, white means you’re dead, red means eat me, white means eat me, green means you’re dead, and green means eat me. Using this effective list, you can determine which berries are safe to eat or not.

Finally, the banana has a pull tab at the top that makes it easy to open. This method is so useful, that humans are the only animals that open a banana this way. Monkeys, masters of the banana, open bananas by pinching the other end and peeling away the layers. This turns the stem into a handle that you can squeeze when you get to the bottom of the banana (or is it the top?) and conveniently force the remaining bit out without getting banana stuff all over your hands. The pull tab is a convenient aspect of fruits. Just one pull on any fruit’s pull tab will allow access to the delicious snack inside, whether it be the pull tab on a papaya or a coconut.

Does the banana prove anything about an intelligent designer? No, it does not. Finding one example that works in a specific context does not make a valid argument. The only thing worse is choosing a bad example.

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Sandok

I agree with you that intelligent design is just lame and thank god, it's not taught over here but mate, this really belongs in the Politcal And Religious debate forum...

YAYitsAndrew

Ah you're right, I forgot it exists, don't look down that far. Could a mod move it?

edit: that was fast

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"It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters."
- Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism

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www.yayitsandrew.com

Sandok

Hahaha I am a good mod aren't I?

Anyways though, the problem is that as long as people want to disprove the existence of no god, we will have to study such methods which I find appalaing since it has nothing to do with science.

It's the easy answer to everything... Why do we have 5 fingers? Intelligent design... Why do we orbit the sun in the same direction as the other planets? Intelligent design... Etc.

The sad thing is that there is ALWAYS a true scientifical answer. And if there isn't one NOW, there will be in the future.

Rasta Monsta

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Sandok

Oh come on rasta, tis an expression I say Jesus and Thank god all the time And if you notice, no capital for god

But yeah, ironic none the less

OmegaRED

Ok smartass I know intelligent design exists just look at the trees they were made for us to climb. Take a maintain side, God made that so we could climb it too its all part of His plan.

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Sandok

I got no clue Omega if you are serious or no....

BWX

A banana is maybe a bad example.. yeah who cares about fruit.

How about this? How did something as complex as the human brain evolve from a puddle of goo? Where did DNA come from? I have heard all the theories.. some interesting, but none remotely possible. From the structure of an atom to the vastness of the known universe- it is enough to make you realize that maybe mankind doesn't know it all like some people seem to think.

This is a never ending debate.. no one can prove either side.. whether you believe in intelligent design or not, you can never totally prove either side to be true. When looking around at the world as we know it- I think there is more going on than just a random sequence of events that happened to pop us into existence and at the same time give us the ability to acknowledge our existence.

The fact that you can sit there in your hole and type this message out to the entire world instantly is pretty freaking amazing if you think about it.. The fact that you can form a thought is amazing.. people take so much for granted. They get so filled up with hate that they forget to look around and think that maybe something bigger than we can see is out there somewhere.

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Falstaff

would it matter?

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Sandok

It wasn't just one puddle mate... Study the prehistoric earth atmoshpere and landscape before you vulgarize it that much. And DNA doesn't exist in everything we know of... It first started off as RNA and from what scientists have been doing, it's quite logical to understand. You mustn't forget that a VERY important part of this is called : TIME. Without the billions of years since the creation of the earth, we'd never have had any life.

You see, the earth had a rich atmopshere with random molecules which were quite heavy like CO2, N2, H20 and all. Now as the earth cooled (something compressed makes heat and then slowly looses it), the molecules started to compact together and with the energy of storms and space radiation, many of these inorganique molecues started to bind together to form the most common of organique molecules like C6H1206 (glucose) and all.

Now once oyu have orgnanique material, it's not that far from life mate (I can explain but who really cares?) And mankind doesn't know everything at all, otherwise we'd be off this ruddy planet. However, did god plan to destory the entire human world in 3 billion years when the sun will blow? Or in 10 billion when another galaxy will crash into us? I doubt it... We are just a TINY spec of micorscopic dust lost in the vastness of the universe. No god gives a damn... No god exists but that's another subject

Wow my longest post ever

OmegaRED

My intention

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BWX

Yes I know all about the building blocks and how the desperate scientists think they know how it all evolved.. It's bunk- one thing doesn't explain the other. All the time in eternity wouldn't make a blob of goo somehow form into a living thing. One celled or not.. They can't prove anything, it is all just grabbing at straws.. If they could prove anything we wouldn't be having this conversation.

How about the fact that when they measure the age of the universe, that some galaxies are older than it is remotely possible for the entire universe to be? What about dark matter? What about the fact that there are so many holes in the big gang bang theory that it doesn't even make sense anymore? I realize you are only taught one theory, so I don't hold it against you or anyone else for not questioning the "brilliant" minds that thought up that stuff.. but I don't buy it.


And yeah it was one puddle.. the theory says it must have happened "somewhere" first.. unless you think it happened at the exact same instant in more than one place, in which case you have a lot of faith in your teachers.

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Sandok

You'd be surprised... In a stable enviromment, nothing will happen but the earth of old is far from stable. And scientistcs will make theories before having solid proof. It's the only way humanity moves forward. Imagine where we would be if we still believed that life is as unique as it is random... There is an evolution and it isn't difficult to prove at all if the other person is willing not to call other things "bunk"

Falstaff

All things...and I mean all things must come to end...including the very world we stand on.. If it makes people feel better, then intelligent design works I suppose...

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YAYitsAndrew

It's widely accepted that certain eukaryotic organelles, like mitochondria, arose from bacteria; check out endosymbiosis. It is not hard to imagine how simple symbiotic prokaryotic organisms began to develop advantageous traits by working together. Is it much of a stretch to say that these teams then formed into a single structure during evolutionary reproduction?

I don't think you can say things like "the big bang theory doesn't make sense anymore" and "an eternity wouldn't make a blob of goo form something" without any proof to back it up. Those are baseless statements, vague, and not founded in anything but your own conjectures.

The truth is we've learned a lot by studying evolutionary patterns and molecular biology. Where do you think all that insulin comes from? It's made by introducing a plasmoid containing insulin-producing DNA into simple bacteria like e.coli, putting it in a nutrient-rich goo, and extracting the insulin as they rapidly reproduce.

You can go back and say how did the first simple organism get here (perhaps carried on a meteor?) but you can't deny a century of result-producing research and medical advances based on our knowledge of evolution and biological history.

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"It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters."
- Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism

So you think piracy isn't hurting anyone?
www.yayitsandrew.com

BWX

Well the whole evolution thing is quite different than intelligent design.. "Evolution" can happen to a certain degree and maybe set in motion by something else. That is more believable to me than life randomly happening. I can't get past that part.

Also- I think it would be much more likely that there is life beyond our own earth if intelligent design is in some way responsible. Probably a lot more life out there.. but I would think created by some outside force than randomly happening from a lightning strike in a puddle of amino acids that landed on a suitable planet form a comet.. or whatever the theory of the day is. And even if life DID start like that.. who is to say some outside force did not plan it? Lets say the big bang is how the universe started (although that is highly unlikely given what we have found out in the past 20 years)... even if that is how the universe started, maybe that bang was part of some bigger plan.

How do you explain what there was before the big bang? Did the universe not exist at all? Was all the material was pure energy? Where did the energy come from? There are too many extremely important unanswered questions to start believing some nutty professor who thinks he knows how it all "started".... I use the word "started" very loosely.

If you start really thinking about it- those guys don't know any more about the beginning of the universe than my cat knows about calculus. it's almost laughable really.. if they weren't indoctrinating young impressionable minds with it all over the world.

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BWX

Yeah I can go back to what we are actually talking about here, the first organism.. More specifically the first life. See that word? Hard to get around it.

The only problem is the "result producing research" means absolutely squat when defining the beginning of life on this planet.. You just said yourself you have no idea when or where or how the first organism got here. All those theories about a one celled organism turning into a human being are preposterous.



Perhaps monkeys will fly out of my buttoxal area.. Just as likeley..

EDIT- ok lets say it did come from a meteor..

Where did the meteor come from? Planet BWX? Planet Driverheaven? How did the living cell make it through the vacuum of space? That is just so funny I think actually wet myself a little bit laughing about it. Hey - I am getting old.

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YAYitsAndrew

Carefull not to become victim to the fallacy I so carefully laid out in my paper. Just because we don't know how the first instant of life started on this planet does not disprove any part of evolution or natural selection.

If you've noticed, we don't even have a clear definition of the debate. This is one of the biggest problems with intelligent design. They try to stifle acceptance of evolution, but that is no longer where the question lies.

__________________
"It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters."
- Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism

So you think piracy isn't hurting anyone?
www.yayitsandrew.com

Falstaff

yes...as a person that believes in a higher power or a divine being responsible for the world we live in, then I must conclude that we are subject to the will or whim of the supreme power.

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BWX

Ah but there is the problem. It is like trying to describe the taste of a hamburger to a computer..

You are trying to solve a philosophical question with a scientific answer.
Intelligent design and evolution both start somewhere right? Science cannot yet describe the beginning, so people can argue all day about it and get nowhere.

If neither side can be proven wrong, then why would you hate one side or the other? Your belief that a meteor brought life here is no more credible or valid than "some other force" or some other intelligence bringing it here. That doesn't even have to mean "God" or any religious figure. It could mean green little guys from some wormhole..

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Sandok

But that's the thing... Just because one part of the theory isn't proven, people block their minds and just jump onto the intelligent design bandwagon.

Meteors, comets and space debris are the likely causes for life to begin with but again, most people won't believe till they see it (which will be our doom at the same time)

And of course, everything can be done vice versa... Who said there is a power that can control everything? That to me sounds a billion times more far fetched than anything. A super power that governs all or the power of chance and misschance?

All we know for the MOMENT is that the universe of old didn't have time and that is impossible for us to imagine since all of our laws in physics and science base off time.

That is such a lame comment... These people with the best minds in the world who think and work on a subject as difficult and vaste as this are as smart as your cat? Great respect man...

Zelig

I've read this in a few of your posts in the past, and although I can't speak for everybody I think you are misinterpreting what many people think. We do not think that mankind knows it all, that viewpoint is diametrically opposed to what most scientists think. We know that the majority of the things in the universe remain undiscovered, however, we seek explanations for them.

Sources?

What about it?

You're right, let's just ignore the every qualified scientist's opinion, as well as the Vatican's support of the big bang theory, they are not perfectly complete theories, so they must be wrong.

I don't know about YAYitsAndrew in particular, but I've been taught a number of theories regarding the creation of the universe, including the theory that the universe has been around forever, the big bang theory and the ekpyrotic universe theory. I do not feel that I've yet learned enough mathematics and physics to be able to make accurate claims as to which theories are more likely, therefore, I will have to rely upon the opinions of those who are qualified to make such claims.

The theory of evolution is separate from the origin of life. There is no controversy remaining regarding the theory of evolution among the overwhelming majority of scientists. The origin of life is a completely different matter, and whatever belief you choose to hold about the origin of life is in fact compatible with the modern theory of evolution.

Maybe it was, but this can never be proven or disproven, similar to a 20 minute year old universe theory. There can never even be any facts presented supporting or denying it, so there's little point in discussing it.

Answers to your questions according to the most widely believed version of the big bang theory:

The "universe" as we know it did not exist, most laws of physics did not hold, and time itself was nonexistant.
Energy and matter are interchangable. All of it was compressed into a very small volume.
We don't know very specifically what was around before the big bang. String theorists are working on it. If you know anything regarding the mathematics behind string theory, I'd be happy to attempt to discuss it with you. (Not implying anything about you, simply that I don't yet have much education regarding such advanced mathematics/physics)
There's no "nutty professor" who thinks he knows how it all started. The vast majority of the scientific community think they know what was most probable in increasingly shrinking amounts of time following the big bang.

What should be taught to people instead?

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BWX

Known facts..



And you have NEVER heard that stars and galaxies are older than the known universe?

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Sandok

Well that DEFINATELY rules out intelligent design since it ain't based on any fact

Nope I'm new to this too... Please do post some links... I love astronomy but what you are telling me is a first!

YAYitsAndrew

That rules out evolution and intelligent design, so let's go with the one that at least has some scientific backing too it, not a stupid banana story. My original claim still holds; intelligent design does not have a scientific or logically sound leg to stand on.

__________________
"It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters."
- Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism

So you think piracy isn't hurting anyone?
www.yayitsandrew.com

BWX

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12690177/

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BWX

Neither does Evolution, especially the part of evolution where there was no life... you know, before it "appeared" so that it could evolve.

Appeared from where? I dunno.. I still haven't heard a solid theory about that.. meteor and lightning.. any more?

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Sandok

Okay dude I'll scan my biology book for you... Much more detailed that what I can write.

Don't tell me you also think dinosaurs were killed by intelligent design and not by a meteor?... Please, you such question everything but offer no real alternative with tangiable evidence.

BWX

:-/

Based on the same science man..

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